Avodah Mailing List

Volume 39: Number 10

Thu, 04 Feb 2021

• 1. R e: May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread (Marty Bluke)
• 2. Milk is Produced also by non-Kosher parts of the Cow (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 3. Re: min hatorah (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Yaakov's Reaction (Micha Berger)
• 5. sheasani yisrael (Rich, Joel)
• 6. Rav Soloveitchik (Rich, Joel)
• 7. Re: Concern of bishul akum with coffee (Akiva Miller)
• 8. Re: Concern of bishul akum with coffee (Zev Sero)
• 9. What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? (Prof. L. Levine)

Rav Meir Twersky in Beis Yitchak suggested this as pshat in tosafos. He
suggests that when tosafos explains the difference between kli rishon and
kli sheini as whether the walls are hot it is not based on metzius but
rather whether it is normal to cook that way. It is normal to cook in a kli
rishon because the walls are hot and therefore it is prohibited. It is not
normal to cook in a kli sheini because the walls are cold and therefore
permitted. Likewise, by kalei habishul since they cook easily people cook
then in a kli sheini and therefore you are chayav.
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The Gemara Chullin 69a documents a very strange discussion.

R Yirmiyah asks - is the milk from a cow that has an Issur Yotzeh, Kosher?
An Issur Yotzeh is generated when a foetus in utero extends a limb to the
outside and then the mother is Shechted.
That limb is permanently prohibited and cannot be made Kosher. The rest of
the foetus is Kosher.

The Gemara explains - ALL milk ought to be Assur, because it comes from a
living animal and is like Eiver Min HaChay, and only by force of a special
Limmud is it Kosher.
On the one hand perhaps that also permits the milk of the cow with the
Issur Yotzeh
on the other hand, perhaps the Torah only permits milk from a prohibited
source which CAN BE revoked via Shechita, whereas the Issur Yotzeh cannot
ever be revoked which makes the milk Assur.

Why is the Issur Yotzeh different from the Cheilev and Gid that are present
in every cow that produces milk?


Best,

Meir G. Rabi

0423 207 837
+61 423 207 837
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On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 05:22:09PM -0500, Zvi Lampel via Avodah wrote:
> He begins his chapter on Mevo HaTalmud by saying that most matters learned
> from Nach have the same status as anything learned from Chumash, based upon
> the references you and I have cited, as well as several others. So, it
> comes out that Chazal had a kabalah that these matters were in Torah
> Shebe-al Peh MiSinai, but knew that they were not indicated in Toras Moshe,
> or could not find any such indication. But they pointed out that they found
> that they were eventually committed to either explicit or drash-indicated
> writing in Nach.

An exception can be found in an oft-cited pasuq, in Yeshiah 57:13 (used
by many in / as an introduction to Shabbos morning Qiddush). Mentions
a number of shevusim, including masa umatan.

I can see how a pasuq in Tanakh can be cited to show there is some TSBP
that was already in place and in practice by the time the navi recorded
the. But how can we prove whether those pre-existing dinim are really
deOraisa? Seems that "mo "most matters learned from Nach have the same
status as anything learned from Chumash" could have numerous exceptions.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 If you won't be better tomorrow
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   than you were today,
Author: Widen Your Tent      then what need do you have for tomorrow?
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF            - Rebbe Nachman of Breslov

On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 03:43:41AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> Any explanation why when the brothers reported back from Egypt, Yaakov's
> first response was why did you tell the viceroy you were family/had a
> brother? What was the value at that point?

isn't a parent supposed to make sure children learn from their mistakes
rather than repeat them? Knowing to watch what you're saying has broad
applicability in life. If Yaaqov makes sure they see they have that
problem, they are that less likely to say too much in other situations.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

About 50 years ago if I recall correctly I heard R' N Alpert ZT"L say that
the reason we don't say a bracha sheasani yisrael is that HKBH can only
give us the opportunity to be so but it is up to us to make ourselves so.
It has stuck with me a long time.
KT
Joel Rich

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Thoughts on the following as applied to Rabbi JB Soloveitchik?

James Gleick-"There are two kinds of geniuses: the 'ordinary' and the
'magicians'. An ordinary genius is a fellow whom you and I would be just as
good as, if we were only many times better. There is no mystery as to how
his mind works. Once we understand what they've done, we feel certain that
we, too, could have done it. It is different with the magicians. Even after
we understand what they have done it is completely dark. Richard Feynman is
a magician of the highest caliber."

The Feynman Algorithm:
Write down the problem.
Think real hard.
Write down the solution.
The Feynman algorithm was facetiously suggested by Murray Gell-Mann, a colleague of Feynman, in a New York Times interview.
KT
Joel Rich

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ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
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.
This past August, R' Yitzhok Levine cited the OU's "Halacha Yomis":

> From
https://oukosher.org/halacha-yomis/i-will-be-travelling-and-would-like-to-know-if-there-is-a-concern-of-bishul-akum-with-coffee-a-consumers-question
>    I will be travelling and would like to know if there is a concern
>    of bishul akum with coffee? (A consumer's question)
>    OU Kosher Certification
>
>    Ostensibly, the prohibition of bishul akum should apply to coffee. As
>    previously explained, a cooked food which cannot be eaten raw and is
>    "oleh al shulchan melachim" (served at fancy dinners) requires bishul
>    Yisroel. Raw coffee beans are inedible, a...
>
> See the above URL for more.

In a subsequent post, I quoted the conclusion of that paragraph, which was:

> Nonetheless, the Pri Chodosh writes that brewed coffee need
> not be bishul Yisroel, since coffee is primarily water, and
> water does not require bishul Yisroel.

I have been uneasy with the idea that "primarily water" could be sufficient
reason to downgrade the chashivus of a food to the point where it would be
exempt from Bishul Yisroel. R' Micha Berger (in this same thread) pointed
out that Bishul Yisroel and Chamar Medina seem to have different standards
of chashivus.

Another halacha that may be related to the above appeared in today's
Halacha Yomis, at
https://oukosher.org/halacha-yomis/must-terumah-and-maaser-tithes-be-separated-from-tea-or-herbal-leaves-that-are-grown-in-israel

> Must Terumah and Ma'aser (tithes) be separated from tea or
> herbal leaves that are grown in Israel?
>
> Tosofos (Nida 50a s.v. Kol) writes that there are two categories
> of spices with regard to Teruma and Ma'aser: a) Spices that are
> eaten together with other foods. These require the separation of
> teruma and ma'aser. b) Spices that are removed after the cooking
> and are discarded. These do not require Teruma and Ma'aser. It
> should follow that tea and herbal leaves do not require separation
> of Teruma and Ma'aser since the tea leaves are removed after
> brewing and are not consumed. Indeed, many Poskim rule this way.
> However, Rav Sternbuch (Teshuvos V'Hanhagos 4:250) writes that tea
> leaves are not the same as spices that are discarded. Ordinarily,
> a spice is added to add flavor to another food. Since it is not
> the main ingredient and it is discarded, it lacks importance, and
> Teruma and Ma'aser are not required. On the other hand, tea leaves
> are more than a flavoring agent. The leaves are the essential
> ingredients in tea. Because the tea leaves are significant, Teruma
> and Ma'aser should be separated.

I can't help but wonder if Rav Sternbuch might hold - because the tea
leaves are significant - that tea *is* subject to Bishul Yisroel.

If he does not, that might lend weight to my suspicion that "primarily
water" is merely code for "liquids" in the Mimetic Tradition, i.e., that
liquids simply are not a concern. (In the Textual Tradition, "primarily
water" is an exemption from Bishul Yisroel because water is normally eaten
raw, which might not apply to tea leaves and coffee beans.)

Akiva Miller
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>  > However, Rav Sternbuch (Teshuvos V'Hanhagos 4:250) writes that tea
>  > leaves are not the same as spices that are discarded. Ordinarily,
>  > a spice is added to add flavor to another food. Since it is not
>  > the main ingredient and it is discarded, it lacks importance, and
>  > Teruma and Ma'aser are not required. On the other hand, tea leaves
>  > are more than a flavoring agent. The leaves are the essential
>  > ingredients in tea. Because the tea leaves are significant, Teruma
>  > and Ma'aser should be separated.

In that case why isn't tea ha'adamah, just like vegetable soup?  The 
reason given is because there is no substance of the leaves in the tea, 
unlike soup where the vegetables are left in it and are consumed with 
it, and thus constitute the ikar.  But according to this that shouldn't 
matter.


-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781
z...@sero.name       "May this year and its curses end
                      May a new year and its blessings begin"

From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis


Q. What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea?

A. This is a complex question, as it is touches on a number of principals
that emerge from halachic discussions about the brachos for vegetable soup,
fruit soup and beer. Important responsa on this topic were composed about
300 years ago by some of the great poskim of the eighteenth century. One of
the first recorded teshuvos on this topic is found in Perach Mateh Aharon
(siman 40), who ruled that the appropriate beracha is shehakol. Rav Meir
Eizenshtat zt?l (1670-1744) disagrees. He writes in Panim Me?iros (2:190)
that borei pri ha?adomah would be more appropriate, given that tea and
coffee are grown specifically for use as beverages. Indeed, Rav Meir notes
that when visiting the city of Worms Germany, he observed the great chasid,
Rav Shmuel Shatin, reciting borei pri ha?adomah on a cup of tea. Rav Meir
challenged Rav Shmuel that it is customary to recite a shehakol. Rav Shmuel
responded that a minhag that was not established by Rabbonim has no
validity. Nonetheless, the Panim Me?e
 iros concludes a long teshuva by saying that while in theory he sides with
 Rav Shmuel, but in practice, he does not wish to break with common
 practice and recites shehakol. Subsequent poskim have defended the custom
 to recite a shehakol on coffee and tea with various explanations, and that
 is almost universally accepted.


YL

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