Volume 39: Number 11
Sun, 07 Feb 2021
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 14:46:25 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea?
On Thu, Feb 04, 2021 at 01:45:06PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis
>
> Q. What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea?
...
> Rav Meir Eizenshtat zt"l (1670-1744) ... writes in Panim Me'iros
> (2:190) that borei pri ha'adomah would be more appropriate, given that
> tea and coffee are grown specifically for use as beverages...
I know people in YU circles who make ha'eitz on chocolate for the parallel
reason. R SZ Auerback (Minchas Shelomo vol I 92:1) rules ha'eitz.
A related (I think) case in the SA is that of date butter (OC 202:7).
Date butter is "ha'eitz" for Sepharadim, because date butter was a
primary use of dates in the Mechaber's day. The Rama holds the safeiq
is real enough to justify "shehakol" as the catch-all.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger How wonderful it is that
http://www.aishdas.org/asp nobody need wait a single moment
Author: Widen Your Tent before starting to improve the world.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Anne Frank Hy"d
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Message: 2
From: Joseph Kaplan
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 19:39:20 +0000
Subject: [Avodah] sheasani yisrael
RJR wrote (39/10): ? About 50 years ago if I recall correctly I heard R' N
Alpert ZT"L say that the reason we don't say a bracha sheasani yisrael is
that HKBH can only give us the opportunity to be so but it is up to us to
make ourselves so.
It has stuck with me a long time.?
I?m not sure I understand. Aren?t we taught that a Yisrael, even one who
has sinned, remains a Yisrael? So each of us is a Yisrael by birth no
matter what we do.
Joseph (who has been saying sheasani yisrael for many decades)
Sent from my iPhone
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Message: 3
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 03:54:26 +0000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] sheasani yisrael
RJR wrote (39/10): ? About 50 years ago if I recall correctly I heard R' N
Alpert ZT"L say that the reason we don't say a bracha sheasani yisrael is
that HKBH can only give us the opportunity to be so but it is up to us to
make ourselves so.
It has stuck with me a long time.?
-----------------------------
I?m not sure I understand. Aren?t we taught that a Yisrael, even one who
has sinned, remains a Yisrael? So each of us is a Yisrael by birth no
matter what we do.
---------------------------------------------
My post was lhashkafa, lmaaseh CLOR :-)
Shabbat Shalom
Joel Rich
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Message: 4
From: Joseph Kaplan
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 05:13:22 +0000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] sheasani yisrael
RJR wrote (39/10): ? About 50 years ago if I recall correctly I heard R' N
Alpert ZT"L say that the reason we don't say a bracha sheasani yisrael is
that HKBH can only give us the opportunity to be so but it is up to us to
make ourselves so. It has stuck with me a long time.?
>
> -----------------------------
> I responded: I?m not sure I understand. Aren?t we taught that a
> Yisrael, even one who has sinned, remains a Yisrael? So each of us is
> a Yisrael by birth no matter what we do.
> ---------------------------------------------
> RJR replied: My post was lhashkafa, lmaaseh CLOR :-)
Me (again): So was mine.
Joseph
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Message: 5
From: Zev Sero
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 20:26:49 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea?
On 4/2/21 2:46 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> I know people in YU circles who make ha'eitz on chocolate for the parallel
> reason. R SZ Auerback (Minchas Shelomo vol I 92:1) rules ha'eitz.
I say ha'eitz on chocolate, and have never seen any legitimate source
for saying shehakol. To the best of my understanding it's simply an
amhoratzus that started because people didn't know what it was.
Remember that edible chocolate was only invented around 1800, so most
poskim never heard of it.
But the issue is very different from that of tea and coffee. The poskim
did know what those are, and said they are shehakol because the leaves
and beans are discarded and not consumed at all. That's why I was
surprised to read an opinion that they are subject to bishul akum.
That's obviously not the case with chocolate.
--
Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781
z...@sero.name "May this year and its curses end
May a new year and its blessings begin"
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Message: 6
From: Prof. L. Levine
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 16:40:44 +0000
Subject: [Avodah] Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or
From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis
Q. Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea?
A. Shulchan Aruch (OC 182:2; 272:9; 289:2; 296:2) writes that if there is
no wine available, one may recite Birchas Hamazon, Kiddush (see last
paragraph for further clarification about kiddush) or Havdalah on a
beverage that is prevalent in that location. This is known as Chamar
Medinah (the local wine).
Do tea or coffee qualify?
Rav Ovadia Yosef (Yebia Omer 3:19 and Yechaveh Daas 2:38) cites some
Acharonim who maintain that a beverage is only considered Chamar Medinah if
it is intoxicating. Based on this, Rav Ovadia Yosef rules that one should
not recite Havdalah on tea or coffee. Only alcoholic beverages such as beer
are acceptable. This was also the opinion of Rav Chaim Volozhener.
The Rogotchover suggests that even if it is necessary for chamar medina to
be intoxicating, milk can be considered an intoxicating beverage based on
the Gemara (Kerisos 13b)that a cohen may not perform the avodah in the Beis
Hamikdash after drinking milk. (Presumably, milk is intoxicating in the
sense that it causes drowsiness and affects a person?s mental state.)
However, Rav Y.D. Soloveichik (Mi?peninei Harav p. 87) rejects the
comparison between avodah and chamar medinah. Milk invalidates a cohen for
avodah because it causes drowsiness, while chamar medinah is limited to
actual intoxication.
On the other hand, the Aruch Hashulchan (OC 296:13), Igeros Moshe (OC 2:75)
and Tzitz Eliezer (8:16) write that in the absence of wine, if one has no
other choice, one may recite havdalah on coffee or tea. One may add milk to
their tea or coffee, but it is not necessary. Igeros Moshe explains that
these drinks are similar to wine because they are served to guests to
demonstrate distinction or respect, and not only to quench one?s thirst.
The Shulchan Aruch (OC 279:9) writes that there are different opinions
whether chamar medina may be used for Kiddush at night and during the day.
The Mishnah Berurah (272:27) rules that Chamar Medinah may be used for
Shabbos daytime kiddush, but should not be used for Friday night Kiddush,
If wine is not available, Friday night Kiddush should be recited on
challah.
YL
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Message: 7
From: Micha Berger
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 19:29:02 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea?
On Thu, Feb 04, 2021 at 08:26:49PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
>> I know people in YU circles who make ha'eitz on chocolate for the parallel
>> reason. R SZ Auerback (Minchas Shelomo vol I 92:1) rules ha'eitz.
> I say ha'eitz on chocolate, and have never seen any legitimate source for
> saying shehakol...
Take a look at Sha'arei Teshuvah OC 202:19, who gives his sources.
https://www.sefaria.org/Sha'arei_Teshuvah_on_Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.202.19
Teshuvos veHanhagos 1:187 says that since cacao wouldn't be eaten without
all those other ingrediants that make it chocolate, it's a shehakol.
RMF seems to assume the berakhah is a shehakol. And that when eating
chocolate covered raisins or nuts, both are primary. But concludes that
you should make the ha'eitz or ha'adamah on something else first and then
the shehakol on the chocolate. (IM OC 3:31) That does imply the chocolate
alone would be shehakol, no? (I don't know, maybe he discusses the case
of chocolate directly. I can only report on what Bar Ilan helped me find.)
Gut Voch!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Life isn't about finding yourself.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp Life is about creating yourself.
Author: Widen Your Tent - George Bernard Shaw
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF
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Message: 8
From: Micha Berger
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 19:30:41 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of
On Fri, Feb 05, 2021 at 04:40:44PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis
>
> Q. Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea?
> On the other hand, the Aruch Hashulchan (OC 296:13), Igeros Moshe (OC
> 2:75) and Tzitz Eliezer (8:16) write that in the absence of wine, if
> one has no other choice, one may recite havdalah on coffee or tea...
The AhS considers tea with sugar to be chamar medinah -- but only with
sugar. Gives you a sense of the price of sugar in Litta.
Gut Voch!
-Micha
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Message: 9
From: Zev Sero
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 20:45:42 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea?
On 6/2/21 7:29 pm, Micha Berger wrote:
> Take a look at Sha'arei Teshuvah OC 202:19, who gives his sources.
> https://www.sefaria.org/Sha'arei_Teshuvah_on_Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.202.19
Edible chocolate was invented around 1800, and did not exist in the
Shaarei Teshuva's day. He, like his source the Divrei Yosef (R Yosef
Ergas, 1685-1730), as well as the Pri Chadash on the question of bishul
akum and other acharonim, were all referring to hot chocolate, which was
the only kind that existed in their day. Hot chocolate is a closer
question than tea or coffee, because the cocoa itself is drunk and not
removed. But Divrei Yosef compares it to Shesisa, a drink made with
flour, which the gemara says is mezonos if it's thick but shehakol if
it's the consistency of a drink, even though the flour is in it and not
removed.
> Teshuvos veHanhagos 1:187 says that since cacao wouldn't be eaten without
> all those other ingrediants that make it chocolate, it's a shehakol.
Actually that is not his sevara, but one he quotes from the Minchas
Shlomo as a suggestion, but that the Minchas Shlomo himself questions
since it's a clear halacha that ground ginger mixed with sugar is
ha'adama (it says ha'etz but that must be a typo), since ginger cannot
be eaten on its own.
Aderaba, that is the greatest argument for it being ha'etz, since that
is not just the ikar way to eat the fruit but the only way. Even if the
sugar is the majority, it comes only to make the fruit edible, so it's
batel to it.
His own sevara for shehakol is that the taste of the sugar and other
ingredients is the ikar, and not that of the chocolate at all! But it
seems to me that anyone who eats chocolate will testify that it's not
so. It's not chocolate-flavored sugar, it's sugar-flavored chocolate,
even when the chocolate is less than 50%, kol shekein in those bars that
boast on the label of being 55% or 70% or 90% cocoa solids.
By the way, he quotes Pachad Yitzchak quoting Yad Malachi, a talmid of R
Yosef Ergas, who paskens (unlike his rebbe) to say Ha'eitz on hot chocolate!
> RMF seems to assume the berakhah is a shehakol.
That's just it. He doesn't consider the question and pasken on it. He
just assumes it. Who knows whether when he wrote that he had any idea
what chocolate is.
That's my contention about why the worlds says shehakol; they just don't
know what it is, or else they're relying on their predecessors who
didn't know what it was. None of them considered it. They came to
America and found it there in the stores, and assumed it was just
another kind of candy, and thus subsumed into the question of sugar,
which we pasken is shehakol.
--
Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781
z...@sero.name "May this year and its curses end
May a new year and its blessings begin"
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