Avodah Mailing List

Volume 42: Number 43

Sat, 22 Jun 2024

• 1. shaliach tzibbur practices (Joel Rich)
• 2. requests in rosh chodesh musaf (Joel Rich)
• 3. Re: material success (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Onaah and economic models (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Onaah and economic models (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: shechina image (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: 2nd day yom tov (Micha Berger)

Has anyone heard a reason why the practice of the shaliach tzibbur saying
the bracha on hallel first (followed by the kahal) was established?
Similarly, the rabbi/shaliach tzibbur counting sfira? (other than so
everyone knows the date or so to be yotzei with him if you forgot a day)
bsorot tovot
joel rich
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Any thoughts on the ordering of the requests in rosh chodesh musaf, in
particular why are mchilat cheit and slichat avon at the end when in the
weekday shmoneh esrai they are at the beginning? (I understood their
weekday placement was based on prioritizing the closeness of our
relationship with HKBH before asking for our personal needs.)
bsorot tovot
joel rich
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On Wed, Jun 05, 2024 at 05:47:21AM +0300, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote:
> My comment on the most recent Tradition :
> https://traditiononline.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Tradition-Spring-2024-SUMMIT.pdf
> 
> A very sad read. I'd suggest that much of the phenomenon is due to the
> wrong frame of reference (what everyone else has) rather than
> ... 'Zusha, why weren't you Zusha?' ..."

I could only get the table of contents, so here are my thoughts on the
topic as a whole:

An aspect of our shift from striving for Ehrlichkeit to striving for
Frumkeit, was a more functionalist relationship with Hashem as well.

Parashas Emor brackets Shavuos with mitzvos that thank Hashem for what
he gave us -- Omer and Bikkurim -- on one side, and mitzvos that emulate
Him by sharing that largesse with others on the other side -- Leqet and
Pei'ah.

We are a pre-Shavuos culture. We relate to G-d like an ATM. We do the
right things, mitzvos and segulos, in hopes of connecting to the Source.
So far so good, but... With a focus on how to be happy, to get what we
want, what we *think* are our needs.

So of course we are comparing what we got with what they got.

Judaism as Ol Mitzvos and Ol Malkhus Shamayim doesn't really define our
in-practice (mimetic) culture, r"l. If it did, there wouldn't be only
discussion of Chassidishe (and Novhardiker) prescriptive Bitachon. Of the
"trust in G-d and it will all work out in a way that makes you happy" sort.
And more of what the Chazon Ish calls Bitachon; descriptively believing
that things turn out according to the Divine Plan, and if not in a way that
makes you happy, in a way that maximizes your life's purpose and meaning.

Look at what R Shimon haKohein Shkop has to say about Yismach Moshe
beMatenas Chelqo (tr. mine from Widen Your Tent sec 1.2, pg 54
<https://www.aishdas.org/ShaareiYosher.pdf#page=5>). R Shimon notes that
not only do we describe Moshe as happy with his cheileq, but "bematnas
chelqo" -- with the fact that it was given. It didn't need to be maasei
yadav.

    In this way one may explain that which is said, "Moshe will be
    joyous with the giving of his portion, because You called him a
    reliable servant" [Shabbos Morning Amidah], that there is no joy in
    receiving the aspect of wisdom [9] unless he is a reliable servant who
    possesses nothing, that it is all his master's and lord's. Only then
    there is complete joy in acquiring wisdom. Without this [attitude]
    it is possible that there is no happiness in acquiring wisdom,
    for through it he is capable of reaching heresy.
    ...
    [9] Rav Shimon here is utilizing an idiom we find in the berachah
    made when seeing a Torah sage, "[shechalaq meichokhmaso liyrei'av'] --
    Who apportioned from His Wisdom to those who revere Him."

But only because he understood that his wealth is a tool for helping others,
and not just for himself. That is what it means to be an Eved Hashem.

(According to R Shimon. Other derakhim exist, of course. But I am
naturally going to post from my own perspective. Whether or not the post
itself acknowledges that fact with a paragraph like this one.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Feeling grateful  to or appreciative of  someone
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   or something in your life actually attracts more
Author: Widen Your Tent      of the things that you appreciate and value into
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    your life.         - Christiane Northrup, M.D.

On Mon, Jun 10, 2024 at 02:09:14PM +0200, Arie Folger via Avodah wrote:
> The premise behind coming onaah is that good are commodities asked they
> have an approximate market price. This is definitely true for some good,
> but it's it the rule out the exception?

A major problem we have for understanding Ona'ah is the economic system
chazal lived under.

The "sha'ar" refers to a fixed market price. In chazal's day, the
government fixed commodity prices. Maybe for all commodities, maybe only
for necessary staples. I don't know.

In any case, the problems of defining ona'ah were much simpler for Chazal
than for us living in economies with far more open markets.


R Asher Weiss (Mishpetei Aretz vol III, Hal' BALC 10:47) presents
a machloqes:

The BY (CM 209:1) holds that there is no ona'ah if there is no fixed
market price.

However, the Rama (Darchei Moshe CM 209:1), the Bach, Taz, and the
derishah (all ibid) all hold that if there is a common market price,
onaah applies.

RAW himself holds like the BY, believing it's shitas haRosh (13:20).

The Sheivet haLeivi (5:218) holds like the Ashkenazi rishonim and dismisses
the Rosh as irreleveant.


Also note: Onaah isn't a fairness thing, but a brotherhood one. Which is
why it only applies between Jews. I wonder if that means that any heterim
for ribis by corporate entities would apply to onaah as well?

Anyway, the siblings-don't-do-that nature means that onaah cannot be
waved by the seller simply saying "I want the sale to be valid regardless
of onaah." If it were about fairness, the buyer would simply be able to
be mocheil the money. The loss has to be more conscious than that. The
seller could make the sale stick only if he says "it usually costs X,
but I am charging you Y."

For the same reasoning, allowances are made for convenience stores,
because you are choosing to pay for convenience. And I would assume the
same is true for a can of soda at a restaurant.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   greater vanity in others; it makes us vain,
Author: Widen Your Tent      in fact, of our modesty.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF            -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980)

On Mon, Jun 10, 2024 at 02:09:14PM +0200, Arie Folger via Avodah wrote:
> The premise behind coming onaah is that good are commodities asked they
> have an approximate market price. This is definitely true for some good,
> but it's it the rule out the exception?

A major problem we have for understanding Ona'ah is the economic system
chazal lived under.

The "sha'ar" refers to a fixed market price. In chazal's day, the
government fixed commodity prices. Maybe for all commodities, maybe only
for necessary staples. I don't know.

In any case, the problems of defining ona'ah were much simpler for Chazal
than for us living in economies with far more open markets.


R Asher Weiss (Mishpetei Aretz vol III, Hal' BALC 10:47) presents
a machloqes:

The BY (CM 209:1) holds that there is no ona'ah if there is no fixed
market price.

However, the Rama (Darchei Moshe CM 209:1), the Bach, Taz, and the
derishah (all ibid) all hold that if there is a common market price,
onaah applies.

RAW himself holds like the BY, believing it's shitas haRosh (13:20).

The Sheivet haLeivi (5:218) holds like the Ashkenazi rishonim and dismisses
the Rosh as irreleveant.


Also note: Onaah isn't a fairness thing, but a brotherhood one. Which is
why it only applies between Jews. I wonder if that means that any heterim
for ribis by corporate entities would apply to onaah as well?

Anyway, the siblings-don't-do-that nature means that onaah cannot be
waved by the seller simply saying "I want the sale to be valid regardless
of onaah." If it were about fairness, the buyer would simply be able to
be mocheil the money. The loss has to be more conscious than that. The
seller could make the sale stick only if he says "it usually costs X,
but I am charging you Y."

For the same reasoning, allowances are made for convenience stores,
because you are choosing to pay for convenience. And I would assume the
same is true for a can of soda at a restaurant.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   greater vanity in others; it makes us vain,
Author: Widen Your Tent      in fact, of our modesty.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF            -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980)

On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 06:35:32AM +0300, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote:
> The S"A O"C 98:1 says that in tfila one should think as if the shechina is
> opposite them. What mental images do you conjure up to accomplish this?

Since I don't visualize the shechinah, I can't answer this. But in my
attempts to say the bare minimum with kavvanah, I do use visualization
during the first words of Birkhas Avos.

Barukh -- I picture of beam of light coming down into me, becoming me.
Sometimes it's a flow, like water. As from a Bereikhah.

Atah -- while the other end of the flow is infinitely far off, I and the
Source are connected by it. (And so, I am visualizing the flow of Shefa
of existence, not G-d Himself.) And I can call the Creator "Atah", have
an I-Thou relationship, because of that connection.

Broaden that flow to be universal. I am not the only one His Shefa
reaches, it reaches - and gives existence -- to everything. While the
G-d of "Barukh" is infinitely far off, fully Transcendent, now that
He is embuing everything with existence, as per Sheim Havayah, He is
everywhere, dealing with all of exitence in all its detail. With the
One-on-one attention that Middas Rachamim requires.

But we, in order to be people, with Bechirah Chofshi, need room to do
things. Rachamim requires a universe that runs by rules; Din can at times
be the greater Chessed. (Ask any parent who had to let their child fall
on their bum, because to always hold them to save them means the child
won't learn to walk.) Hashem Elokeinu...

Our Avos internalized the Divine Plan. They didn't require the same level
of distance. Elokeinu is a different relationship than Elokei Avoseinu,
one in which miracles are possible. People for whom Laws of Morality
and Ethics are more absolute than those of nature.

And so on. But at this point, you notice the meditation has gotten quite
far from the initial vizualization piece.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 I always give much away,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   and so gather happiness instead of pleasure.
Author: Widen Your Tent              -  Rachel Levin Varnhagen
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 06:37:31AM +0300, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote:
> The S"A (OC 496:3) discussed an israel in chul on 2nd day yom tov not being
> bound by restrictions unless he is within the tchum of a jewish community.
> Does this apply to bnai chul who keep one day in israel and then travel
> back to chul? ...

It would seem the derabbanan sticks very closely to the minhag it preserves.
And a minhag is a property of a community and it's history. When you are not
in a community, only your own minhag avos applies.

Makes sense, in retrospect.

And if that is the sevara, in your case the ben chu"l would be following
his own norm -- and 2 days after all.

But...

What about the resident of chu"l while they're still in Israel? Would
even the Chakham Tzevi or R Chaim Brisker say they must fully keep two
days when in Israel but outside the techum of a Jewish Community?

(Or is this whole linkage to techum only within the BY's shitah?)

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Live as if you were living already for the
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   second time and as if you had acted the first
Author: Widen Your Tent      time as wrongly as you are about to act now!
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF          - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning


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