Avodah Mailing List

Volume 42: Number 57

Fri, 23 Aug 2024

• 1. Re: Mamzeirim Not an Issue - Eventually they are lost in the population & Ben PeKuAh (Danny Schoemann)
• 2. Deputy Ministers (Joseph Kaplan)
• 3. Re: Deputy Ministers (Micha Berger)
• 4. Lost and Found (Joel Rich)
• 5. Re: Murder a Chok or Logically Compelling (Micha Berger)
• 6. Numerology (Joel Rich)
• 7. Re: O'Brien's Quality Meat - Kol DePorish MeRubbah Porish (Micha Berger)

Re Ben PeKuAh:
I don't see anybody referring to the Bartenura (on the Rishonim/Achronim
border) who says on the Mishna in Chulin 4:5 that we pasken like Chachomim
(against Rebbi Shimon who says that even an 8 year old Ben PeKuAh doesn't
need shechita).

In which case, l'Halocho, (as per R' A. B.) once the Ben PeKuAh has stepped
on the ground, it needs kosher Shechita.

- Danny, finishing round 39 of Shas Mishnayoth.
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? I would like to see Sivan Rahav-Meir become the second female prime
minister of Israel.? Caroline Glick would be another great choice.? I
believe that Rav Kook would have reversed his psak if he were alive today,
with the changed circumstances that now prevail.? (42/56)

Putting aside my friend Toby?s political opinions which, unsurprisingly,
differ from mine, I?m happy to see that we agree that halacha can change
with the times and circumstances. ?

Joseph
Sent from my iPhone

On Tue, Aug 20, 2024 at 4:30pm UTC, R Joseph Kaplan replied to something
Rn Toby Katz wrote in v42n56:
>> I believe that Rav Kook would have reversed his psak if he were alive today,
>> with the changed circumstances that now prevail." (42/56)

> Putting aside my friend Toby's political opinions which, unsurprisingly,
> differ from mine, I'm happy to see that we agree that halacha can change
> with the times and circumstances.

I think it's rarely a real change. In the vast majority of cases,
we recognize the precedent as binding. We instead note a change in
circumstances that mean something significant change that makes that
apparent precedent as irrelevent. And that the already existing halakhah
needs to be applied to a new case -- which produces a new outcome.

For example, a deaf mute who can learn and communicate through a sign
language like ASL isn't in the same situation as a cheireish. We didn't
change the dinim for cheireish; we found that the existing laws simply
had underlying assumptions that don't apply after means of communication
were invented.

RAYK's pesaq was based on the idea that the state wouldn't allow women
sufferage, thereby avoiding women having sherarah. But if the electoral
body includes women having sherarah either way, the motive for the
his saying it is prohibited is undecut. Instead other aspects of our
lives would be made more difficult by losing votes, but for no to'eles.

A mashal: It's like a Focault's Pendulum, found in science museums. If
you return to one at different times of the day, it will look like it
is swinging back and forth at a different angle.*

But the appearance of change isn't because the pendulum changes, but
because the earth turns underneath it while the pendulum's swinging does
not. The context changes, but the pendultume stays fix. The changing
angle to the observer is actually a product of how *fixed* the swinging
actually is!

(*The rate at which the plane of a Focault's pendulum swings changes
is a function of the pendulum's latitude. At the north and south poles,
it would complete a circle daily. At the equator, not at all. I assumed
a visit to a science museum that wasn't on the equator. Which is a safe
assumption, since they would be unlikely to bother with this particular
exhibit.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Brains to the lazy
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   are like a torch to the blind --
Author: Widen Your Tent      a useless burden.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF               - Bechinas haOlam

I recently heard a story of a rabbi who found a prayer book that somebody
had left behind in the synagogue. He opened it and saw post it notes with
personal reflections on some of the prayers. This raised several questions
in my mind. A prayer book left in the synagogue, is that considered a lost
object that you must try to return or should you assume that the owner will
come back for it? If the former, is one allowed to do anything but look for
identifying marks (but not read the notes)?
Bsorot Tovot
Joel Rich
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On Tue, Aug 06, 2024 at 10:44:18AM +1000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
> Where this illustration is offered
> people stranded on a boat, where rescue is most unlikely. All will die of
> starvation unless they kill one (or one volunteers - would it be a Mitzvah
> for this person to kill themselves?) and the others will survive by
> consuming this person's flesh.

> Logic concludes that since they're anyway going to die, they ought to
> choose life by randomly choosing one to kill.
> Torah however rules that this is prohibited as murder, a gezeirat ha'katuv.

You're thinking like a Consequentialist, that ethical decisions are based
on which gives the most ethical outcome.

But the famous / infamous Troley Problem and its variants are all about
showing the limitations of Consequentialism.

What I think is a more obvious example: A surgeon has 5 patients who
will die if they don't get transplants. Should she go out in the street
and kill an innocent healthy person for their organs to save 5? I mean,
net-net, the world would be ahead 4 lives!

The Torah more deontological, where morality is based on whether or not
rules followed.

So far, I thought of two ways to think about the gemara about a whole
group dying rather than turning in one of the group (unless he is
chayav misah, like Sheva ben Bikhri).

The compring infinities approach:
If human life or happiness are of infinite value, then 5 people aren't
more valuable than one. It's infinity either way.

Or the Bitachon approach:
All human beings can do is act. It's up to HQBH how things turn out. So,
morality depends on the choice of action. As outcome is never entirely
one's choice.

But as someone who wants more Tenu'as haMussar in the world, I would
argue that the Torah has a Virtue Ethic. The moral choice is one that
is consistent with expressing and reinforcing the right virtues (Middos).
Which would also get you to a more Deontological approach.

...
> Are cojoined babies with two heads one or two lives?

Menachos 37a:
    Pelimo asked Rabbi: "If a person has two heads, on which should he
    place his tefillin?"

    He said to him: "Either get up and go to exile, or accept upon
    yourself excommunication."

    In the meantime, a man came by and said: "A child was born to me
    with two heads. How much do I have to pay to the kohen [ie one pidyon
    haben or two]?"

Tosafos (ad loc, "o qum gali") quotes a Medrash Rabba, in which Ashmodai
presents Shelomo haMelekh with a man with two heads. He marries, and
some of the couple's children have one had, and some two. Shelomo gets
the case when the man died, There was a fight over the yerushah where
the two headed sons wanted the inheritance to be divided by head, giving
them two portions each. Shelomo blindfolds one head and put hot water on
the other. If both heads felt the pain, they were counted as one person.

Whether or not that answers your question depends on whether you assume
midrashim necessarily conform to halakhah. An aggadita vs halakhah thing.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Between stimulus & response, there is a space.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   In that space is our power to choose our
Author: Widen Your Tent      response. In our response lies our growth
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    and our freedom. - Victor Frankl, (MSfM)

The Rambam in Hilchot Avel 5:1 says:

These are the matters forbidden to a mourner on the first day according to
Scriptural Law and on the remaining [six] days according to Rabbinic Law.
He is forbidden to cut his hair, launder his clothes, wash, anoint himself,
engage in sexual relations, wear shoes, perform work, study the Torah,
stand his bed upright, leave his head uncovered, and greet others, eleven
matters in total

IIRC this is not the only place he has a list and then tells you how many
items there are in the list. Any insights as to why adding the number of
items is important?
Bsorot Tovot
Joel Rich
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On Sun, Aug 11, 2024 at 12:02:15AM +1000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
> an unlabeled box of meat falls off O'Brien's Quality Meat truck.
> A Yid sees the box, has no idea where it came from and says, isn't this Kol
> DePorish MeRubbah Porish?
...
> You saw A box, probably this box, fall off O'Brien's truck.
> ARE YOU PERMITTED TO EAT?
> IF YOU DO NOT EAT ARE YOU AN APIKORES?

Wouldn't your observation itself break the rov to turn it into a possible
qavua?

:-)BBii!
-Micha


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