Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 121

Fri, 19 Oct 2018

• 1. Two witnesses (Joseph Kaplan)
• 2. Re: Two witnesses (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: Eishes Yefas Toar and Pruzbul (David Riceman)
• 4. Re: Apparently conflicting Stam (David Riceman)
• 5. Re: The Shape of the Tavah (Toby Katz)
• 6. Re: Shapiro Gives Fiery, Unprecedented Assault On Abortion On His Fox News Special (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Shapiro Gives Fiery, Unprecedented Assault On Abortion On His Fox News Special (Toby Katz)
• 8. ?Honor your father and your mother, lest you be punished through your children!? (Professor L. Levine)
• 9. "Use of Hairspray on Shabbos" (Professor L. Levine)

Zev Sero commented:
?On Micha's remarks it implies that the court can sentence someone to
death even though the facts might not be true.

As evidenced by the fact that if the witnesses recant after the verdict,
even if their recantation seems credible we execute the person anyway.?

What, if anything, does this teach us ? about Halacha or morality or the
value of human life or anything else? Or perhaps to paraphrase Joel Rich?s
question: Is this what God wants?
Joseph

Sent from my iPhone
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On 16/10/18 08:10, Joseph Kaplan wrote:
> Zev Sero commented On Micha's remarks:

>>> it implies that the court can sentence someone to death even though
>>> the facts might not be true.

>> As evidenced by the fact that if the witnesses recant after the verdict,
>> even if their recantation seems credible we execute the person anyway.

> What, if anything, does this teach us ? about Halacha or morality or the 
> value of human life or anything else? Or perhaps to paraphrase Joel 
> Rich?s question: Is this what God wants?

Well, we *know* that it is indeed what He wants.  That is surely beyond 
all question.  All we can discuss is *why* He wants it, and what lessons 
we can draw from this counterintuitive fact.


-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 5779 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

> RMB:
> 
> 
> So why the difference in approach? Why wasn't ribis permitted keneged YhR,
> or lending past shemittah, or qinyan deOraisa be when the buyer takes
> posession of the merchandise, rather than the seller takes the money?
> Again, all for the sake of keneged YhR?

It is in general true that the Torah prefers to regulate strong emotions
(like greed and lust) rather than to extirpate them.  See for example Hagigah
9b ?yaeh aniyusa liyehudaei ??, and yet the Torah doesn?t prohibit wealth (though
see Parshas Shoftim 17:16-17), though historically several communities have enacted 
sumptuary laws.  And see H. Deos 1:4-5 about the difference between
a tzaddik and a hasid.  The Rambam implies (at the end of 1:5) that he prefers tzidkus
to hasidus but see H. Deos 6:1 that this applies only in a virtuous society.

It is in general true that the Torah allows multiple regimes, so that it is open to differing
economic regulation (as you observe).  On a technical level, however, I don?t see how
we could permit yefas toar if the Torah prohibited it, so that would reduce rather than increase our options.

But there?s a more important point.  What?s weird about war is that it?s not a permanent state.
One has to make the transition between civilian/soldier/civilian, and very different rules apply
in those different contexts (look again at H. Deos 6:1).  When Hazal say ?hasatan mekatreg b'shaas hamilhama? that?s partly
because the soldiers don?t have years of experience internalizing the rules of war.

But economic change (from Biblical small farmer to Hazal large estates to rishonim merchants)
was generational, and it is much easier for a person to regulate his own YhR internally if his
temptations are uniform over his lifetime.

So it makes a lot of sense that k?nagged YhR is specifically mentioned in the context of milhama.

David Riceman

[Corrected as per a follow-up email. -micha]

RMLFI:
> I have done some quick research through the Hakdamas Hamishna Larambam,
> Klallei Hamishna, and some other sources, but nevertheless, if someone
> can direct me to sources and research on as much detail as possible
> as to *what transpired in the process of the Mishna being written* it
> would be much appreciated.

If you really mean that read through YL Epstein's "Hakdamah L'Nusach
HaMishnah". Albeck wrote a (shorter) "Hakdamah L'Mishnah" and, IIRC,
[Epstein also] wrote a "Hakdamah L'Sifrut HaTanaim".

There's a mahlokes rishonim whether the mishna is a sefer peak or
an encyclopedia of sources. This is related to the machlokes amoraim
about whether halacha k'stam mishna. But it is possible for mishnayot
with contradictory anonymous conclusions to have been edited by the
same person.

David Riceman

In a message dated 10/15/2018
?

From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>


>> However, RSRH's observation that Noach built a teivah, not a boat,
didn't compel him to say that the box was atop the water, or that
the bottom was larger than the top. For that matter, the Torah describes
it like it was shaped like a brick -- just length, width and height, no
other details about appearance except the tzohar, if the tzohar was a
window. <<


>>>>>
?
?
?
The bottom may have been flat but not the top.? See Ber 6:16
"A window [tzohar] shall you make for the Ark, and to a cubit finish it from above...." (ArtScroll translation)
?
I understand this to mean that the sides of the ark, at least the upper
level, were slanted so that rain would run off (the reason most roofs of
houses are slanted rather than flat).? At the top it only one square cubit
wide, where the window (if the tzohar was a window, or possibly an LED
light) was set in place.
?
?
--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
?
=============
?
______________________________
?
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On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 12:29:42AM -0400, Toby Katz wrote:
: He has been influenced by Christian (especially Catholic) thinking on
: this subject, and is probably unaware of the Jewish view. Halacha does
: not consider the killing of a fertilized egg to be the same as abortion,
: let alone the same as murder...

This "let alone" undermines his whole thesis.

Few akharonim take the Rambam to mean that abortion is murder, and of
those who do, not all hold like their understanding of the Rambam.

: We Torah Jews have more in common with devout Christians on these
: issues than with secular Jews and gentiles. At least pro-life Christians
: recognize such a thing as morality. But it is a mistake to assume that
: Jewish (Torah) views and Christian views are identical.

Or even to start with the assumption they are similar. It is best to just
look up our views, and then see pragmatically which party to work with.
Rather than identify with either camp and risk assimilating their values.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Feeling grateful  to or appreciative of  someone
mi...@aishdas.org        or something in your life actually attracts more
http://www.aishdas.org   of the things that you appreciate and value into
Fax: (270) 514-1507      your life.         - Christiane Northrup, M.D.

?
From: "Prof. Levine" <larry62...@optonline.net>
> IMO many people do not really understand the implications of an 
> abortion. I certainly did not fully grasp this until I saw Ben 
> Shapiro's take on abortion.

>> Ben Shapiro is a conservative commentator who is
>> Orthodox. Indeed, he proudly wears a yarmulka all of the time when
>> he speaks and is being interviewed.
...
>> Human life is a continuous process of growth, from the moment of
>> fertilization onward. Abortion is the killing of this human life......

Ben Shapiro is a brilliant commentator and makes a powerful case against
abortion. He also makes a Kiddush Hashem by publicly identifying as an
Orthodox Jew and always wearing a yarmulka. However, I am troubled by
this statement of his:

>> Human life is a continuous process of growth, from the moment of
>> fertilization onward. Abortion is the killing of this human life......

He has been influenced by Christian (especially Catholic) thinking on this
subject, and is probably unaware of the Jewish view. Halacha does not
consider the killing of a fertilized egg to be the same as abortion, let
alone the same as murder. If a young woman is raped c'v the very best and
most prudent thing she should do is take the "morning after pill" which
prevents implantation of a fertilized ovum. To many Christians the morning
after pill is exactly the same as abortion or infanticide, but the Torah
does not view it that way.

When a certain couple with whom I am intimately acquainted were undergoing
IVF treatment in order to have children (which they ultimately did,
B'H), they asked their most serious shailos of a very prominent posek
in Baltimore. One shaila was what to do with excess embryos that were
created in the lab. An embryo is just a fertilized ovum that has developed
into a tiny little ball of cells, could be just eight or sixteen cells
at first. When you hear that embryos are created in a lab and sometimes
frozen to be thawed and implanted at a later date, please do not imagine
that little babies are in the freezer. (Only in Lakewood are young humans
put in the freezer.)

Since multiple pregnancies are hazardous for the mother and often do not
have a good outcome for the babies, as a rule no more than three embryos
are implanted in the uterus at one time. In IVF powerful hormones are
given which often result in the release of multiple eggs at ovulation,
which in turn result in multiple embryos at fertilization. But if you
are not going to implant more than three, what do you do with the extras?

The posek told the couple that they could do what they wanted -- freeze
the extras for a later attempt, or discard them.

Catholics would consider the discarding of these little balls to be the
same thing as murder, and possibly they would consider putting them in
a freezer to be child abuse.

We Torah Jews have more in common with devout Christians on these
issues than with secular Jews and gentiles. At least pro-life Christians
recognize such a thing as morality. But it is a mistake to assume that
Jewish (Torah) views and Christian views are identical. I suspect that
Ben Shapiro is not aware of a very important distinction.

--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com

The following is from RSRH's commentary on Bereishis 9:24


24 When Noach awoke from his wine, he learned what his youngest
son had done to him.


Nevertheless, it is shocking that Noach curses Cham through his

child. This constitutes a serious warning: ?Honor your father and your
mother, lest you be punished through your children!? Cham must not
sin against Noach, lest he be punished through Canaan! Sins that children
commit against their parents will be punished by the manner in
which their own children, in turn, will deal with them!

The same rule applies in the development of the generations. The
younger generation must stand reverently at the grave of the generation
that preceded it. It must take a garment and cover the nakedness, the
weakness, of its forebears, and at the same time receive from them their
spiritual legacy, so as to build its own future. Only then will the generations
develop like a flourishing tree. But if the new generation gloats,
like Cham, over the ?nakedness? of its ancestors; if it sees only their
human frailties and derides their spiritual tradition; if the sons scornfully
sever the bond with the generation of the fathers ? then their
own future, too, is only a dream: Just as they sneered at the memory
of their forefathers, so will their own descendants sneer at them. Cham
is always the father of Canaan!

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From https://goo.gl/7m1UWj


Halacha L'kovod Shabbos - "Use of Hairspray on Shabbos"

One is permitted to spray one's hair (e.g. sprinkle or hand-pat water on
frizzy hair) on Shabbos as long as it is not very wet, because the Melocho
of Melabain (cleaning or scouring) does not apply to the human body. (If
the hair gets very wet it may not be squeezed out since hair is subject to
the prohibition of S'chita - squeezing). However, the use of hairspray
which will stiffen the hair and form a structure may involve the Melocho of
Boneh (building). If one sprays the hair first and then styles and shapes
it; this would be prohibited on Shabbos because it is similar to Boneh.
However, some poskim permit the use of hairspray if one is careful to first
style and shape the hair, and then only afterwards add the hairspray. When
done in this manner the loose hair is shaped at the time of styling, and
does not resemble Boneh because the hair is loose. The subsequent spraying
merely acts to retain a pre-existing shape. Once the hair has been sprayed
it can no longer be shaped, styled,
  or touched. {We mentioned previously that the use of hairspray on Shabbos does not involve the Melocho of Zoreh.}



Shulchan Aruch w/Mishnah Brurah 302, Shmiras Shabbos Kehilchasa 14:50:131,
Kitzur Hilchos Shabbos re:Gozez:5:16, Biur Halacha 303:27, Hilchos Shabbos
R' Shimon Eider, Minchas Yitzchok 6:26, Sefer 39 Melochos

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