Avodah Mailing List

Volume 40: Number 60

Mon, 05 Sep 2022

• 1. The [Lubavitcher] Rebbe?s View: Secular Subjects (Prof. L. Levine)
• 2. Of Elul, L'Dovid, and Golems (Prof. L. Levine)
• 3. Re: Of Elul, L'Dovid, and Golems (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Of Elul, L'Dovid, and Golems (Rabbi Yehuda Spitz)
• 5. Talking in Shul (Prof. L. Levine)

Someone sent me an email bringing my attention to the article at

https://anash.org/the-rebbes-view-secular-subjects/?unapproved=17006&;moderation-hash=f3c762a3809830d0b519197e00dba99c#comment-17006

While it has become normal, in some places, for frum schools to include
secular subjects, this was never the case in chadorim of old. Throughout
the nesius, the Rebbe fought strongly for teaching children pure Torah
exclusively.

See the above URL for the entire article.

I simply cannot understand RMMS's position on this issue. From
SECULAR STUDIES AND JUDAISM - Tradition<https://traditiononline.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Secular-Studies-and.pdf>

In the light of the foregoing, it is obvious that secular learning
for the purpose of earning a livelihood is approved. A father's
duty is to teach his son a trade.32 There is no restriction as to
the type of trade or profession as long as no violation of the Torah
is involved.

See the above article for much more.

I posted the comment sbelow on the web site of the article about RMMS's views on secular studies. I sincerely doubt that that they will be posted.

I fail to understand how RMMS could hold the positions outlined in this
article. First of all, secular education is mandated by NYS law. How could
he take a position that violates Dina d?Malchusa Dina?

 Secondly, secular knowledge is crucial to Torah knowledge. The following
 is from The Debate Over Secular Studies Among the Disciples of the Vilna
 Gaon by B. Raphael Shuchat The Torah U-Madda Journal , 1998-1999, Vol. 8
 (1998-1999), pp. 283-294B. Raphael Shuchat Source: The Torah U-Madda
 Journal , 1998-1999, Vol. 8 (1998-1999), pp. 283-294 The Vilna Gaon (Gra)
 saw value in the study of secular knowledge and made a point of educating
 himself in these fields. R. Israel of Shklov, the youngest of his
 disciples, writes: This is what he [the Gra] said, ?All knowledge is
 necessary for our holy Torah and is contained therein.? He knew them all
 thoroughly and mentioned them; the wisdom of algebra, trigonometry,
 geometry, and music which he greatly praised. He used to say then that
 most of the inner meanings of Torah and the secrets of the Levites? songs
 and the secrets of Tikunei Zohar cannot be understood with- out this
 [knowledge of music]. . . . Only concerning medicine [did he limit his 
 study thereof]. He knew human anatomy and all things relevant to it, but
 concerning the composition and prescription of medicines, which he wanted
 to learn from contemporary physicians, his saintly father commanded him
 not to study it so as not to diminish his Torah study in case he might
 have to save lives . . . and of the wisdom of philosophy he said that he
 had studied it thoroughly.? and Despite studying philosophy ?thoroughly?,
 the Gra had a negative attitude toward it; this, however, was not the case
 with the sciences in which he showed great interest. It was this love for
 sciences which motivated him to write an essay on geometry trigonometry
 called Ayil Meshulash, an unusual act considering he wrote nothing else in
 book form.5 A further proof of the positive attitude toward the sciences
 can be found in the introduction to R. Baruch Shick of Shklov?s
 translation of Euclid?s geometry. tells the following story: When I was in
 the holy and grand community of Vilna, by Rabbi, tha
 t great light, the great Gaon, my master and teacher, illuminator of the
 exile, the well-known saint, our honorable teacher Elijah, may God guard
 and protect him, in 5538 [=1778], I heard from his holy mouth that to the
 extent that one lacks in knowledge of other wisdom, he will lack one
 hundred fold in Torah know- ledge, for Torah and [general] knowledge are
 linked to one another . . . and he commanded me to copy into our holy
 language whatever is possible from general knowledge.

R. Yhonason Eybeschutz in Yaaros Devash 2:7 (as translated by L. Levi in
Torah and Science pages 24-25) writes: For all the sciences are
?condiments? and are necessary for our Torah, such as the science of
mathematics, which is the science of measurements and includes the science
of numbers, geometry, and algebra and is very essential for the
measurements required in connection with the Eglah Arufah and the cities of
the Levites and the cities of refuge as well as the Sabbath boundaries of
our cities. The science of weights [i.e., mechanics] is necessary for the
judiciary, to scrutinize in detail whether scales are used honestly or
fraudulently. The science of vision [optics] is necessary for the Sanhedrin
to clarify the deceits perpetrated by idolatrous priests; furthermore, the
need for this science is great in connection with examining witnesses, who
claim they stood at a distance and saw the scene, to determine whether the
arc of vision extends so far straight or bent. The scienc
 e of astronomy is a science of the Jews, the secret of leap years to know
 the paths of the constellations and to sanctify the new moon. The science
 of nature which includes the science of medicine in general is very
 important for distinguishing the blood of the Niddah whether it is pure or
 impure ? and how much more is it necessary when one strikes his fellow man
 in order to ascertain whether the blow was mortal, and if he died whether
 he died because of it, and for what disease one may desecrate the Sabbath.
 Regarding botany, how great is the power of the Sages in connection with
 kilayim [mixed crops]! Here too we may mention zoology, to know which
 animals may be hybridized; and chemistry, which is important in connection
 with the metals used in the tabernacle, etc. (It is worth noting that
 similar lists may be found in R. Abraham Ibn Ezra?s introduction to
 Chibbur Hameshicha Vehatishbores and R. Bachya?s commentary on Avos, end
 of Chapter 3.) Dare one suggest that RMMS was unaware
  of all of the above, because if he were, then how could he hold the position on secular studies outlined in this article?

Professor Yitzchok Levine


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20220831/2eac24ae/attachment-0001.htm>

From

https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/4886
[https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/494286688/Ohr-Somayach-Logo-150sq_bigger.jpg]<;https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/4886>
Of Elul, L'David, and Golems ? Insights into Halacha ? Ohr Somayach<https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/4886>
There is near universal Ashkenazic custom during the month of Elul to
recite the Chapter of Tehillim (27) ?L?Dovid Hashem Ori? during davening,
both every morning and evening, and all the way up to Shmini Atzeres, as
preparation for the Yomim Noraim.This custom is based on the Midrash
Shochar Tov that elucidates that various phrases of this chapter contain
allusions to the holidays of ...
ohr.edu
Before going any further, let me point out that the saying of L'Dovid is
far from universal. Minhag Frankfurt does not say it, and IIRC Sanzer
Chassdim and its derivatives do not say it.

From the article
A Golem as a Tzenter?

Here is where it gets interesting. Rav Eliyahu Baal Shem of Chelm was best
known for being of such stature that he created a Golem[10]<https://ohr.edu/4886#_edn10>. In
fact, both of his aforementioned illustrious descendants have written
responsa on the topic of the Golem that their grandfather created. The
Chid?a[11]<https://ohr.edu/4886#_edn11>, in
his encyclopedia of Gedolim throughout Jewish history, ?Shem Gedolim? also
attested to its existence.


But before our readers decry the supernatural turn this article has taken,
they should realize that Golems actually do have a place in the halachic
realm as well. The issue that these Gedolim were debating was whether a
Golem can count for a minyan! Although the Chacham Tzvi (Shu?t Chacham Tzvi
93) at first remained undecided, his son, Rav Yaakov Emden (Shu?t Sheilas
Ya?avetz vol. 2, 82) ruled unequivocally that a Golem cannot count for a
minyan! Apparently not just a theoretical topic, it is even cited and
debated by such contemporary authorities as the Mishna Berura (55,
4)[12]<https://ohr.edu/4886#_edn12> and
the Chazon Ish (Yoreh Deah 116, 1)!


The Mishna Berura does not actually rule, but rather addresses the issue
and concludes that it is a safek; which is actually the main thrust of the
Chacham Tzvi?steshuvah ? that he personally was undecided as to the proper
halacha. Although the majority consensus is that a Golem would not count
for a minyan, there were several other authorities who defended the Chacham
Tzvi?s logic allowing a Golem to count for a minyan.

Please see the above URL for more.

Professor Yitzchok Levine


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20220901/8e3c963b/attachment-0001.htm>

On Thu, Sep 01, 2022 at 10:18:03PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/4886
> Of Elul, L'David, and Golems ? Insights into Halacha ? Ohr Somayach
...
> Before going any further, let me point out that the saying of L'Dovid
> is far from universal. Minhag Frankfurt does not say it, and IIRC Sanzer
> Chassdim and its derivatives do not say it.

The reason why is in the article:
    Although many erroneously concluded that the original source of
    reciting "L'Dovid" throughout the entire month of Elul was the
    controversial 'Chemdas Yamim', first printed in 1731, history
    has since proven that an earlier source has been found. Many now
    attribute this minhag to the noted Kabbalist and famed author of
    "Amtachas Binyomin", Rav Binyomin Beinish Cohen, in his sefer
    "Shem Tov Kattan[7]", first printed in 1706. There he writes that
    one should be scrupulous with reciting "L'Dovid" daily from Rosh
    Chodesh Elul until after Simchas Torah, averring that this has the
    potential to avert and even nullify Heavenly decrees.

    Yet, there is possibly an earlier source. In the sefer "Nezer Hakodesh
    -- Minhagei Beis Ropschitz"[8] a story is told about the Baal Shem
    Tov, where he mentioned a Tzaddik, known as Rav Eliyahu Baal Shem,
    who had saved the Jews of a certain town from eviction by successfully
    promising the childless non-Jewish mayor a son within a year. The
    Baal Shem Tov mentioned that this Tzaddik, who lived in the late
    1600s, was the one who established the custom of reciting "L'Dovid"
    during Elul. However, it is unclear whom exactly he was referring to.

    [7] See, for example Katzeh HaMatteh (Glosses on the Matteh Efraim
    581, 13) and Likutei Eliezer (pg. 4).

    [8] Cited in Likutei Eliezer (pg. 7).

Chemdas Yamim is Sabbatean, likely from Nathan of Gaza himself
(the "Eliyahu" figure who claimed to be a prophet declaring SZ's
mashiach-hood). Believing that is the source of the minhag is a good
reason to reject the minhag.

This is why the custom was rejected by numerous chassidishe rabbeim:
the Chozeh of Lublin, R Chaim of Sanz, R Zvi Hirsch of Zidichov ("Sar
Beis haZohar"), and the Ropshitzer.

Yekkes would naturally reject the minhag either way. Real Qabbalah or
Sabbatean, it is a Qabbalah based minhag. Many Yekkishe qehilos don't
say Berikh Shemeih.

Surprisingly, the Chasam Sofer endorsed the minhag, despite "Chadash
assur min haTorah".

The Chayei Adam records the practice. But the Gra rejected it for an
entirely unique reason - because he doesn't believe in saying 2 tehillim
in the shir-shel-yom slot.

That said, R Yehudah Spitz may be confusing two things.

The connection between Tehillim 27 and teshuvah season is certainly
older. Vayiqra Rabba 21:4 <https://www.sefaria.org/Vayikra_Rabbah.21.4>
says "ori" refers to RH, yish'i is about H' saving us on YK, etc...

And yes, various minhagim arose shortly before Chemdas Yamim to say
LeDavid daily. Including one to say it when putting back the seifer
Torah after leining (instead of Mizmor 24, "LeDavid Mizmor"), one to
say it as part of Tachanun on Mon and Thu, etc...

Our practice, twice daily -- after shir shel yom in Shacharis and once
in the evening after Aleinu -- is specifically from Chemdas Yamim.

So I think the article conflates the general idea of making a minhag,
based on Medrash Rabba, of saying leDavid with our specific minhag. If
you believe Chemdas Yamim is treif, perhaps one should make a point of
just saying leDavid somewhere else in davening.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Problems are not stop signs,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   they are guidelines.
Author: Widen Your Tent              - Robert H. Schuller
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

Dear Prof. Levine and Rabbi Berger,
Shavua Tov,
Thank you for your email and your he'aros.
Yet, it seems that perhaps you may have skimmed over some of the contents
of the article; as far as I am aware, almost everything you mentioned (and
more) is quite explicitly stated in the article.

For example, regarding L'Dovid having an earlier Midrashic connection to
Elul and the Yamim Noraim is discussed in the very first paragraph:
    - This custom is based on the *Midrash Shochar Tov*[2]
    <https://ohr.edu/4886#_edn2> that elucidates that various phrases
    of this chapter contain allusions to the holidays of the repentance
    period - *Rosh* *Hashana*, *Yom* *Kippur*, and *Sukkos*, as well as
    to the month of Elul itself[3]. [2] Midrash Shochar Tov ( Tehillim
    Ch. 27), which famously elucidates that " Ori" refers to Rosh Hashana,
    "Yishi" to Yom Kippur, and " Yitzpineini B'Sukkoh" on Sukkos.

The Postscript discusses the various Rabbanim and Poskim over the years who
*b'davka* did not / do not recite L'Dovid - between the Sanzers due to the
purported Sabbatean influence, the Vilna Gaon due to Tircha D'Tzibbura, and
many Germanic communities due to being a "new minhag;" - not to mention the
various Sefardic variations thereof.

Hence, I am a bit puzzled by your comment - "That said, R Yehudah Spitz may
be confusing two things."

Also, I would like to point out that one of your he'aros is not quite
accurate: The instructions given by the Shem Tov Kattan in reciting L'Dovid
*is* twice a day - "????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ???
????? ??"? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????...",
whereas as far as I am aware, Chemdas HaYamim only mentions reciting it
"B'shaas Selichos"...

So although the spread of the minhag of reciting L'Dovid may have had to do
with the popularity of the Chemdas Yamim, practically, history has since
disproven that that is the true source of the minhag, and certainly not
twice a day.
I hope this helps clarify.
I would suggest reading the first extensive chapter in Rabbi Dr. Elizer
Brodt's 'Likutei Eliezer' - quite an eye-opener.

Thank you again for writing.
A Gutt Voch and Kesiva V'Chasima Tova,
Yehuda Spitz

From https://torah.org/torah-portion/weekly-halacha-5771-mishpatim/

Ideally, there should be no talking in shul from the beginning to the end
of davening. This should be the long-term goal of every congregation.
Below, we will review the halachic background for this.

Talking in Shul: Halachic Issues

1.Shulchan Aruch rules that idle talk is forbidden in shul even when
prayers are not being recited[2]. Idle talk includes conversation about
one?s livelihood or other essential needs[3]. Nowadays there is some room
for leniency concerning such talk, since some Rishonim rule that shuls are
generally built with a ?precondition? allowing them to be used for
essential matters other than davening[4].

2.During a scheduled prayer session one may not separate himself from the congregation and engage in idle talk[5].

3.Talking during prayers causes a chillul Hashem, since it unfortunately
lends support to the widely held perception that non-Jews are more careful
than Jews to maintain proper decorum in their houses of worship[6].

4.When one is wearing his tefillin, he should refrain from idle talk[7].

5.During certain portions of davening, talking is prohibited for additional
reasons as well. Sometimes talking is considered a hefsek, an
?interruption? which may invalidate the portion which is being interrupted,
while at other times talking is prohibited because the congregation must
give its undivided attention to that portion of the service. In the
following paragraphs we will discuss the various sections of davening, the
degree of the prohibition against talking in each section, and the reasons
behind the prohibition. We will follow the order of tefillas Shacharis.

Note: During certain sections of davening, as will be noted, there is no
specific prohibition against talking. However, the aforementioned reasons
for prohibiting talking in general apply to these sections as well.

Between Birchos ha-Shachar and Baruch She?amar ? There is no specific halachah which prohibits talking.

During Kaddish ? Talking is strictly forbidden, as one must pay full attention so that he can answer Amen, etc. properly[8].

During Pesukei d?Zimrah ? Unless there is an emergency, it is forbidden to
talk during this time, as it would constitute an interruption between the
blessing of Baruch she?amar and the blessing of Yishtabach[9].

Between Yishtabach and Barechu ? It is permitted to talk for a pressing mitzvah need only[10].

Between Barechu and Yotzer Ohr or ha-Ma?ariv Aravim ? It is strictly forbidden to talk[11].

During Birchos Kerias Shema and Shema ? It is strictly forbidden to talk,
as it would be considered an interruption in the middle of a blessing,
which may invalidate the blessing[12].


Between Ga?al Yisrael and Shemoneh Esreh ? It is strictly forbidden to
talk, since it would interrupt the all-important connection between Geulah
and Tefillah[13].

During Shemoneh Esreh ? It is strictly forbidden to talk, as it constitutes
an interruption in davening[14]. If one spoke inadvertently during one of
the blessings of Shemoneh Esreh, he must repeat the blessing[15].

After Shemoneh Esreh ? It is forbidden to talk if it will disturb the concentration of others who are still davening[16].

During Chazaras ha-Shatz ? It is strictly forbidden to talk[17], since one
must pay full attention so that he can answer Amen properly. One who talks
during chazaras ha-shatz is called ?a sinner whose sin is too great to be
forgiven[18].? The poskim report that several shuls were destroyed on
account of this sin[19].

During Kedushah ? It is strictly forbidden to talk. Total concentration is mandatory[20].

During Nesias Kapayim ? It is forbidden to talk, as complete attention must be paid to the Kohanim[21].

Between Chazaras ha-Shatz and Tachanun ? It is inappropriate to talk, since
l?chatchilah there should be no interruption between Shemoneh Esreh and
Tachanun[22].


Between Tachanun and Kerias ha-Torah ? There is no specific prohibition against talking.

During Kerias ha-Torah ? It is strictly forbidden to engage in either idle
talk or divrei Torah during Kerias ha-Torah[23]. One who speaks at that
time is called ?a sinner whose sin is too great to be forgiven[24].? Some
poskim prohibit talking as soon as the Torah scroll is unrolled[25].

Between Aliyos ? There are several views: Some poskim prohibit talking
totally[26], others permit discussing divrei Torah only[27], and others are
even more lenient[28].

During the Haftarah and Its Blessings ? It is forbidden to talk, as one must give undivided attention to the Haftarah reading[29].

Between Kerias ha-Torah and the end of davening ? There is no specific prohibition against talking.

During Hallel ? It is forbidden to talk. Doing so constitutes an interruption of Hallel[30].

Kabbalas Shabbos ? There is no specific prohibition against talking.

During Vayechulu and Magen Avos ? It is forbidden to talk[31].

Note: From a halachic point of view, it is important to distinguish between
those portions of the davening in which talking is prohibited because of
hefsek (e.g., Birchos Kerias Shema and Shema, Shemoneh Esreh, Kedushah,
Hallel), where not even a single word is permitted to be uttered regardless
of ?need,? and those portions where the prohibition against talking is
based on the requirement of paying attention to the davening or because of
shul decorum (e.g. Kaddish, chazaras ha-shatz), where an exception can be
made when a special need arises, allowing one to quietly utter a few
words[32]. The following statement, authored by Harav Shimon Schwab[33],
sums up the Torah viewpoint on this subject: ?For Hashem?s sake ? let us be
quiet in the Beis ha-Knesses. Our reverent silence during the Tefillah will
speak very loudly to Him Who holds our fate in His hands. Communicating
with Hashem is our only recourse in this era of trial and tribulations.
There is too much ugly noise in our world t
 oday. Let us find peace and tranquility while we stand before Hashem in prayer!?

See the URL for the footnotes.

Professor Yitzchok Levine
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20220904/ad9b3f66/attachment.htm>

------------------------------



_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


------------------------------


**************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah/avodahareivim-membership-agreement/


You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org


When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."

A list of common acronyms is available at
        http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah/avodah-acronyms
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)