Avodah Mailing List

Volume 42: Number 60

Wed, 04 Sep 2024

• 1. Re: [TA] Toras Aish - Re'eh (Michael Poppers)
• 2. Re: walk humbly (Isaac Balbin)
• 3. Re: walk humbly (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Murder a Chok or Logically Compelling also KaVuA, OBriens Meat (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: O'Brien's Quality Meat - Kol DePorish MeRubbah Porish also KaVuA, OBriens Meat (Micha Berger)
• 6. O'Brien's Quality Meat - Kol DePorish MeRubbah Porish also KaVuA, OBriens Meat (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 7. Murder a Chok or Logically Compelling also KaVuA, OBriens Meat (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 8. rosh chodesh av (Joel Rich)
• 9. Tzedaka allocations (Joel Rich)
• 10. Every Bullet Has Its Address (Akiva Miller)

Cc:ing as per this Webpage <https://www.rabbiwein.com/contact-us.php>.

A bit disappointed to see this (also available at
https://www.rabbiwein.com/blog/post-2579.html):
> *Wein Online*
<snip>
The parsha of Re?eh always falls in the month of Elul, .... <

All the best from
*Michael Poppers* * Elizabeth, NJ, USA
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?
> On 1 Sep 2024, at 12:51?PM, R? YG Bechhoffer
> wrote:
> 
> To be melamed zechus on RYBS, I think he may mean that the individual
> (the lonely man of faith) should be able to find satisfaction in his one
> internal sense of accomplishment, whether he is applauded or not. But
> the use of the term "anonymity" is imprecise.

I?m not sure why you are trying to do a Tosfos on the Rav?s prose ? was it
not both R Chaim and the Chafetz Chaim (and others) who were quite
comfortable being anonymous on a train with those accompanying them only
discovering later (to their horror) with whom they had been conversing (in
tones they would otherwise never have assumed?) Wasn?t it the Rav himself
who was visiting his wife?s Tziyun and someone asked him to say ?the
prayers? at another Kever and that someone never knew who it was despite
offering successively larger dollar amounts until he discovered later that
it was the Rav (and subsequently made a big donation to the Yeshivah)?	It
seems Pashut, that unlike perhaps *some* of the Rebbes who either don?t or
could not manage to adopt a level of anonymity, the Brisker lonely man of
faith saw this type of anonymity as desirable!

On Sun, Sep 01, 2024 at 03:11:06PM +1000, Isaac Balbin via Avodah wrote:
>            It seems Pashut, that unlike perhaps some of the Rebbes
> who either don't or could not manage to adopt a level of anonymity,
> the Brisker lonely man of faith saw this type of anonymity as desirable!

In the case of many forms of Chassidus, the role of the rebbe requires
them to remain on a pedestal, whether they like it or not. Being looked
up to is part of how they charismatically lead people to HQBH.

There are stories of rabbeim who did things to not let it get to
themselves, whether the occasional self-imposed exile (praveneh galus)
or keeping a literal pedal in one's shoe or some other way not to get
used to the opulent lifestyle.

Ruzhin is a famously major case, as they used wealth and trappings of
a royal court to create an atmosphere. "Derekh haMelekh". They say R
Yisrael Friedman, the Ruzhiner Rebbe, wore boots adorned with gold an
diamonds -- but had no soles!

I am reporting, not endorsing. I also think there are people with more
chassidish backgrounds who may have found this post remedial. But we all
move in different circles.

Still the idea that a rebbe taught an approached that required him to be
in a limelight, that should be confused with an inability for tzenius.

Chodesh Tov!
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Here is the test to find whether your mission
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   on Earth is finished:
Author: Widen Your Tent      if you're alive, it isn't.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                      - Richard Bach

On Sun, Aug 25, 2024 at 03:00:40PM +1000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
> Your illustration Micha,
> A surgeon who can save 5 people
> by randomly selecting and killing an uninvolved person
> 
> is not at all similar to those stranded in the boat
...

But I didn't say they were similar.

I said that your question presumes Consequentialism, ie that the most
ethical choice is the one with the best outcome for the most people.
And then I gave the textbook argument against Consequentialism and in
favor of Deontology. (Which is the idea that the ethical choice is the one
that follows some set of rules.) Then I suggested that the Torah takes
a third route, or maybe a particular subflavor of Deontology, called
Virtue Ethics. Ie that our primary concern is Middos Tovos ("virtues').

I also gave reasons why hashkadah would be inconsistent with
Consequentialism: (1) If life has infinite value, you cannot compare
the magnitude of two possible outcomes -- they're both infinite. (2)
If people can only act, but success and outcomes are in HQBH's hands,
then we should certainly be forcussed on acting correctly rather than
the best outcome.

Without assuming Consequentialism, the fact that the person you turn in
would have died anyway doesn't matter that much. The question is what
actions are you taking and what is the Torah's code of behavior. Whether
in your case about starving people on a boat or the gemara's case where
everyone was threatened with death unless they turned in Sheva ben Bikhri,
which was only permitted because of details specific to that case.

Chodesh Tov!
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 People were created to be loved.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   Things were created to be used.
Author: Widen Your Tent      The reason why the world is in chaos is that
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    things are being loved, people are being used.

On Sun, Aug 25, 2024 at 03:00:40PM +1000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
> >> He makes a BBQ and invites his neighbour
> >> as they are enjoying this repast
> >> he regales his friends with the story and his find and his Rabbi's Pesak.
> 
> >> One of the friends says
> >> Hey I saw A box falling off Obriens Neveilah truck in that precise location
> 
> This observation changes nothing bcs
> it does not make it KaVuA for anyone not even for the chap who saw if fall
> off the truck
> there is already a Pesak that it is Muttar.

Your claim seems to me to be inconsistent with Tosafos's definiition (Chullin
95a "sefeiqo assur") of qavua or R Aqiva Eiger's teshuvah #136.

Tosafos: qavua is when the item that is assur isn't niqar.

So, the observation would remove the qavua nature the pasaq was based upon.

RAE literally defines qavua as being when the cheftza issur was once
observed. Rov works when we don't know the metzi'us. Qavua is when
we knew the metzi'us, but now are mesupaqim about an item that had an
existing din. (Safeiq in metzi'us vs safeiq in din.)

> This parallels what you have probably heard before
> a grandmother was married, lost her husband in the Churban of Europe,
> {May HKBH Avenge Their Blood and may we see it with our own eyes}
> was granted a Hetter to marry which she did
> and now when meeting the families of her engaged grandchild
> discovers someone who remembers her and her husband
> and is aware that her first husband was not dead at the time she got
> remarried.

And when it was found out, the kid would be relabled a mamzer. Assuming
the rabbanim couldn't through heroic effort avoid that outcome.

Your proof itself would need a proof.

Chodesh Tov!
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 I thank God for my handicaps, for, through them,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   I have found myself, my work, and my God.
Author: Widen Your Tent                   - Helen Keller
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

Please tell us more about Tosafos's definition (Chullin 95a "sefeiqo
assur") that qavua describes a case where the item that is assur is NOT
niqar.

Do you, R Micha, mean to say that Porish means that the item in Q IS
Nikkar.
Why is one case Nikkar whilst the other is not?

Do you mean Nikkar where the Safek begins?
Kavua begins in the shop [the shopper was not attentive] and in the shop he
certainly can identify if it is K or not

whilst Porish means the Safek begins in the street where it cannot be
identified. [he never had the ability to identify, even though it
certainly came from a shop where it could have been identified]

R Micha explains RAE - qavua is when the cheftza issur was once observed.
[the Safek begins in the shop where there is no TaAroves]
we knew the metzi'us, but now are in doubt [he cannot recall which shop he
went into]
this terminology - Safeiq in metzi'us vs safeiq in din - does not provide
clarity
Rov is when we don't know the metzi'us. [the Safek begins in the street
where there is a virtual TaAroves]

It seems simpler to describe that Rov can only apply where there is a
TaAroves, a mixture; the Safek is created by there being a real or virtual
mixture.
Whereas KaVuA is a Safek not generated by a mixture but by our not knowing
if we bought the non-K sausages for the dog or the K for the family.

If a fellow comes home with two bags of snags
5 non-K for the dog in one bag and 7 Kosher for the family in another bag
drops them to answer the telephone
and some time later detects the aroma of BBQ
to discover his daughter grilling 12 sausages

they are all K
it is no longer KaVuA

this is not precisely the same as Obriens QMeats


Best,

Meir G. Rabi

0423 207 837
+61 423 207 837
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R Micha, you wrote - Consequentialism - the best outcome for the most people
-
but not in all circumstances
only where someone is anyway going to die, the boat example
or where someone will certainly be killed, what makes your blood redder
than his?

R Micha seemed to equating those cases to taking a random fellow
and killing them for spare parts

R Micha proposes that Torah calls for Virtue Ethics
that our primary concern is Middos Tovos ("virtues')

No Rashi says it is determined by what HKBH sees
one life is as good as any other life
and two lives is always better than one life

That the entire town must sacrifice their life
rather than give up one person
is due to the Mitzvah of Kiddush HaShem
Those demanding that the town hand someone over
when they could just as easily kill that person themselves
but demand the town hand them over
are being forced to demean HKBH - it is a Kiddush HaShem issue.

Imagine if they would break into the town and are searching for this fellow
would we be required to fight them
knowing that we cannot in the normal course of events, be successful
and will certainly be killed;
in order to save this Yid they want to murder?




Best,

Meir G. Rabi

0423 207 837
+61 423 207 837
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What is the proper attitude to have onrosh chodesh av given it?s the start
of the nine days (sad) and but also rosh chodesh (happy)? Is it a dialectic
state of mind?
Bsorot tovot
joel ric
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Tzedaka is an area that I?ve found fascinating for a while. IMHO
halacha/hashkafa provides general guidelines, but leaves a lot up to the
individual. I?ve often thought that the process involved in allocations is
a wonderful opportunity to clarify one?s own thinking as to hkbh?s
priorities. When one just gives to a general fund, their funds may be
allocated correctly, but they may miss an opportunity for growth. Thoughts?
bsorot tovot
joel rich
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"They" say that every bullet has a predestined name and address.
Unfortunately, I don't know who "they" are, and Google wasn't any help
either.

Nevertheless, I found pasuk 19:5 in this week's parsha to be relevant. The
context is a wood-chopper who doesn't realize that his axe is defective:
"If the iron slips off the axe, and it finds [matza] someone and he dies"
then the wood-chopper must go to an Ir Miklat. I find the verb "matza" to
be very significant: "If the iron finds its victim".

The pasuk could so easily have used a different verb, such as "If the iron
*hits* someone and he dies." But no, it specifically chose the word "find",
suggesting sentience, as if to say that the iron was searching for a
specific victim, just like in the metaphor of each bullet having a specific
destination. [Hmmm... it is only at this moment that I have noticed a
connection between "destiny" and "destination".]

Indeed, the next pasuk testifies that the person wielding the axe had no
prior ill will towards the victim. The tree-chopper was not out to get that
guy, but the axe-head *was*. To me, this clearly supports the idea that
Hashem saw fit for this victim to die at this time and in this manner, and
that the tree-chopper was simply Hashem's tool for this to happen.

Any other thoughts?

Akiva Miller
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