Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 97

Mon, 27 Aug 2018

• 1. Re: May a non-observant Jew be counted towards a minyan? (Micha Berger)
• 2. Ben Sorar Umoreh (Professor L. Levine)
• 3. alexa sale? (Rich, Joel)
• 4. Re: alexa sale? (Saul Guberman)
• 5. Re: alexa sale? (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: alexa sale? (Rich, Joel)
• 7. Minyan, Including A Child (Professor L. Levine)
• 8. Re: Minyan, Including A Child (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: Minyan, Including A Child (Micha Berger)

On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 12:51:37PM +0000, Professor L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis
...
:                            Rav Moshe Feinstein, zt"l (Igros Moshe OC 1:23)
: writes that if no one else is available one may include a non-believer
: as well in a minyan and recite Kaddish, Kedusha and Barchu. Rav Moshe
: reasons that the basis for a minyan is derived from the ten spies. The
: ten spies rebelled against G-d, and yet they constituted a minyan. If so,
: we see that all Jews may be included in a minyan, especially a Jew that
: was never taught to be observant (tinok she'nishbah).

Four separate comments:
 
RMF doesn't mention tinoq shenishba. He just says it's permissible to
count mechallelei Shabbos and other mumarim. I assume the last sentence
I quoted was intended to mean "we see" -- we of the OU see from the IM --
and not part of the paraphrase of the teshuvah.

The presentation is that RMF wrote "Nevertheless", ie despite the
prior sources including the SA. However, he cites the SA (siman 69),
as a source that we don't need 10 participants, but 10 mechuyavim.

Notably the title includes "beshe'as hadechaq".

I think RMF would have agreed with RALichtenstein's caveat, but I am
just guessing based on how the teshuvah is framed, that the meshalel
Shabbos still has to believe in HQBH and that tefillah is meaningful.


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "The most prevalent illness of our generation is
mi...@aishdas.org        excessive anxiety....  Emunah decreases anxiety:
http://www.aishdas.org   'The Almighty is my source of salvation;  I will
Fax: (270) 514-1507      trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya

Please see Ben Sorar Umoreh<https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/ben_sorar_moreh.pdf>
by RSRH (Collected Writing VII)


This essay gives some important insights into Chinuch.


YL
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Reuvain awakes in the middle of the night and, forgetting that it is
Shabbat, blurts out, "I really want to sell my chametz." Then, realizing
that it's Shabbat, he makes a mental note to take care of it after Shabbat.
He then forgets about it until after Pesach has already started.
However, Alexa heard his pronouncement, made a complete list of his
chameitz, found the website that he used the previous year to sell his
chameitz and transmitted the fully filled out forms with the password. The
sale was completed by the Rabbi running the website. Is Reuvain's chameitz
usable by him after Pesach? Does it make a difference if Alexa waited 'till
after Shabbat to transmit?
KVCT
Joel Rich

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On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 3:00 PM Rich, R Joel wrote:
> Reuvain awakes in the middle of the night and, forgetting that it is
> Shabbat, blurts out, "I really want to sell my chametz." Then, realizing
> that it's Shabbat, he makes a mental note to take care of it after Shabbat.
> He then forgets about it until after Pesach has already started.
> However, Alexa heard his pronouncement...

Why would the Alexa step be any different than you typing into your
computer.   All electronic, no physical kinyan happens.

On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 03:04:48PM -0400, Saul Guberman wrote:
: Why would the Alexa step be any different than you typing into your
: computer.   All electronic, no physical kinyan happens.

He was talking to himself, not intentially to Alexa.

I don't think maqneh shelo midaas is a thing.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Feeling grateful  to or appreciative of  someone
mi...@aishdas.org        or something in your life actually attracts more
http://www.aishdas.org   of the things that you appreciate and value into
Fax: (270) 514-1507      your life.         - Christiane Northrup, M.D.

Saul Guberman wrote:
: Why would the Alexa step be any different than you typing into your
: computer.   All electronic, no physical kinyan happens.

He was talking to himself, not intentially to Alexa.

I don't think maqneh shelo midaas is a thing.
-Micha

-- 
Assume as he woke he had full intent to sell just not knowledge it was shabbat. What if instead of alexa it was his non-Jewish assistant?
If an individual on Tuesday said to his loyal assistant, I want to sell my chametz and the assistant did everything, does that work? Is it shlichut?  
What if you wrote an email to your rabbi in February and had your computer automatically send it in march before pesach? Is it shlichut of a mechanical type?
kvct
joel
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ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
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Thank you.

From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis


Q. I remember hearing that if there are only nine men over bar-mitzvah but
there is also a child present, the child can hold a Chumash and be counted
in the minyan. Is this correct?



A. The Gemara (Brachos 47b) relates several exceptional cases where we do
not require a minyan to consist of ten adult men. One of these rulings is
that of Rebbi Yehoshua ben Levi who taught that although a child cannot be
counted towards a Zimun, he may be counted as an adjunct to a minyan (i.e.
nine adults and a child). The Gemara ends by declaring that the halacha
does not follow any of these special rulings. Tosfos (48a s.v. v?leis)
writes that when the Gemara stated that the halacha does not follow these
opinions, it was not referring to the ruling of Rebbi Yehoshua ben Levi
about counting a child as the tenth, which is the halacha. However, Beis
Yosef (Shulchan Aruch OC 55:4) rules that most poskim do not accept the
ruling of Rebbi Yehoshua ben Levi, and one may not include a child. The
Rama, though, writes that some have the custom to allow counting a child if
it is a difficult situation. The Mishnah Berurah (55:24) writes that the
majority of poskim do not allow a chi
 ld to be
  counted as one of the ten in a minyan even if he holds a Chumash. Every community should follow the ruling of the local rabbi.


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Note that for those who do allow counting a child, the chumash is an 
unnecessary prop; the minhag has developed to have the child hold a 
chumash in order to impress on him (or her) the seriousness of the 
occasion, but it has no basis in halacha.

Also note that the same heter for including a child also applies to a 
woman.   Either one follows this minority opinion or one does not, but 
if one does then there is no reason to use a boy rather than a girl or 
an adult woman.

PS: In the early '50s, when the L community in Melbourne was just 
getting started, they asked the LR about relying on this heter.  His 
instruction was not to, even if it meant davening without a minyan.


-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 5779 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 12:28:11PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: Note that for those who do allow counting a child, the chumash is an
: unnecessary prop; the minhag has developed to have the child hold a
: chumash in order to impress on him (or her) the seriousness of the
: occasion, but it has no basis in halacha.

I ran services in the O synagogue in Fall River, MA, for a couple of
years. (My complements to Cantor Wolberg, who volunteered to be their
"search committee", despite having his own synagogue's services to
worry about.)

One Mussaf, we were one man short -- someone slipped out when my back
was turned. (Literally, probably during Qaddish; the amud was at the
bimah was abutting the duchan. So facing front for Qaddish, I couldn't
see the minyan.)

I was worried about flagging loyalty, who would bother shlepping out
for services that may or may not really happen, so I relied on this heter.

I made the kid hold a (pasul, at least the gartel was on the outside)
sefer Torah.

But when I came back the next year, he was still talking about how he
got to make the minyan the year before. I hope something positive came
of his involvement.

: Also note that the same heter for including a child also applies to
: a woman...

Except, for the same reason that I would have the child hold a prop,
I would choose a boy over a woman. You may be teaching the wrong lesson
by opening the door to counting women.

When pushing the envelope, image and education are important. Or people
may cantilever beyond the limits of the permittable. The risk *might*
be significant enough to call the wrong choice "assur".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

PS: Linux's "ispell" wanted me to correct "minyan" to "Minoan". <grin>

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is capable of changing the world for the
mi...@aishdas.org        better if possible, and of changing himself for
http://www.aishdas.org   the better if necessary.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning


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