Avodah Mailing List

Volume 40: Number 32

Mon, 09 May 2022

• 1. Re: More on TIDE (Micha Berger)
• 2. When Early Shabbos is Rosh Chodesh (Richard Wolberg)
• 3. When Early Shabbos is Rosh Chodesh (Marty Bluke)
• 4. The Sefiros associated with Sefiras HaOmer - Where is it First (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 5. Re: When Early Shabbos is Rosh Chodesh (Marty Bluke)
• 6. Re: Rabbis uphold woman's divorce, but deem her ex still married (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: When Early Shabbos is Rosh Chodesh (Akiva Miller)

On Thu, May 05, 2022 at 07:36:44PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> The following is from Rav Shimon Schwab's sefer Selected Speeches.
>> The relationship between Torah and derech eretz is very similar to
>> that which exists between the guf and the neshamah, the body and the
>> soul...

This is very similar to how R YY Weinberg describes TiDE in his essay in
Harav Shimshon Rephael Hirsch: Mishnaso veShitaso:
    The Torah, according to Rav Hirsch, is the force that gives
    form. Form, to Aristotle's thought, means a thing's essential nature
    in distinction to the substance from which it is embodied. Derech
    Eretz is merely the matter on which Torah works.

I see either the same essay or a similar one appeared in Dei'os vol 9 (1959)
and is available at
https://www.daat.ac.il/he-il/kitveyet/deot/zarmey_yahadut/veinberg-mishnato.htm

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 20th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   2 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Yesod sheb'Tifferes: What role does harmony
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                 play in maintaining relationships?

This reminds me of a true case on December 31, 1999 of the birth of twins: 
one at 11:59pm at the the other shortly after 12am. It was the very rare
case of twins being born in different centuries. 

The Taz in siman 668:3 discusses a similar case. If you are mekabel Shemini
Atzeres early and start eating the meal during the day you don?t make a
beracha on the succa even though astronomically it?s still the 7th day of
succos. Also see the taz in siman 600:2 where he has an interesting
question if Rosh hashana is Thursday and Friday and you don?t have a shofar
and you make early shabbos and after you make early shabbos you get a
shofar, can you blow? At the end there he explicitly references mila and
states that mila is not affected by Davening maariv.
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Why are these permutations associated with this Mitzvah?
When did it first emerge?
Where is it first documented?
Are we sure of its significance?


Best,

Meir G. Rabi

0423 207 837
+61 423 207 837
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See also the Rama in yoreh death 196, where he paskens that bdieved a woman
can make a hefsek tahara after the tzibbur was mekabel shabbos. The shach
explains that tosefes shabbos has nothing to do with nidda. Tosefes shabbos
doesn?t turn day into night so anything related to night cannot be done,
the Shach points out that you can?t count sefira during tosefes shabbos.

As to yaaleh vyavo, the chiyuv to say yaale vyavo is based on the fact that
you are supposed to mention Rosh Chodesh in the tefilos of the day. Once
you davened maariv, shacharis, mussaf and mincha on Friday you have
fulfilled that obligation. The tefilla of maariv on Friday afternoon is not
a tefila of Rosh Chodesh and therefore has no chiyuv to say yaaleh vyavo.

Lastly, this year in Israel the last day of Pesach fell out on Friday. We
made early shabbos (as recommended by the Mishna Berura) and we davened
maariv of shabbos and did not mention pesach. However, all of the Rabbanim
stressed that the issurim of pesach had to be observed until nightfall
(many people eat kitniyos that shabbos in israel) because that is a din of
night, which fits in with what the shach in yoreh deah wrote.

On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:04 PM Marty Bluke <marty.bl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The Taz in siman 668:3 discusses a similar case. If you are mekabel
> Shemini Atzeres early and start eating the meal during the day you don?t
> make a beracha on the succa even though astronomically it?s still the 7th
> day of succos. Also see the taz in siman 600:2 where he has an interesting
> question if Rosh hashana is Thursday and Friday and you don?t have a shofar
> and you make early shabbos and after you make early shabbos you get a
> shofar, can you blow? At the end there he explicitly references mila and
> states that mila is not affected by Davening maariv.
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On Tue, Apr 05, 2022 at 12:56:46PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> When I read the article, the case seemed to be similar to the conversion I
> mentioned in my first paragraph: We'll believe what the guy says about
> himself, but he is powerless to change someone else's status. According to
> the article, the principle used by the beis din was actually "Shavyeh
> Anafsheh Haticha D'Issura", which might be slightly different in theory,
> but (I think) has the same effect in this case.

Palginan dibura might also have come up. And produces the same weirdly
inconsistent-seeming results as in the subject line.

As you write, though:
> Normally, and in this case too, I am very hesitant to believe that the
> press got all their facts straight...

So, without knowing the details, even if the end-results are the same,
either halachic mechanism could have been the cause.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 22nd day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   3 weeks and 1 day in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Chesed sheb'Netzach: Do I take control of the
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF               situation for the benefit of others?

.
R' Marty Bluke wrote:

> Tosefes shabbos doesn?t turn day into night so anything
> related to night cannot be done

And he gave several examples of such halachos: hefsek tahara, counting
sefira, chometz. Plus my example of counting the days for bris milah. But
Tefilah and Birkas Hamazon are in a different category, where Tosefes
Shabbos DOES change the date. Specifically:

> As to yaaleh vyavo, the chiyuv to say yaale vyavo is based on
> the fact that you are supposed to mention Rosh Chodesh in the
> tefilos of the day. Once you davened maariv, shacharis, mussaf
> and mincha on Friday you have fulfilled that obligation. The
> tefilla of maariv on Friday afternoon is not a tefila of Rosh
> Chodesh and therefore has no chiyuv to say yaaleh vyavo.

I accept this, but not because it makes sense to me. In my view, if
"Tosefes shabbos doesn?t turn day into night" and therefore Rosh Chodesh
afternoon is still Rosh Chodesh despite my early acceptance of Shabbos,
then I don't see any logical reason for skipping Yaaleh V'Yavo in that
Shabbos Maariv. But I've never ever ever been in a shul where the gabbai
reminded us to include it, so I accept what RMBluke wrote here, as an
example of Puk Chazi ("Go look what people actually do; that must be the
halacha.")

He also gave sukkah and shofar as examples. These are particularly good
examples because the mitzvah itself is in the regular category, but the
bracha on that mitzva is in the tefilah category. Thus, if you
accepted Shabbos early on Hoshana Raba afternoon, you still have to eat in
the sukkah, but you have to omit the Leshev. And if a shofar was finally
found on the second day of Rosh Hashana after Kabalas Shabbos, it must be
blown but without the bracha.

But I would like a better understanding of these two categories. I would
like to understand WHY Tefilah and Birkas Hamazon are in a separate
category, WHY they are subject to Kabalas Shabbos while the other halachos
aren't. As I wrote above, in my way of viewing things, it would be entirely
reasonable for Tefila and Birkas Hamazon to be unaffected by Kabbalas
Shabbas the same way that all those other halachos are unaffected. In such
a universe, a person could accept Shabbos via lighting neros with a bracha,
and say kiddush and eat the seuda - and then bench without Retzeh and say a
regular weekday Mincha. (That is to say, a regular Friday Mincha in other
situations, but a regular Friday Mincha with Yaaleh V'Yavo in this
particular situation.) Kabalas Shabbos would affect only those halachos
which are intrinsic to Shabbos, such as saying Kiddush and the prohibition
of Melacha. But not other things, like davening or bentching.

I am quite aware that this is NOT the halacha, but I'm trying to understand
why. Consider this situation: A person accepted Shabbos early and then
realized that he forgot Mincha. He is no longer able to say a regular
Friday mincha. It is also not suggested that he might say a Shabbos mincha
(i.e. Atah Echad in his Shmoneh Esray) even though it *is* mincha-time, and
Tefilah *does* follow the Kababas Shabbos rather than following the
calendar. Rather, he must make it up at maariv by saying the amidah then
twice. (Source: Shmirat Shabbat K'hilchata 46:5 citing Mishne Brurah
263:43) But why? Why is a duplicate maariv preferred over saying mincha in
its proper time?

Another halacha where we ignore Kabalas Shabbos is Fast Days. When Asarah
B'Teves is on Erev Shabbos, beginning Shabbos early does NOT allow one to
break the fast early. (Some rabanim might allow early eating based on an
early calculation of Tzeis, but that is totally separate from the Kabalas
Shabbos question.) One must wait for the day to be over, however that might
be defined. But commencing Shabbos does *not* suffice to put an end to
Asara B'Teves.

But there is one other situation where Tosefes Shabbos DOES turn day into
night - and as a leniency! - and that is eating meat and wine during the
Nine Days. Regardless of when Rosh Chodesh Av was, one can accept Shabbos
Chazon early and eat meat/wine. One might answer that this exception is
because avoiding meat/wine is "only" a minhag when Shavua Shechal Bo hasn't
started yet. But this halacha applies even when Tisha B'Av is on Shabbos
itself (and delayed to Sunday), and (according to many poskim) the whole
week (Sunday 3 Av to Friday 8 Av inclusive) counts as Shavus Shechal Bo;
even then one can still accept Shabbos early in order to eat meat/wine on
the 8th of Av.

So we have three exceptions, where Kabalas Shabbos affect the nature of the
day even for non-Shabbos halachos: tefila, benching, and meat/wine during
the nine days. Can anyone think of other exceptions? And what do they have
in common?

Akiva Miller
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