Avodah Mailing List

Volume 39: Number 21

Tue, 09 Mar 2021

• 1. Re: Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha (Prof. Levine)
• 3. Seudos of Shabbos Erev Pesach (Akiva Miller)
• 4. Re: Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha (Prof. Levine)
• 5. Re: Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha (Prof. Levine)
• 7. Re: Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha (Micha Berger)
• 8. Sitting for Hamotzi (Prof. Levine)
• 9. Re: Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha (Prof. Levine)
• 10. Meshech Chochma on kedusha (Ben Bradley)
• 11. Re: Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Meshech Chochma on kedusha (Micha Berger)
• 13. hashgacha pratis (mco...@touchlogic.com)
• 14. Re: Meshech Chochma on kedusha (Micha Berger)

On Thu, Mar 04, 2021 at 07:28:35AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote:
> Isn't it preferable to eat while sitting?  It certainly used to be.  and, if
> this is so,  then isn't preferable to make Hamotzi while sitting?  If so,
> then it would be preferable to wash and then go back to one's table and make
> Hamotzi, even if one does make the bracha on a whole roll.

How is taking a bite from a whole roll more problematic than eating a
precut peice left by the washing station of the same size as that
bite?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

At 06:32 PM 3/3/2021, Micha Berger wrote:

> >> Q. Next to the washing station at a simcha hall there are cut up
> >> pieces of pita. At my table there is a whole roll....
>
> >> A. ... Regarding our original question, although in normal
> >> circumstances, it is preferable not to delay reciting Hamotzi,
> >> nonetheless, the importance of reciting Hamotzi on a whole loaf (which
> >> adds honor to the bracha) is an overriding consideration and takes
> >> precedence. (See Mishnah Berurah 167:4 and 27).
>
>Being a balebus, the balebatishe answer seems more obvious to me: Go to
>the table you are seated at, take a roll with you to the washing station,
>wash and make hamotzi on a whole roll.
>
>That said, I have noticed many kosher caterers use mini rolls at the
>washing station. I had assumed, to avoid this question.
Isn't it preferable to eat while sitting?  It certainly used to 
be.  and, if this is so,  then isn't preferable to make Hamotzi while 
sitting?  If so,  then it would be preferable to wash and then go 
back to one's table and make Hamotzi, even if one does make the 
bracha on a whole roll.

YL

.
Regarding the seudos of Shabbos Erev Pesach - I remember many conversations
in years past about making rolls from matza meal to use for these seudos,
and we discussed various recipes and what bracha would be said, and whether
or not they are allowed on Erev Pesach.

Have we ever discussed making a matza meal (or matza farfel) *kugel*? It
occurred to me that this would be a very simple solution (for those who eat
gebroks, obviously), at least for an early afternoon Seudah Shlishis. A
similar idea would be if a cholent could have enough matza in it that its
bracha is mezonos.

I could raise various issues and questions, but I think the best first step
is to ask whether we've already covered this.

Akiva Miller
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At 06:21 PM 3/4/2021, Micha Berger wrote:
>How is taking a bite from a whole roll more problematic than eating a
>precut peice left by the washing station of the same size as that
>bite?

You missed my point. When you go back to your table, you sit down and 
make the bracha,  and I think that this is the appropriate way to 
make HaMotzi, no matter what you make it on.

YL

On Fri, Mar 05, 2021 at 10:32:58AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote:
> You missed my point. When you go back to your table, you sit down and make
> the bracha,  and I think that this is the appropriate way to make HaMotzi,
> no matter what you make it on.

And that means an unnecessary pause between washing and eating the bread.
As well as puzzled people upset you didn't answer their greating.

The whole reason why the caterer put cubes of bread at the washing station
to begin with. Just with a nod to the preference to use a whole loaf.

Truth is, I didn't understand the original article's problem. When you
are washing, there is no whole loaf there. I'm not sure the preference
for whole goes as for as even when they aren't at hand.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 A cheerful disposition is an inestimable treasure.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   It preserves health, promotes convalescence,
Author: Widen Your Tent      and helps us cope with adversity.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF       - R' SR Hirsch, "From the Wisdom of Mishlei"

At 04:35 PM 3/5/2021, Micha Berger wrote:
>On Fri, Mar 05, 2021 at 10:32:58AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote:
> > You missed my point. When you go back to your table, you sit down and make
> > the bracha,  and I think that this is the appropriate way to make HaMotzi,
> > no matter what you make it on.
>
>And that means an unnecessary pause between washing and eating the bread.
>As well as puzzled people upset you didn't answer their greating.
>
>The whole reason why the caterer put cubes of bread at the washing station
>to begin with. Just with a nod to the preference to use a whole loaf.
>
>Truth is, I didn't understand the original article's problem. When you
>are washing, there is no whole loaf there. I'm not sure the preference
>for whole goes as for as even when they aren't at hand.

>>Question for you.  Most people do not have a wash sink in their 
>>dining room.  They wash for Hamotzi on Shabbos in the kitchen and 
>>then they walk to the dining room,  sit down, and make Hamotzi. 
>>According to you it would be preferable to  have lechem Mishneh 
>>next to the sink in the kitchen and make Hamotzi there,  since this 
>>would avoid " an unnecessary pause between washing and eating the 
>>bread."  Yet no one I know makes Hamotzi at the sink in the 
>>kitchen.  Everyone who does not have a sink in their dining room, 
>>wahses in the kitchen and then walks into the dining room,  sits 
>>down, and then makes Hamotzit.  This is clearly the preferable way 
>>to do things.


YL

On Sat, Mar 06, 2021 at 07:46:47PM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote:
>> And that means an unnecessary pause between washing and eating the bread.
>> As well as puzzled people upset you didn't answer their greating.

> Question for you.  Most people do not have a wash sink in their
> dining room.  They wash for Hamotzi on Shabbos in the kitchen and
> then they walk to the dining room,  sit down, and make Hamotzi.

You went from having someone choose a delay over making HaMotzi over a
piece rather than a whole bread to asking why people accept any delay
at all. My point was that it isn't an either or -- you can have HaMotzi
on a shaleim at the washing station.

This situation differs from what I wrote in two ways:

1- First, you set up a situation where the pause is far less avoidable.
Not the "unnecessary" pause of returning to your table from the washing
station when the caterer put bread cubes there to make HaMotzi on which
you choose not to use in order to make the berakhah on a shaleim.

Besides, sometimes, people can't even know which seat they want until
more people entered, they don't want a long line at the washing station
and want to wash before the crowd, so they are hunting for a spot after
HaMotzi.

2- When you wash for HaMotzi on Shabbos, everyone is up to the same
part of the meal. People know that others are between washing and
HaMotzi. People at a simchah have a wide variety of start times. The
odds that you are greeted and might reply, or they might not understand
why you aren't replying, are significant.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Like a bird, man can reach undreamed-of
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   heights as long as he works his wings.
Author: Widen Your Tent      But if he relaxes them for but one minute,
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    he plummets downward.   - Rav Yisrael Salanter

 From https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/85596/need-to-sit-for-hamotzi

Is there an obligation or a custom to sit down while saying 
<https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%9B%D7%AA_%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%A6%D7%99%D7%90_%D7%9C%D7%97%D7%9D_%D7%9E%D7%9F_%D7%94%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%A5>hamotzi? 
What about for the other before blessings 
(<https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%9B%D7%AA_%D7%91%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%90_%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%99_%D7%9E%D7%96%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%AA>borei 
minei mezonot, 
<https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%9B%D7%AA_%D7%91%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%90_%D7%A4%D7%A8%D7%99_%D7%94%D7%90%D7%93%D7%9E%D7%94>borei 
pri adamah, borei pri ha'etz, and 
<https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%9B%D7%AA_%D7%A9%D7%94%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%9C_%D7%A0%D7%94%D7%99%D7%94_%D7%91%D7%93%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%95>shehakol 
nihiye bidvaro)?


1 Answer

The Pri Megadim (opening to Brachos, 18) specifically states that 
there is no obligation to sit down for the Birchos HaNehenin 
(including the Hamotzi)

However, Chazal (Gitin p. 70) and so in the Rambam (Deios chapter 4 
Halacha 3) state that for good health and Derech Eretz one should eat 
while sitting. And since bread is being eaten while seated, as stated 
in the Mor Vektzia (mark 8) that "all things that are being done 
standing, the blessing should also be done standing. But things done 
while sitting, it is not proper to bless while standing, as in 
Birchas Hanehenin, but 
<https://judaism.meta.stackexchange.com/a/702>Bediavad 
<https://judaism.meta.stackexchange.com/a/608>Yatza"

YL

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At 11:15 AM 3/7/2021, Micha Berger wrote:
>You went from having someone choose a delay over making HaMotzi over a
>piece rather than a whole bread to asking why people accept any delay
>at all. My point was that it isn't an either or -- you can have HaMotzi
>on a shaleim at the washing station.

Again,  you have missed my main point,  which is that Hamotzi should 
preferably be made sitting not standing. At the washing station you 
are standing, At your table you are presumably sitting.  This is an 
important difference.

Indeed, Ashkenazim in general make kiddush sitting and Havdalah 
sitting which is in accordance with a Tosafos in Brachos,  I 
believe.  Sitting denotes a "permanence".  Standing is not the 
preferable way to eat.

YL

I can not now locate the most recent thread about the Meshech Chochma's
shita on kedusha, can't get the archive search to work, but IIRC R'MB said
the MC holds consistently that kedusha is never inherent to an object, it
is an outcome of Jewish input. It always requires human involvement.
So when my pre-hesder son came home from a few days sampling the avira
ruchani at Yeshivat Kerem B'Yavneh brandishing a source sheet from a shuir
on cheit ha'egel, I took a look at the meshech chochma ad loc, Shemos 32:19

He certainly says, and emphasises, that kedusha is never an indepedantly
inherent quality of a place or item. But his point there is that kedusha is
always comes from Hashem and is a function of His relationship from with
us. It originates with Hashem's tzivui and lasts as long as we relate to it
the correct way. If we mess up our attitude to the place or object in
question, the kedusha is removed.
Seems clear from his language that he's saying the kedusha does not
originate in our actions. It always originates with Hashem for the benefit
of our relationship with him, and lasts only as long as that is maintained
and as long as it serves that purpose. So WRT to the first luchos - 'Ein
bahem kedusha mi'tzad atzmam. Rak bishvilchem she'atem shomrim osam'. If we
damage the relationship mi'meila no more kedusha, We can't create kedusha
except so far as the Torah specifies, ie still originating in Hashem's
tzivui, but we can destroy it.

This, I think, is a far less radical take on kedusha and answers my questions as to how the MC's model of kedusha applies to kohanim and to time.
Ben
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On Sun, Mar 07, 2021 at 11:32:58AM -0500, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> At 11:15 AM 3/7/2021, Micha Berger wrote:
> Again,  you have missed my main point,  which is that Hamotzi should
> preferably be made sitting not standing...

This was the main point of the OU Halakhah Yomis you started the conversation
with:
> Regarding our original question, although in normal circumstances, it is
> preferable not to delay reciting Hamotzi, nonetheless, the importance of
> reciting Hamotzi on a whole loaf (which adds honor to the bracha) is an
> overriding consideration and takes precedence. (See Mishnah Berurah 167:4 and
> 27).

The author, you will note, didn't think that standing vs. sitting was an
issue. Just time delay vs having a shaleim. I replied that given those
two choices, you could take a roll off the table you're seated at with
you to the washing stationg.

(In terms of this din, it can equally be a roll from another table. But
I would think it's wrong to risk that the table you take from doesn't
have enough for the people seated there.)

If you want to discuss standing, that's an interesting question. Why didn't
the author of the OU page not consider making HaMotzi while sitting a
factor to weigh?

> Indeed, Ashkenazim in general make kiddush sitting and Havdalah sitting
> which is in accordance with a Tosafos in Brachos,  I believe.  Sitting
> denotes a "permanence".  Standing is not the preferable way to eat.

Actually, sitting for Havdalah is a Gra (Maaseh Rav) / Brisk style
innovation. Minhag Ashkenaz was to stand (Rama OC 296:6).

The reason why this was a much more common minhag than standing for
Qiddush is because the meal is eaten sitting. But otherwise, the Kol Bo
(41) said we would stand for both, as a show of kavod for the Shabbos
Malka. Just as he has us stand for Havdalah.

But back to the question of sitting... I don't think the need for qevi'us
is invoked for the berakhah itself, but for being yotzei another. (E.g.
Tosafos Berakhos 34a, "ho'il". In contrast, the SA OC 167:13 says you
can be yotzei others even if everyone is standing).

See AhS OC 296:17. He quotes the aforementioned Tosafos saying that since
people prepare themselves for Havdalah, there is qevi'us even when standing.
And one should stand as the king (King?, or or Who is the Shabbos Malka?)
departs. (Except, he notes, according to the Gra.)

So, if everyone is making their own HaMotzi at the wedding, sitting vs
standing is a non-issue.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 You are not a human being in search
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   of a spiritual experience. You are a
Author: Widen Your Tent      spiritual being immersed in a human
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    experience. - Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

On Mon, Mar 08, 2021 at 08:54:46AM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote:
> ... I took a look at the meshech chochma ad loc, Shemos 32:19

> He certainly says, and emphasises, that kedusha is never an indepedantly
> inherent quality of a place or item. But his point there is that kedusha
> is always comes from Hashem and is a function of His relationship from
> with us. It originates with Hashem's tzivui and lasts as long as we
> relate to it the correct way...

I think we are reading "ve'eizu qedushah beli mitzvas Hashem" differently.

You see it as a reference to the tzivui itself. I see it as a reference
to our performing the mitzvah. And so what you call "and lasts as long
as we relate to it the correct way" to me is just a natural consequence
of qedushah coming from our performance of a mitzvah. As R Meir Simchah
haKohein writes further down,
    ki ein benivra qedushah be'etzem
    raq mitzad shemiras Yisrael haTorah
    kefi Retzon haBorei yisbarakh shemo haqadosh...

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Between stimulus & response, there is a space.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   In that space is our power to choose our
Author: Widen Your Tent      response. In our response lies our growth
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    and our freedom. - Victor Frankl, (MSfM)

The question (machlokes) if a person's free will allows them to act
independently/against Hashems HP has been discussed here many times.

I found the following post to be a very insightful and practical nafaka
mina between those opinions
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2021/03/rape-does-g-d-want-someone-to-be-raped.html#disqus_thread

    A young lady once came to me for a theological consultation. This
    poised cheerful woman told me that when she was 10 she had been raped
    by two young yeshiva students at a religious summer camp. As a result
    of this incident she went into severe depression, became suicidal,
    and was finally placed in a mental hospital for an extended time. She
    said that baruch hashem, she had recovered and was no longer depressed
    or obsessed with revenge. Her visit was precipitated by having just
    seen her assailants walking down the street in Geula in Jerusalem
    with their wives and children -- as if they had never done anything
    evil. She said there was only one issue left from her experience
    which she couldn't come to grips with -- Why did G-d want her to be
    raped?" All the rabbis she had consulted with told her that it was
    G-d's will and that while they couldn't explain it that it must have
    been good and necessary. She just had to accept it as G-d's will. Her
    problem was that she couldn't accept that she worshipped a G-d that
    wanted this horrible thing to happen. I answered her that she was
    being told the dominant Chassidic/kabbalistic view. However I told
    her that [other] the Rishonim had a different view, i.e., that it
    is possible for a man to choose to hurt another -- even though G-d
    doesn't want it to happen. That she will be compensated in the Next
    World for her suffering but that G-d didn't cause it to happen. She
    was able to accept that view.

On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 11:20:10AM +0000, Ben Bradley wrote:
> He starts by saying that the kedushos of eretz yisroel and Yerushalayim
> are 'pratei usnifei haTorah v'niskadshu bikedushas ha Torah'. Ie the
> root is Hashem's Torah not our actions.

Our difference of opinion is not whether RMShK holds that qedushah means
G-dliness and thus must be connecting to Hashem's qedushah, to tzivui
and to Torah.

And thus all your quotes are consistent with my understanding, since
they aren't about our point of contention.

But:
Who is bringing the Torah into the world? Is EY qadosh because it is
the subject of extra mitzvos? Or is it qadosh because we do those
mitzvos?

If you say the MC's position is the latter, you don't have to explain
why Har Sinai loses qedushah as soon as Maamad Har Sinai is over, but
Har haBayis can be qadosh even without a BHMQ. Because it is people
who connect Divine Will with a place or object, when people lose that
association the qedushah is gone.

And then there is the text I quoted last time, which I think can only
be understood as the MC saying that qedushah comes from our bringing our
avodas Hashem, and thus His Will and His Qedushah, to the place or object.

    ... ein benivra qedushah be'etzem
    raq mitzad shemiras Yisrael haTorah
    kefi Retzon haBorei yisbarakh shemo haqadosh...


-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy'
http://www.aishdas.org/asp    'Joy is nothing but Torah.'
Author: Widen Your Tent       'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'"
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                   - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l


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