Avodah Mailing List

Volume 41: Number 36

Sat, 13 May 2023

• 1. Mesora? (Joel Rich)
• 2. Switching Sefirahs? Understanding Your Minhag and its Ramification (Prof. L. Levine)
• 3. Re: Switching Sefirahs? Understanding Your Minhag and its Ramification (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Ashkenazic Pronounciation (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Ashkenazic Pronounciation (Meir Shinnar)

> One of the basic limitations of interpreting ancient text, lies, and
> comprehending the cultural references. When it comes to the meaning of
> physical gestures, biblical interpreters engage in a good deal of
> speculation, most of which means unsubstantiated.

This is a footnote in Dr. Yael Ziegler's book on Lamentations (Eichah),
but to me it's a comment that reflects our everyday learning of both
commentaries on Tanach and Halacha throughout the generations. When is it a
tradition and when is it intelligent people looking at texts, and making
their best guess based on their total life study and experience?

KT
Joel Rich

From

https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5879


Your neighbor is planning on making a wedding on Rosh Chodesh Sivan, while
a colleague did so the day after Lag B?Omer (not that he could have done it
the day before even if he would have wanted; the halls were all booked on
Lag B?Omer itself months in advance). Yet, a friend insists that one must
wait until after Shavuos, while another bemoans that he should have made
the wedding right after Pesach. Who is correct? Welcome to the annual
Sefirah scenario.


The Gemara Yevamos (62b) famously and tragically details the deaths of
24,000 students of Rabbi Akiva during the time period between Pesach and
Shavuos, all for not according each other proper honor. Although there are
many different rationales given by the commentaries to explain this
catastrophe, the Tashbetz (Shu?t vol. 1: 178) elucidates that the reason
they were punished so severely for a seemingly minor infraction is that
their not treating each other properly ended up engendering a tremendous
ChilulHashem. In fact, according to several authorities, the reason why
LagB?Omer is a day of celebration is that it is the day when Rabbi Akiva
started teaching his five new students (including Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai),
allowing the Torah?smesorah to perpetuate;[1]<https://ohr.edu/5879#_edn1> a feat
that was previously in jeopardy after the deaths of his talmidim.


This calamity is actually the basis of the annual Sefirah restrictions,
which include not getting married or taking a haircut.[2]<https://ohr.edu/5879#_edn2> Yet,
that does not properly explain the different and varied minhagim that Klal
Yisrael keeps regarding the actual time frames of these restrictions.


And there are different minhagim. In fact, Rav Moshe Feinstein
zt?l[3]<https://ohr.edu/5879#_edn3> lists
six different customs, and that is not including the Arizal?s minhag. Yet,
practically, the Pri Megadim and Mishnah Berurah break it down to three
main disparate customs.[4]<https://ohr.edu/5879#_edn4> The
others are variations on those main opinions.

<Snip>
Minhag # 3 - Second Sefirah

The Rema then mentions another popular minhag, to only start the Sefirah
restrictions from RoshChodeshIyar, and not from right after Pesach. This
Sefirah lasts until shortly before Shavuos,[9]<https://ohr.edu/5879#_edn9>
excluding LagB?Omer itself. This has come to be known colloquially as
?SecondSefirah?.


<Snip>


Additionally, Rav Moshe holds that the ?Second Sefirah? is the true
Ashkenazic minhag and that ?First Sefirah? is essentially a Sefardic minhaa
He therefore concludes that an Ashkenazi may not switch from ?Second
Sefirah? to the ?First Sefirah?, as ?lechatchilla we should not be lenient
against the shittah of the Gr?a, except under extremely extenuating
circumstances?, but rather only between two different versions of
?Ashkenazic Sefirah?, in different years, both of which end in different
days in Sivan (see Postscript).


See the above URL for much more.


Professor Yitzchok Levine

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On Thu, May 11, 2023 at 07:14:59PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> From
> https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5879

>> And there are different minhagim. In fact, Rav Moshe Feinstein
>> zt"l lists six different customs, and that is not including the
>> Arizal's minhag. Yet, practically, the Pri Megadim and Mishnah Berurah
>> break it down to three main disparate customs.[4]

R Akiva Miller made a list of shitos on Mail-Jewish back in 1995
<http://www.ottmall.com/mj_ht_arch/v19/mj_v19i39.html#CMH>

I went through his sources and made my own version due to minor
differences in understanding (and his listing the third shitah in the
Biur Halakhah, even though the BH gives it as a hypotehetic al says
lemaaseh no one does it).

That's at <https://aspaqlaria.aishdas.org/2008/05/30/mourning-during-omer-2>.
I ended up listing some 11 shitos that various acharonim said are followed
in practice.

But I concluded in terms of the more popular minhagim:
> The two most common minhagim are probably
> - #3 for Ashkenazim or #4 for Sepharadim (which differ over Lag ba/laOmer)
>  and
>- either #10 or #11 (which only differ by whether one mourns the day of
>  Erev Shavuos).

Back to Ohr Samyach's Insights into Halacha by R Yehudah Spitz
>> Additionally, Rav Moshe holds that the 'Second Sefirah' is the true
>> Ashkenazic minhag and that 'First Sefirah' is essentially a Sefardic
>> minhaa He therefore concludes that an Ashkenazi may not switch from
>> 'Second Sefirah' to the 'First Sefirah'...

Except that the IM says you indeed can, to fulfil Mesameiach Chasan
veKalah by attending a wedding, or if family would be offended, etc...
So I think that the she'as hadeachaq (or whatever you want to call it)
piece of his pesaq needs to be phrased as something more includsive thatn
"except under extremely extenuating circumstances".

(Notably Yom haAtzma'ut is during the overlap between the two.)

In the prequel to that part 2 blog post, I try to make a case from the
AhS (OC 493:1-2) that these minhagim were born at different times.

Se'if 1 discusses two tragic events -- the death of Rabbi Aqiva's
students and the Crusades. One presumably happened during "First
Sefirah". Thus linking Rabbi Aqiva starting over again with 5 special
talmidim -- of of whom was Rabbi Shim'on -- with Lag baOmer.

The 2nd notes that the minhag original minhag was not to have haircuts
or weddings. And this is what Sepharadim still do during "First
Sefirah". Historically, it was until Lag laOmer (as the SA calls it) ad
ve'ad bikhlal, but with the popularization of the idea of Yom Simchas
Rashb"i and the belief that it's his hilulah, velo ad bikhlal became
more common.

Then "bekan", meaning Ashkenazim (or East Europeans?) we are nohagim
a broader range of mourning practices.

I think the AhS is intentionally implying that this deepening of the
aveilus was because of the Crusades. Thus, after the mihag hage'onim
and specifically among Ashkenazim. And the Crusades hit Metz, Speyer
and Worms during "Second Sefirah". The first Crusade reached the
Rhineland on 8 Iyyar 1096 CE.

So, if an Ashkenazi is following the norm not listening to music during
the Omer, it would seem to me to be more consistent if they were keeping
Second Sefirah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 35th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   5 weeks in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Malchus sheb'Hod: What is soul-like about
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                submission, and how is it glorious?

On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 07:34:26PM -0400, Meir Shinnar via Avodah wrote:
> > Havarah Yisraelit (as opposed to real Sepharadi accents) is not a minhag.
> > How can you simply use it for tefillah, and to be yotzei a deOraisa,
> > no less!

This is an important paragraph, and I fear R Dr Shinnar missed it when
replying.

...
>> An extreme example:
>> To Ashknazi mesorah, the way Israelis pronounce Sheim Adnus would
>> translate to "My Lords". The sheim itself has a qamatz under the nun,
>> and thus should not be pronounced the same as the plural.

> WADR, this is highly problematic.

> RAYK was complaining about the change in minhag -- not that one was not
> yotze. However, he was talking at a time when Havana yisraelit (abazit)
> was just beginning...

> I know of no one who argues, for example, that Sefardim are not yotze when
> they say Shem adnus with a patach. Wrt changing pronounciation -- we know
> rav Natan Adler (rv of hatam Sofer) changed to Havana sefaradi.

His objection was that it was invented, and is not a minhag. Age didn't
get mention in his teshuvah.

This is what makes it different than an Ashkenazi deciding that havarah
Sepharadi is more appropriate. As I said, "Havarah Yisraelit ... is not
a minhag."

My extreme example of a question is raised by changing havaros was ony to
point out that there are questions to be addressed. Not that one ACTUAL
minhag is better than another. Aside from the normal minhag issues -- does
your locale have a minhag hamaqom, do you need to be matir neder, etc...?

But again, a havarah invented by an Ashkenazi who went to the Mughrab
and was enthralled by the sound of their Hebrew because it sounds less
galuti to him isn't a minhag.

(Just as what the Maskilim did to Nusach Ashkenaz with their
hyper-corrections also shouldn't be considered minhag. No matter how
much they became the norm and enshrined in ArtScroll and Koren.)

> Furthermore, the historical assumption about Ashkenazic pronunciation, and
> especially of the patch/kamatz distinction -- Micha's extreme example -- is
> problematic. Indeed, while recent minhag Ashkenazi did distinguish between
> patach and kamatz, ancient minhag Ashkenazi did not
> Beside the piyutim of Ashkenaz, that routinely rhymed patach with kamatz, we
> have clear evidence that gdole Ashkenaz did not distinguish

> Eg, Rashi...

R Dr Seth Mandel (PhD Semitic Languages) disagrees. E.g.
https://jewishaction.com/religion/jewish-culture/language/real-story-hebrew-pronunciation/
(because I can't understand the journals). He traces these differences
to the differences reflected by the different systems of vowel notation.
And thus the people who would become Ashkenazim were pronouncing a qamatz
differently than a patach before they even converged on Ashkenaz.

Unfortunately, aside from being in aveilus for a son, RMS himself isn't
in good health. He hasn't been answering emails. (Nor does he have hours
for nichum aveilim.) So, I can't ask.

Rashi talks about segol as a "patach qatan" and a tzeirei as a "qamatz
qatan". Again, the implication is that the source of his nomeclature
heard them as distinct vowel sounds.

And it shows that few of his vowel names match ours.

> There is a tshuva by rev tzvi pesach frank who was asked if a litvak was
> yotze kriat megilla by a Galizianer, and he answered shelo gara milashon
> shebadu chachamim. Cute answer. However, I would suggest that, especially
> when communities are close together, we should accept different
> pronounciations -- even if we do not choose to use them. We need to widen
> our tent....

Yes. When the alternatives are real shitos.

BTW, in the above-linked articles RSM repeats the claim that part
of the motive behind inventing Havarah Yisraelit isn't just that it's
"galuti", but that "They felt that the Ashkenazic pronunciation was tied
to European Judaism and religious tradition, which they, for the most
part, were rejecting."

Which is certainly not grounds for assuming the resulting practice
is valid for qiyum hamitzvos. But the same it true if we stick to my
observation that it's a pragmatic invention, and not the evolved living
expression of an observant community -- i.e. minhag.`

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 35th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   5 weeks in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Malchus sheb'Hod: What is soul-like about
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                submission, and how is it glorious?

> On May 11, 2023, at 5:17 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 07:34:26PM -0400, Meir Shinnar via Avodah wrote:
>>> Havarah Yisraelit (as opposed to real Sepharadi accents) is not a minhag.
>>> How can you simply use it for tefillah, and to be yotzei a deOraisa,
>>> no less!
> 
> This is an important paragraph, and I fear R Dr Shinnar missed it when
> replying.
> 




> ...
>>> An extreme example:
>>> To Ashknazi mesorah, the way Israelis pronounce Sheim Adnus would
>>> translate to "My Lords". The sheim itself has a qamatz under the nun,
>>> and thus should not be pronounced the same as the plural.
> 
>> WADR, this is highly problematic.
> 
>> RAYK was complaining about the change in minhag -- not that one was not
>> yotze. However, he was talking at a time when Havana yisraelit (abazit)
>> was just beginning...
> 
>> I know of no one who argues, for example, that Sefardim are not yotze when
>> they say Shem adnus with a patach. Wrt changing pronounciation -- we know
>> rav Natan Adler (rv of hatam Sofer) changed to Havana sefaradi.
> 
> His objection was that it was invented, and is not a minhag. Age didn't
> get mention in his teshuvah.

Does the questionable original lineage matter?	If so, you should be
arguing that (to cite an example from RSM?s article you cite) you should be
objecting to yeshivish Hebrew too

It is not as if they invented new, unheard of sounds for either consonants or vowels.  They combined aspects of both sefardic and ashkenazic pronunciations.  

I would add that the article by RSM cites RYE Henkin zt?l.  In
contradistinction to RSM?s position on the validity of all three major
traditions, Rav Henkin holds that the failure of Ashkenaz to distinguish
some consonants means it is objectively wrong, and that one SHOULD change
pronunciation from Ashkenazic to Sephardi pronunciation of consonants.	He
is not sure about vowels - so does not want to change vowels - but has no
problem changing ?minhag? of pronunciation - to a minhag that, while I
understand the theoretical basis, TTBOMK, never existed?.
- and does not require to be mattir neder about abandoning the minhag Avot.  

So what is current Israeli pronunciation - it is standard sefardic
pronunciation - except for lack of a separate het or ayin.  It is the
pronunciation of an Ashkenazi trying to pronounce sefardic?.(and many
Israelis do still make some distinction for het and yin). As you agree that
there is no problem switching to sefardi pronunciation, there is now a
problem because one can?tmake het and yin, which one never could????

Can you find any source predating zionism about any issues of people changing pronounciation?   Notion that there is some minhag Avot about pronunciation?  
Again, much of the response was problems with people changing
pronounciation to fit in with a nonreligious community - not the intrinsic
issue of using it.  At the time of Eliezer Ben Yehudah and RAYK, using
abazit was viewed as a firstvstep off the derech.  Today, abazit is the
minhag of many kehillot and ir v?em beyisrael - regardless of its history. 
 (and for people who grew up speaking abazit in a community that speaks
abazit- it is a far greater change in minhag to change to standard
ashkenazi?than to keep their giros dyankuta)).	Trying to refight the
fights of the early 20th century does nothing for ahavat hashem, yirat
hashem,or avodat hashem



WRT historical Ashkenaz
.

I would defer t oRSM.  However, the issue is not merely the use of
different terminology for the vowels - - but that the piyutim that rhyme
patachand kamatz (and halachic tshuvot - eg, not saying zochrenu lachayim
on yomim noraim)  clearly imply that they viewed patach and kamatz as, even
if not fully identical, they were far closer than current Ashkenazi.
Furthermore, there is evidence that they did distinguish het and ayin in
rashes time.  


?..
Meir Shinnar




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