Avodah Mailing List

Volume 41: Number 82

Mon, 20 Nov 2023

• 1. Re: Amora Differing with Tanna (Zvi Lampel)
• 2. Rabbanei Tzarfas (Was: Re: Does the psak of bet din evidence the ratzon hashem?) (Zvi Lampel)
• 3. Re: Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch on the parsha: Improper parenting (Akiva Miller)
• 4. Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch on the parsha: Improper parenting (Joseph Kaplan)
• 5. Re: Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch on the parsha: Improper parenting (Prof. L. Levine)

On Wed, Nov 8, 2023 at 4:49?PM Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 11:19:30AM -0400, Zvi Lampel via Avodah wrote:
> > On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 3:12AM Marty Bluke <marty.bl...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>


> >> The Kesef Mishna there gives a much simpler answer. He says that even
> >> though technically they could argue they felt that they were on a lower
> >> level and therefore agreed not to argue on the Tannaim.
>
> ZL: > How then did the Amora Rebbi Yochanan argue with the Tanna Rebbi
> Oshiya?
>
> RMBerger: According to the KM, the question isn't "how", because it was
> "merely" a
> convention not to be choleiq. They always had the authority for such
> machloqesin to be possible.
> Rebbi
> The question is more like "why?" Why did R Yochanan violate the convention?
>
> Part of it could be that the convention was still new, and not necessarily
> taken as seriously as it would be once it was the norm for decades
> or generations.


ZL: ...and then the kushyos the Gemara asks on these early Amoraim would be
based on a restriction first taken seriously after their time, And that
would explain why the early Amoraim felt free to create "hybrid"
pesakim (paskening like one Tanna in one case but like an arguing Tanna in
another case). Maybe.

But as I cited in my original theory, it was Rebbi Yochanan himself who
introduced the convention. (Thus my rhetorical, "How (or why) then did the
Amora Rebbi Yochanan violate the convention?") That's why I like my
answer better. Remember, the Kessef Mishna's question was on the Rambam,
who allows lesser Batei Din to overturn pesakim of earlier ones exclusively
concerning interpretations and drashos of pesukim. The Rambam agrees that
with any other kind of official pesak of Beis Din Gadol, the ability to
overturn it, whether by a Tanna or an Amora-- is extremely limited. That
convention always existed. My theory calls attention to the fact that
Rebbi Yochanan's chiddush was that even regarding d'oraissa matters,
despite the Rambam;s principle, it was no longer acceptable to overturn any
Tannaitic position in the Mishna, because it may be  a halacha mekubal
miSinai. My explanation: the same vicissitudes that created the fear of
forgetfulness, requiring the writing of the oral law, created actual losing
track of which halachos associated with pesukim were actually generated by
darshonning the pesukim (which would allow later and lesser Batei Din to
overturn them) and which were really part of the oral law, the drashos only
supporting them--which would make them uncontestable.

This also explains passages where we see even later Amoraim (with their
Batei Din Gedolim) disagreeing with Tannaitic pesak where they knew drash
the pesak was based upon was a generating drash, thus obviating Rebbi
Yochanan's fear and complying with the Rambam's principle. It also explains
why the early Amoraim felt free to create hybrid halachos not infringing
upon matters agreed to by both disputing Tannaim.

All this, although there was of course reluctance to dispute earlier
authorities even within all eras in all matters, even if not officially
poskened. But Rebbi Yochanan made it prohibited to do so even regarding
halachos in the Mishna that are not known to be dinei derabanan such as
gezeyros and takanos.

Zvi Lampel
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>> ...The French Rabbanim z"l...
>>
>> RMBerger:
>
> Interruption: This is a school of Baalei Tosafos, no?
>>
>
>  ZL: Tosafos Shantz, too, on Eiduyos 1:5 (early 13th century) cites the
> idea in the name of the French Rabbanim, and Tosafos Rabbeynu Peretz of
> Corbiel (late 13th century) cites it in the name of his rebbi, Rav Yechiel
> of Paris, but expresses dissatisfaction with it.
>
>  Also, the Rashba on Berachos 5b mentions the Rabbanei Tzarfas as being
contemporaneous with Rashbam.

Zvi Lampel



?
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.
R' Yitzchok Levine quoted the Israel National News:

<<< Rav Samson Raphael Hirsch suggests (based on earlier sources) that the
fault partially lies with Yitzchak and Rivkah in that they ignored ?the
great law of education chanoch la?naar al pi darko, ?bring up each child in
accordance with its own way? ? that each child must be treated differently
with an eye to the slumbering tendencies of his nature.? Rav Hirsch argues
that Esav and Yaakov possessed very different natures and thus should have
been raised differently. >>>

Can someone point to where Rav Hirsch wrote this? Can someone point to
evidence that Yitzchak and Rivka raised Esav and Yaakov the same way?

To my mind, the fact that Yaakov was accustomed to the meat that Esav would
bring home and prepare, and that he requested more of it, demonstrates that
he *was* aware of each son's talents, and that he encouraged (or at least,
didn't mind) those disparate talents.

Akiva Miller
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Prof. YL writes that ? Rav Samson Raphael Hirsch suggests (based on earlier
sources) that the fault [the Esav turns out so badly] partially lies with
Yitzchak and Rivkah in that they ignored ?the great law of education
chanoch la?naar al pi darko, ?bring up each child in accordance with its
own way? ? that each child must be treated differently with an eye to the
slumbering tendencies of his nature.??

Where does the Torah text tell us that Yitzchak and Rivkah did not treat them differently. 

Joseph

Sent from my iPhone

R. Joseph Kaplan wrote:

Prof. YL writes that ? Rav Samson Raphael Hirsch suggests (based on earlier
sources) that the fault [the Esav turns out so badly] partially lies with
Yitzchak and Rivkah in that they ignored ?the great law of education
chanoch la?naar al pi darko, ?bring up each child in accordance with its
own way? ? that each child must be treated differently with an eye to the
slumbering tendencies of his nature.??

Where does the Torah text tell us that Yitzchak and Rivkah did not treat them differently.

If you have RSRH's commentary on the Chumash, then please look at what he wrote there related to this issue.

Also, there is a detailed discussion in Rav Hirsch's essay

Lessons From Jacob and Esau<https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/lessons_jacob_esau_col_vii.pdf>

Please also see

 Chanoch L'na'ar Al Pi Darko<https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/chanoch_l_naar_al_pi_darco.pdf>

Professor Yitzchok Levine


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