Avodah Mailing List

Volume 41: Number 74

Thu, 19 Oct 2023

• 1. Amora Differing with Tanna (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 2. Re: Amora Differing with Tanna (Marty Bluke)
• 3. Re: Amora Differing with Tanna (Zvi Lampel)
• 4. Amora Differing with Tanna (Marty Bluke)
• 5. Re: Amora Differing with Tanna (Zvi Lampel)
• 6. ?yedia brura? (Joel Rich)

 The Kessef Mishnah asks on the Rambam (Mamrim 2:1)  -  who rules that
a Bes Din Gadol, regardless of its status BeChochmah and
BeMinyan can overturn halachos of an earlier Beis Din Gadol but not
Gezeiros, Takanos and Minhagim (can someone explain how they differ from
one another?) which it can only overrule if it is greater BeChochmah and
BeMinyan (Seyagim BTW, whatever they are, can never be overruled)

 -  In that case why do we assert, asks the KM, that an Amora cannot argue
with a Tanna?

The Kessef Mishnah answers it is a convention. Indeed Amoraim may argue
with Tanaim, but they elected not to.
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Rav Elchanan Wasserman in Kovetz Shiurim (Bava Basra 633) quotes the
following in the name of Rav Chaim Soloveitchik

This question I asked my teacher R*? Chaim Brisker and* he answered, ?That
in truth an Amora has the power to disagree with a Tanna. This that we
regularly find the Talmud rejecting the views of an Amora by simply showing
that a Tanna rejects it ? that is because as a general rule an Amora did
not disagree with a Tanna. So if the Amora only knew the view of the Tanna
we assume he would not disagree with it. However where we see that an Amora
explicitly disagrees with a Tanna it is possible that the final halacha is
in agreement with the Amora.?

This would seem to be based on the Kesef Mishna.

On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 6:19?PM Zvi Lampel <zvilam...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 3:12?AM Marty Bluke <marty.bl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The Kesef Mishna there gives a much simpler answer. He says that even
>> though technically they could argue they felt that they were on a lower
>> level and therefore agreed not to argue on the Tannaim.
>
>
> How then did the Amora Rebbi Yochanan argue with the Tanna Rebbi Oshiya?
> That was the question.
>
> BTW, whereas the Kessef Mishna proposes the Amoraim agreed not to argue on
> the Tannaim, he does not say it's because they felt they were on a lower
> level. That's the Chazon Ish's proposal.
>
> Zvi Lampel
>
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On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 3:12?AM Marty Bluke <marty.bl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The Kesef Mishna there gives a much simpler answer. He says that even
> though technically they could argue they felt that they were on a lower
> level and therefore agreed not to argue on the Tannaim.


How then did the Amora Rebbi Yochanan argue with the Tanna Rebbi Oshiya?
That was the question.

BTW, whereas the Kessef Mishna proposes the Amoraim agreed not to argue on
the Tannaim, he does not say it's because they felt they were on a lower
level. That's the Chazon Ish's proposal.

Zvi Lampel
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The Kesef Mishna there gives a much simpler answer. He says that even
though technically they could argue they felt that they were on a lower
level and therefore agreed not to argue on the Tannaim.
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>
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 3:12?AM Marty Bluke <marty.bl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The Kesef Mishna there gives a much simpler answer. He says that even
>> though technically they could argue they felt that they were on a lower
>> level and therefore agreed not to argue on the Tannaim.
>
>
> ZL:
>
How then did the Amora Rebbi Yochanan argue with the Tanna Rebbi Oshiya?
> That was the question.
>
> BTW, whereas the Kessef Mishna proposes the Amoraim agreed not to argue on
> the Tannaim, he does not say it's because they felt they were on a lower
> level. That's the Chazon Ish's proposal.
>
> Zvi Lampel
>

On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 11:26?AM Marty Bluke <marty.bl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Rav Elchanan Wasserman in Kovetz Shiurim (Bava Basra 633) quotes the
> following in the name of Rav Chaim Soloveitchik
>
> This question I asked my teacher R*? Chaim Brisker and* he answered,
> ?That in truth an Amora has the power to disagree with a Tanna. This that
> we regularly find the Talmud rejecting the views of an Amora by simply
> showing that a Tanna rejects it ? that is because as a general rule an
> Amora did not disagree with a Tanna. So if the Amora only knew the view of
> the Tanna we assume he would not disagree with it. However where we see
> that an Amora explicitly disagrees with a Tanna it is possible that the
> final halacha is in agreement with the Amora.?
>
> This would seem to be based on the Kesef Mishna.
>

 ZL:
Kessef Mishna: "they agreed not to argue on the Tannaim."
R' Elchanan b'sheim R' Chaim Brisker: "...we see that an Amora explicitly
disagrees with a Tanna..."

Yerushalmi on Peah 2:4 : R. Yochanan tells his talmidim not to dismiss any
hard-to-explain mishna on the grounds that it may be one of the many
halachos received from Sinai that are embedded in the Mishna. So how does
R. Yochanan argue with R. Oshiya?
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In Moscow in 1936 Rav Moshe was asked (Y?D 1:54) concerning a situation
where non-religious children were the only source of food for their
religious parents. Could such children be relied upon concerning the kosher
status of the food provided. He was mchadeish that while such individuals
don?t have neemanut(halachic credibility),if the parents ?knew? that the
children would not lie to them on this issue, they could be relied upon in
a case of great need. A ?yedia brura?(clear knowledge?), based on actual
experience would be required as well as an underlying theory as to why the
child would not do such a thing.

It occurred to me that, even if a rabbi gave such a ruling, the ruling
would be conditional on the parent?s judgment as to whether he had ?yedia
brura?, rather than the rabbi?s evaluation of the knowledge. Quite a burden
to put on somebody who will certainly be impacted by the result, any
thoughts appreciated.

Hashem Oz Lamo Yiten Hashem Yvarech Et Amo Bashalom

Joel Rich
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