Avodah Mailing List

Volume 42: Number 3

Fri, 12 Jan 2024

• 1. redemptive element in Jewish ?commercial ? law. (Joel Rich)
• 2. Re: What is it that HKBH asks of us - Students Teachers Acceptance Arguments Chanufa etc. (Micha Berger)
• 3. Shabbat Candle Burnout (Joel Rich)

My study of the Aruch Hashulchan choshen mishpat has made me realize more
than ever that while every society needs to have a set of rules to settle
financial disputes and damages, one really sees how there is an overarching
redemptive element to in Jewish ?commercial ? law.
Two recent examples I came across are in 163:1 and 157:1

In 157:1 while halacha generally recognizes the concept of communal
practice which can establish a right to a continued use (chazaka), when it
comes to hezek riah, even the existence of such a pre-existing practice is
not enforceable, and in fact, the practice needs to be changed. To me, the
overriding value of tzniut means that halacha presumes that nobody would
(or should) ever waive their right (really obligation) to privacy. In some
ways this mirrors the presumption that ?no one? would waive their right not
to have an open cesspool on their property boundary.

163:1 lists the communal requirements that community members can force each
other to contribute towards. In addition to city walls and gates, there is
an extensive list of priorities including a minimum library, synagogues,
mikveh, rabbi, chazen, shvitz and charitable institutions which support
needy citizens, visitors, children and hospitals.

Back when I worked for a living I would tell clients their organization
always has a value proposition ? show me your actions and I?ll tell you
what it is. Or as Emerson said, ?What you are stands over you the while,
and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary?
Comments?


bsorot tovot

Joel Rich
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On Wed, Dec 27, 2023 at 12:06:58PM +1100, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
> The earlier post,
> Rav Elchanan Wasserman (Kovetz Shiurim Bava Basra 633) in the name of Rav
> Chaim Soloveitchik - an Amora HAS THE POWER to disagree with a Tanna but
> would not do so in general. We therefore assume an Amora who disagrees was
> unaware of the Tanna' opinion.
> is in fact addressed by the Beis Yosef [Mamrim 2:1] answering his Q, why do
> the Amoraim not argue with the Tanaim?, because there is a CONVENTION not
> to argue;
> 
> WHY is that not an adequate answer?

Because we would then have to ask why the convention was broken, and
RCBrisker provides an answer: we can assume they didn't realize they were
beaking the convention, because they were unaware there was a tanna who
said otherwise.

>  but of course they CAN and SHOULD/MUST disagree when necessary.

> If I may, R Micha is saying, we MUST argue, but only when we're absolutely
> certain or 99% certain. If it's less than that, we must accept their
> superiority and that we have failed to understand them.

That doesn't resemblew what I tried to say.
> 
> Although R Micha wrote - the Amora is indeed OBLIGATED to express his
> opinion -

But also assume that halakhah lemaaseh, the tanna was more likely right.
Maybe the tanna's uqimta was different. Maybe there is some other answer.
The amora is obligated to search for that answer. But it would seem that
whether by obligation or convention, the amora would assume the tanna's
pesaq stands.

I returned to this thread because Arukh haShulchan Yomi is in YD 201,
and will shortly be getting to se'if 71. RYMEpstein is convinced he
has a pashat in the Rambam that is more compelling than that of the
Mechaber. And then he concludes the se'if with a parenthetic hagah
(Rashi script) which ends:
    ... but what can I do after the Beis Yoseif, the Bach, the Taz and
    the Shach "lo tofsu kein beda'ato" and le'aniyas daati it is as
    writen, vedo"q.

Then se'if 73 makes the point even more strongly:
    ... and Rabbeinu haBeis Yoseif cites the words of the Rambam in
    se'if 7, see there, and tzarikh iyun gadol. However, lemaaseh,
    chalila lanu lachaloq al Rabeinu haBY.

And mind you, the AhS's peshat in the Rambam is *lechumera*! Se'if
71 opens:
    And lefi aniyus daati, the opposite would seem to be the opinion of
    the Rambam, and he is more machir than all the posqim...

So, he has his opinion, but he won't be more *machmir* than the SA given
the consensus of earlier acharonim who agree with the SA's understanding.
Lo kol shekein lequla.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 I slept and dreamt that life was joy.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   I awoke and found that life was duty.
Author: Widen Your Tent      I worked and, behold -- duty is joy.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                      - Rabindranath Tagore

During a recent class we were discussing how long shabbat candles must
burn.  As part of the discussion, somebody mentioned the practice of
relighting shabbat candles after shabbat that had burnt out by themselves
on Shabbat. I hadn?t heard of this practice and neither had most of the
participants. I mentioned this practice at another class and it was not
known by the vast majority of the participants. In both classes no one knew
of a source (other than my parents did it)

Firstly. have (ask me if u want a copy) an excerpt from R'YBS on the
importance of folk sayings which I think applies as well to customs for
which we don?t know the source.  We should try to see the wisdom rather
than dismiss them out of hand.

With a little help from my friends (OK with a lot of help from Google and
the bar ilan database) I was able to track down several leads.  The chatam
softer in torat chaim (263) describes the burnout as a bad sign. He
mentions several practices in such a situation, including lighting an
additional candle each Shabbat  and relighting the candle after Shabbat
ends. He points to a parallel related to Yom Kippur. He also mentioned the
unrelated practice of adding a candle for each child, and concludes by
saying everybody does their own thing (each river runs its own course)



The Yom Kippur parallel can be found in Shulchan Aruch OC 610:4 which
discusses bringing many candles to the synagogue for Yom Kippur (we had
discussed this practice). He mentions that if they go out on Yom Kippur,
one should not ask a non-Jew to relight them, and one should simply relight
the candle after Yom Kippur, and commit to not putting out such candles. He
ascribes this to ancient customs.



The mishna brura on the spot adds a fastening insight - he knows that most
people are concerned when their candle goes out even though there?s really
no reason to be concerned, but since everybody does seem concerned, it?s
best if they bring the candle to Shul and give it to the shammas and not
look at it afterwards. Interestingly enough, the Aruch hashulchan also
talks about candles on Yom Kippur and mentions that they are a good sign
and actually beneficial to the souls that are no longer with us. He also
mentions that if a candle goes out it really shouldn?t be a big deal and
therefore it?s best to mix up your candles with others, so you won?t see
them. He has strong words about worrying about these kinds of ?bad omens?.
This is what my mother ZLL?HH used to teach me, you can either be religious
or superstitious, but not both.



He also mentions that the idea of relighting is a practice and it?s a sguli
type issue, which to me means don?t try to understand it.



 It also occurred to me, although I didn?t find any sources, that the
practice of relighting may be tied to a practice that some have of having
mlava malka candles so as to in some way extend the Shabbos spirit into
mlava malka. It sounds like a nice touch to me, much like using one?s lulav
as fuel for burning chametz.


I can send sources if interested - any other references would be appreciated


bsorot tovot

Joel Rich
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