Avodah Mailing List

Volume 39: Number 58

Fri, 02 Jul 2021

• 1. changes in circumstances (Rich, Joel)
• 2. Can elective surgery be performed during the Three Weeks? (Prof. L. Levine)
• 3. Re: changes in circumstances (Micha Berger)
• 4. Is it appropriate to go on trips for pleasure during The Three Weeks or The Nine Days? What about travel for other reasons? (Prof. L. Levine)
• 5. Torah and Secular Knowledge before Ghettoization (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Torah and Secular Knowledge before Ghettoization (Zev Sero)

[X]
???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?
???? ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?????"? ????? ???? ????
???? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?????
?? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?' ?????? ?????
[?????? ????? ????????? ?? ???? ??????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ??
????]:
Rough translation (after story of how some ignored chalav akum rules and
then found out they had drunk basar vchalav cooked concoction ?they all
fell on their faces due to their great sin that they ate treif and basar
vchalav and they cried out how great are the words of the sages, and
truthfully thus I received that all the Sages enactments in addition to the
revealed reasons there are many other hidden reasons that they did not
reveal and he who listens will carry a blessing[and specifically I heard
that in America there are many of the nations who drink pigs milk because
there are many of them there]
Me-so how can we ever take into account changes in circumstances (e.g. Rabbeinu Tam on klei shir or how we skirt medicine on shabbat rules)
Research opportunity-pig milk consumption in the late 19th century?
Wiki says-Pig milk is not considered suitable for human consumption or
commercial production for a number of reasons. Pigs are considered
difficult to milk. The sow herself is reluctant to be milked, may be
uncooperative or become spooked by human presence, and lactating pigs may
be quite aggressive.


KT
Joel Rich

THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20210630/aed6cc4f/attachment-0001.html>

From today's OU Halacha Yomis


Q. Can elective surgery be performed during the Three Weeks?

A. One should not engage in activities which are potentially dangerous
during the entire Three Weeks (Shulchan Aruch 551:18 and Dirshu Mishna
Berura ibid. Beurim 126-128). Rav Shmuel Wosner, zt?l and Rav Yaakov
Kaminetsky, zt?l recommended delaying surgery, when possible, until after
the Three Weeks because of potential danger (Dirshu MB ibid. 128 in the
name of Rav Wosner, zt?l in Kovetz MiBeis Levi p. 11 and Rav Yaakov, zt?l
in Emes L?Yaakov p. 225 he?arah 515), while Rav Moshe Feinstein, zt?l
allowed even elective surgery until Rosh Chodesh Av, but not during the
Nine Days when our mazal is particularly weak (Moadei Yeshurun p. 130:19
and p. 136:43).

YL
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20210630/38cd8e01/attachment-0001.html>

On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 12:08:29AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> Me-so how can we ever take into account changes in circumstances
> (e.g. Rabbeinu Tam on klei shir or how we skirt medicine on shabbat rules)

Rabbeinu Tam didn't eliminate keli shir, though. He eliminated extensions
to the original taqanah, like hand-clapping or dancing in a way no one
considers the definition of machol.

The horror story I took as an emotional motivator to keep to a din he saw
people finding new qulos for, and not actually fundamental to his pesaq.

The AhS holds like the CS that chalav yisrael is a taqanah. The Peri
Chadash has no problem, since he holds it's a pesaq. Pesaqim are
inherently limited by circumstances. But assuming the CS, and that CY
is a taqanah...

We have the IM defining re'iyah in a way that would include a certain
level of certainty even without sight. This is something we see in
hilkhos eidus. So that the gezeirah is met by the new circumstances.

The AhS, though, cites the case of someone supervising only part of
the milking run. This clearly isn't birur, since they could do the
adulteration when the Jew isn't watching. And yet, the result is CY
-- IF we have normal birur reasons to assume there was no mixing
in of treif milk.

He understands from that case that CY is a taqanah beyond birur, and
is pro-forma. He focuses on a case RMF would have a hard time explaining
adds re'iyah quality certainty.

..
> Wiki says-Pig milk is not considered suitable for human consumption
> or commercial production for a number of reasons...

Mare's milk, though, is drunk in a number of cultures. As were alcoholic
drinks from fermented mare's milk.

Totally tangential, since I doubt it would sell in 19th or early 20th
cent Lithuania.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 "I hear, then I forget; I see, then I remember;
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   I do, then I understand." - Confucius
Author: Widen Your Tent      "Hearing doesn't compare to seeing." - Mechilta
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    "We will do and we will listen." - Israelites

From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis


Q. Is it appropriate to go on trips for pleasure during The Three Weeks or The Nine Days? What about travel for other reasons?

A. The Sdei Chemed (Bein Hametzarim, siman 1:10) writes that there were
communities that had instituted a ban against visiting gardens and beaches
or taking similar pleasure trips during The Three Weeks. Although these
types of communal bans are no longer widely observed, one should not lose
focus of the message that they represent. The Shevet HaLevi (10:26) was
asked whether it is appropriate for camps to go on trips during The Three
Weeks (until Rosh Chodesh Av). He responded that it is permitted to take
campers on trips during this time, but it is proper to limit these trips in
some way, so that the children are taught that this is a time of communal
mourning.

Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, zt?l (Halichos Shlomo ? Hilchos Bein Hametzarim
14:24) writes that one should not travel by airplane during The Nine Days.
During The Nine Days, one must be even more vigilant to avoid situations of
danger. Although air travel is actually one of the safest modes of travel,
since we recite Birkas Ha?Gomel when traveling by plane, it is considered a
danger from a halachic point of view. It should therefore be avoided.
However, Rav Shlomo Zalman writes that one may travel to Israel during The
Nine Days and even on Tisha B?Av itself. For the sake of visiting Eretz
Yisrael, one is permitted to put themselves in danger. Also, he would
permit yeshiva students to travel home by plane during The Nine Days,
rather than leave yeshiva early. The merit of remaining in yeshiva and
studying Torah will protect them.

YL
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20210702/83a27ea3/attachment-0001.html>

On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 11:58:13PM -0400, Zev Sero via Areivim wrote:
> On 29/6/21 9:08 am, Prof. Levine via Areivim wrote:
>> Torah knowledge combined with secular knowledge was the standard until
>> Jews were locked in ghettos and hence had little or no contact with the
>> outside world.

> That is not true at all.

The Gra disagrees. See R Barukh miShklov (Schick)'s intro to Ayal
Meshulash. He presumes that success in learning requires a strong
background in other knowledge, and thus people were expect to learn
both. The whole reason for his writing a Hebrew introduction to Euclidian
Geometry.

RYL has posted translations of quotes to this effect from both the Gra
and RSRH so many times, your blanket "not true at all" is inappropriate.
Your derekh may disagree, but "not true at all"?

To catch people here up, here are RYL's references from earlier in the
conversation on Areivim:

> R. Yhonason Eybeschutz wrote in Yaaros Devash 2:7
> (as translated by L. Levi in Torah and Science, pages 24-25):

>     For all the sciences are condiments and are necessary for our
>     Torah, such as the science of mathematics, which is the science
>     of measurements and includes the science of numbers, geometry,
>     and algebra and is very essential for the measurements required
>     in connection with the Eglah Arufah and the cities of the Levites
>     and the cities of refuge as well as the Sabbath boundaries of our
>     cities. The science of weights [i.e., mechanics] is necessary for the
>     judiciary, to scrutinize in detail whether scales are used honestly
>     or fraudulently. The science of vision [optics] is necessary for the
>     Sanhedrin to clarify the deceits perpetrated by idolatrous priests;
>     furthermore, the need for this science is great in connection with
>     examining witnesses, who claim they stood at a distance and saw
>     the scene, to determine whether the arc of vision extends so far
>     straight or bent. The science of astronomy is a science of the Jews,
>     the secret of leap years to know the paths of the constellations and
>     to sanctify the new moon. The science of nature which includes the
>     science of medicine in general is very important for distinguishing
>     the blood of the Niddah whether it is pure or impure and how much more
>     is it necessary when one strikes his fellow man in order to ascertain
>     whether the blow was mortal, and if he died whether he died because
>     of it, and for what disease one may desecrate the Sabbath. Regarding
>     botany, how great is the power of the Sages in connection with
>     kilayim [mixed crops]! Here too we may mention zoology, to know
>     which animals may be hybridized; and chemistry, which is important
>     in connection with the metals used in the tabernacle, etc.

...
>> R. Yhonason Eybeschutz wrote in Yaaros Devash 2:7 (as translated by
>> L. Levi in Torah and Science, pages 24-25):

>> For all the sciences are "condiments" and are necessary for our Torah

> The word is "parpera'os", "desserts", which as the Rambam pointed out come
> after the meal, not before or during it...

Actually, it is used to refer to appetizer as well as desert. Like in
Y-mi Berakhos 6:5 (vilna 49a). Jastrow suggests that it's a loan word
from Greek: "periphery", which made me think of today's idiom of "side
dish". Given that, I don't think "condiments" is necessarily wrong,
although I wouldn't personally have used that translation.

All "parpera'os" tells you is that it's not the core of the meal.
Nothing about it needing to wait for the end.

The Rambam, for that matter, doesn't speak of secular knowledge as a
whole waiting for after one "filled their belly" of Torah. See Yesodei
haTorah 4:11-13. (Halakhah 11 invokes his commentary on Chagiga 2:1,
by using the phrase "Ein Doreshin", and there is a related discussion
there. As well as at Moreh 1:30.) The Rambam only discusses Maaseh
Bereishis and Maaseh haMerkavah, which he identifies with metaphysics and
theology -- and just spend 4 peraqim outlining.

(The statement in halakhah 13 is a parallel to those who insist that one
not learn Qabbalah until being well grounded in Toras nigleh. E.g. Chayei
Adam 10:12 uses the same "shmila kereiso" in that context.)

In fact, in Peirush haMishnayos, the Rambam specifically talks about how
that attitude belittles G-d, to think one can skip to learning about Him,
to going to the aliyah before having a bayis. Other topics, such as Ayil
Meshulash's presentation of Geometry, aren't in the Rambam's discussion
nor fit his depiction of the problem.

> But it is a misrepresentation to portray that Yaaros Devash as praising or
> recommending other wisdoms.

RYE "just" lists things of Torah a memeber of Sanhedrin can't undertstand
without it. Removing your assumption that parparaos means something after
the meal, or that we include pragmatic knowledge when talking about achar
shemilei kereisav, there is no reason to assume he means it's only for
Sanhedrin. Rather than saying that Torah without secular knowledge has
a glass ceiling.


RYL's other citation from that earlier Areivim post, which more belongs
here on Avodah as well:

>  From https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/science-in-medieval-jewish-cultures/astronomy-among-jews-in-the-middle-ages/BC836CF916165930270B5F8342195E86

A summary of an essay in Science in Medieval Jewish Cultures, by Dr
Bernard Goldstein (Univ of Pittburgh), published in 2012:

>     In the Middle Ages Jews were deeply involved in the practice
>     of astronomy and they depended on the Greco-Arabic tradition
>     largely based on Ptolemy's Almagest composed in the second century
>     c.e. During the first phase, from about 750 to 1100, contributions
>     by Jews, whether in Hebrew or Arabic, were relatively minor compared
>     with those of their Muslim contemporaries. However, in the second
>     phase, beginning in Spain in the twelfth century, some significant
>     works were translated from Arabic into Hebrew and others were
>     summarized. In addition to the dominant Ptolemaic tradition, Jews
>     had access to an astronomical tradition exemplified in Arabic by
>     the tables of al-Khw rizm (d. ca. 840) that ultimately derived from
>     Hindu sources. Translations from Arabic into Hebrew continued in the
>     thirteenth and fourteenth centuries and, by the end of the thirteenth
>     century, enough material was available in Hebrew for Jews who did not
>     know Arabic to compose original treatises that were more advanced
>     than an introductory work. In addition to those writing in Arabic
>     and in Hebrew, there was an important group under the patronage of
>     Alfonso X, King of Castile (reigned 125284), that produced treatises
>     in Castilian. The fourteenth century marks the third phase in which
>     Jews made their most original contributions to astronomy, and this
>     phase continued in the fifteenth century when Jews still excelled in
>     this discipline by the standards of the day. In geographical terms,
>     interest in astronomy can be found in nearly all Jewish communities,
>     but the works produced in Spain and southern France were the most
>     important.

This is a chapter summary. It would be helpful to see the argument built.

But the Golden Age of Spain is definitely a strong example of an era when
the norm was to learn Secular Knowledge. Generalizing from that to, eg,
learning during the millennia between Moshe Rabbeinu and Rav Ashi, though,
is less solid ground.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

--
Micha Berger                 When faced with a decision ask yourself,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   "How would I decide if it were Ne'ilah now,
Author: Widen Your Tent      at the closing moments of Yom Kippur?"
-- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -- Rav Yisrael Salanter

On 2/7/21 10:34 am, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 11:58:13PM -0400, Zev Sero via Areivim wrote:
>> On 29/6/21 9:08 am, Prof. Levine via Areivim wrote:

>>> Torah knowledge combined with secular knowledge was the standard until
>>> Jews were locked in ghettos and hence had little or no contact with the
>>> outside world.

>> That is not true at all.

> The Gra disagrees. See R Barukh miShklov (Schick)'s intro to Ayal
> Meshulash. He presumes that success in learning requires a strong
> background in other knowledge, and thus people were expect to learn
> both. The whole reason for his writing a Hebrew introduction to Euclidian
> Geometry.

That has nothing to do with what the standard of education was for 
children, whether before Jews were "locked in ghettos" or after.

For that matter, I don't believe Jews were ever "locked in ghettos and 
hence had little or no contact with the outside world".   Jews generally 
lived in the same area even when they weren't forced to, for the same 
reasons we generally do so now; but even where they were forced to those 
areas were not prisons.  There were places where the Jews locked 
themselves in at night, for safety, just as many non-Jewish compounds 
did.  But they had all the contact with the outside world they needed. 
They had to, since most Jews made their livings by trade of some sort, 
which required such contact.

So as far as I know there was no change in Jewish education in response 
to such a supposed locking-in.  Those who felt the need for outside 
knowledge were able to learn it, but they were generally not children. 
Those who thought their children needed such knowledge, and had the 
necessary resources, were generally able to provide it, but most people 
felt no such need, just as now.

As for the Rambam, the plain meaning of his words is that all 
"parpera'os lachochma" come after one has filled up on "bread and meat". 
  As the mishna says, "tekufos ugimatriaos", which I take to mean 
astronomy and geometry, are things that someone who is already a torah 
scholar will eventually feel the need for, to supplement what he already 
knows, and that's when he should learn them.


-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a healthy summer
z...@sero.name


------------------------------



_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


------------------------------


**************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah/avodahareivim-membership-agreement/


You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org


When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."

A list of common acronyms is available at
        http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah/avodah-acronyms
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)