Volume 36: Number 88
Sat, 28 Jul 2018
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Ari Kahn
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 15:34:12 +0000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] What is SinAs Chinam
Re: Avodah Digest, Vol 36, Issue 87 - What is SinAs Chinam (Zev Sero)
I don't see how Rabbi Miller can exonerate R' Zecharya, the Bavli in
Gitten (Rav Yochanan -- an Amora) blames him, as does the Tosefta (Rav
Yosah -- a Tana) in Shabbat
[The two quotes below which digest readers will see as a collection of
"?" are:
1- Gittin 56a, "Anvanuso shel RZBA..." as we've been discussing
<https://www.sefaria.org/Gittin.56a.5?lang=he&;with=Commentary&lang2=he>
2- Tosefta Shabbos (Lieberman 16:7, Sefaria 17:4):
<https://www.sefaria.org/Tosefta_Shabbat.17.4>
-micha]
????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ??/?
????? ?????? ????????, ?????????????? ???? ?????? ????????? ??? ??????????
?????????? ??? ?????????, ?????????? ??? ??????????,
?????? ???? ??? (??????) ??? ?? ???? ?
??? ??? ???' ??????? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ???' ???? ?? ?????
???? ?????? ????? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ?? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???
??? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ??' ?' ???? ?????????????? ???? ??????
????????? ??? ?????????? ??? ???? ?? ?????
Go to top.
Message: 2
From: Ben Bradley
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 11:55:49 +0000
Subject: [Avodah] What is SinAs Chinam
That gemara doesn't mention sinas chinam anywhere. Which is why Maharsha
has to note that it's related to the background of sinas chinam we know
about from elsewhere.
Trying to put the Bar Kamtza story directly into a sinas chinam context
ignores the explicit introduction of the gemara. The while story is
introduced by R Yochanan in the context of a pasuk from mishlei 'ashrei
adam mfached tamid' , referring to someone who is ro'eh es hanolad
according to Rashi , only then does the gemara say 'al K v'al BK charav
yerushalyim'.
Where does ro'eh es hanolad fit in here? Seems to be that it means that
RZbA realised what would happen if he didn't bring the chicken, but refused
in any case because that was the right thing to do. R Yochanan's editorial
comment on that is that had he killed Bar Kamtza, as the chachamim
suggested, he could have prevented the churban. Whether that is intended as
praise or criticism may be a matter of debate. But either reading of R
Yochanans comment doesn't change the basic point of the gemara which is to
relate the immediate events leading up to the churban in the context of
RZbA and his mida of ro'eh es hanolad. The background of sinas chinam may
be relevant to the story but not to the point of the gemara as evidenced by
its introduction.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20180727/3ce72501/attachment-0001.html>
Go to top.
Message: 3
From: Toby Katz
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 04:14:07 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] one way to spend Tisha B'Av
Although you are not supposed to learn Torah on Tisha B'Av, I took the
liberty of studying (rather than just reciting) several of the Kinos this
year, comparing the translations and commentaries of the ArtScroll Kinos,
R' Abraham Rosenfeld, and Rav Soloveitchik in the Koren edition. I did
not find any one of these to be superior to the others; rather, each
one was better in some places and worse in others.
Looking at the Kinah which is numbered 37 in A/S and in the Koren (number
39 in Rosenfeld) I found some interesting comments. This is the Kinah that
begins with the words, <<Tzion kechi kol tzari Gilad
letzirayiach.>> (<<Zion, take all the balm of Gilead for your
wounds...>>)
About a third of the way down there is a passage that reads, <<Bach
sod hateudah vesod chachmos/ uva'u venei Kedem vechachmei Sheva lichtov
sefarayich.>>
Here are three translations, copied exactly. Words that appear in
parentheses were in parentheses in the original, where parenthetical words
and phrases are in effect a form of commentary. You will see, for example,
that A/S considers the word <<hateudah>> to be a reference to
the Torah.
ArtScroll: You are the repository of the secrets of (Torah) tradition and
the secrets of wisdom, so the (wise) men of the Orient and the scholars of
Sheba came to transcribe your books.
Rosenfeld: Secret testimonies and hidden wisdom were (kept) within you, and
the sons of the East, and the wise men of Sheba, came to write down your
(doctrines in) books.
Koren: You have the secret of good counsel and the secret of wisdom so that people from the Orient and the wise of Sheba come to copy your books.
I can tell you that every line of every Kinah has been translated three
different ways! The Italian saying "Traduttore traditore" comes to mind. If
you know Hebrew, you see that no translation quite captures the meaning,
the sound, the poetry, the emotion, the layers, the flow, the heart of the
original Hebrew. Luckily I don't know Hebrew all that well, or I would
probably be heart-broken.
Anyway, I really want to tell you what Rav Soloveitchik writes about
these lines.
<<So that people from the Orient and the wise of Sheba come to copy
your books.>> This phrase is reminiscent of the statement of Rabbi
Yehuda HaLevi (Kuzari 1:63; 11:66) that the Greeks, Babylonians
and Assyrians copied Jewish books of wisdom, and that all Greek
science, astronomy, mathematics and philosophy was copied from Jewish
sources. It is interesting that there is a source for the statement
by Plato (see Clement of Alexandria, /Stromata/ Book 1, chapter 1)
that he met Hebrew scholars and learned from them as much as he
could, although there are those who question the veracity of this
source. Along similar lines, Maimonides refers to the descendants of
the Tribe of Issachar having written many books on astronomy which
are no longer extant (/Mishneh Torah/ Hil. Kiddush HaHodesh 17:24).
This is interesting in view of the many discussions here and everywhere
about whether we have to believe every statement of Chazal regarding
natural phenomena, and whether Chazal took wisdom from the Greeks or the
Greeks learned wisdom from them, and also whether or not R' Soloveitchik
was a straight right-wing charedi, the way he is portrayed by his nephew,
R' Moshe Meiselman, in his famous book <<Contra Slifkin>> oops I meant
<<Torah, Chazal and Science>>
We find in this short passage a fine example of both R' Soloveitchik's
legendary erudition as well as his equally legendary finesse at eluding
easy capture. Does he agree with Yehuda HaLevi or does he merely find the
kinah <<reminiscent>> of HaLevi without indicating agreement? Hard to pin
down, so his students and followers can see what they want to see. For the
record, I don't believe he fit neatly in either the MO nor the RW camp.
--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
Go to top.
Message: 4
From: Micha Berger
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:26:18 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] When your Korban Pesach is a Tereifah
R' Shlomo Katz <shlomo.k...@gmail.com> (CCed-) asked on Facebook:
> What happens if you are cutting up your korban pesach and you discover
> it's treif?
I was taken by the question because
(1) it must have happaned all the time, and yet
(2) I haven't heard it discussed.
At this point I am curious about whe answer. But what intrigues me about
the question is the amazingness that it's not more asked. If we were
bringing qorbanos, the logistic possibility would have been more likely
to cross someone's mind.
(And that explains why I am in favor of having more Yoatzot. There are
questions a rav wouldn't be as likely to think of, simply because knowing
about a given bit of anatomy isn't like actually owning a set. There are
implications that are less likely to be thought of. My support contigent
on their actually serving as Yoatzot as per R Henkin's description here
some years ago, and not presented as synagogue clergy.)
:-)BBii!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Man is equipped with such far-reaching vision,
mi...@aishdas.org yet the smallest coin can obstruct his view.
http://www.aishdas.org - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507
Go to top.
Message: 5
From: Micha Berger
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:33:35 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] When your Korban Pesach is a Tereifah
On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 08:26:18AM -0400, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
: R' Shlomo Katz <shlomo.k...@gmail.com> (CCed-) asked on Facebook:
: > What happens if you are cutting up your korban pesach and you discover
: > it's treif?
Ah, someone answered there -- Rambam, Hilkhos Qorban Pesach 1:20.
Someone who slaughters his Paschal sacrifice and it is discovered
to be ba'am mum or it is treifah should shecht another. Whether on
chol or on Shabbos. He may continue and checht [even] 100 zeh achar
zeh until one is kosher or ad shetechshakh. [And if still no kosher
lamb by nightfall,] he is docheh to [Pesach] Sheini, because he was
an oneis.
:-)BBii!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger "Fortunate indeed, is the man who takes
mi...@aishdas.org exactly the right measure of himself, and
http://www.aishdas.org holds a just balance between what he can
Fax: (270) 514-1507 acquire and what he can use." - Peter Latham
Go to top.
Message: 6
From: menucha
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 16:01:27 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] When your Korban Pesach is a Tereifah
?.RMB wrote:
>
> (And that explains why I am in favor of having more Yoatzot. There are
> questions a rav wouldn't be as likely to think of, simply because knowing
> about a given bit of anatomy isn't like actually owning a set. There are
> implications that are less likely to be thought of.
Without getting into my personal feelings about yoatzot...
According to that logic, the ones who answer questions about a korban
should be lambs. As at the time of the Beit Hamikdash those who needed to
be were knowledgeable about the implications of the bodies of the
sacrificial animals, so too a man who is posek in halachot pertaining to
women?s bodies can be totally knowledgeable as to questions which can arise
and their implications. Saying otherwise is to be
motzi laaz on previous generations.
Shabbat shalom,
Menucha
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20180727/4357cefc/attachment-0001.html>
Go to top.
Message: 7
From: Zev Sero
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 10:13:06 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] When your Korban Pesach is a Tereifah
On 27/07/18 08:26, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> R' Shlomo Katz <shlomo.k...@gmail.com> (CCed-) asked on Facebook:
>> What happens if you are cutting up your korban pesach and you discover
>> it's treif?
>
> I was taken by the question because
> (1) it must have happaned all the time, and yet
> (2) I haven't heard it discussed.
Not discussed? It's explicitly stated right at the very end of Seder
Korban Pesach: "And if it is found to be terefa it does not count for
him until he brings another one." (I haven't got my siddur collection
handy to check whether Seder Korban Pesach is specific to "Nusach
Sfard", or is also said by Nuschaot Ashkenaz, and/or Sefarad, and/or
Italia.)
--
Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper
Go to top.
Message: 8
From: Professor L. Levine
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 12:52:50 +0000
Subject: [Avodah] Question on video Can I Drink Kosher Coffee from an
Rabbi Moshe Elefant says towards the end of the video
at https://goo.gl/yPrU
that if one found a fleishig utensil in a dairy dishwasher "It would be a catastrophe." I do not understand why this would be the case.
If one meat fork, knife or spoon would be washed with dairy utensils, I
would think that that meat fork or spoon or knife would be treif and would
need to be kashered. However, I find the implication that all of the
dairy utensils in the dairy dishwasher would be treif hard to understand.
Wouldn't bitul apply here, and the dairy utensils would be OK? And, if so,
is having to kasher one fork, spoon or knife really a catastrophe?
YL
<https://goo.gl/yPrU>
<https://goo.gl/yPrU>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20180727/4b62b2da/attachment-0001.html>
Go to top.
Message: 9
From: Professor L. Levine
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 16:27:16 +0000
Subject: [Avodah] Question on video Can I Drink Kosher Coffee from an
Rabbi Moshe Elefant says towards the end of the video
at https://www.kosher.com/shows/video/346/can-i-drink-kosher-coffee-from-an-uncertified-restaurant
<https://goo.gl/yPrU>
that if one found a fleishig utensil in a dairy dishwasher "It would be a catastrophe." I do not understand why this would be the case.
If one meat fork, knife or spoon would be washed with dairy utensils, I
would think that that meat fork or spoon or knife would be treif and would
need to be kashered. However, I find the implication that all of the
dairy utensils in the dairy dishwasher would be treif hard to understand.
Wouldn't bitul apply here, and the dairy utensils would be OK? And, if so,
is having to kasher one fork, spoon or knife really a catastrophe?
YL
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20180727/8ad778a3/attachment-0001.html>
Go to top.
Message: 10
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 16:21:59 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Can I Drink Kosher Coffee from an Uncertified
Please see the video at
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgoo.gl%2FyPrUuE&;amp;data=02%7C01%7Cllevine%40stevens.edu%7Cf72fc07038104aef49fe08d5f3f36f86%7C8d1a69ec03b54345ae21dad112f5fb4f%7C0%7C1%7C636683149239225810&sdata=A3hgKhdEZSGQVswpWfNVv2OJ4WCIvYw5nQ6sSJkW2ic%3D&reserved=0
YL
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20180727/209430a7/attachment-0001.html>
Go to top.
Message: 11
From: Ben Waxman
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 23:03:53 +0200
Subject: Re: [Avodah] When your Korban Pesach is a Tereifah
In the Neot Kedumim Hagada (I think that is where I saw this tidbit. It
was a long time ago when I read it), they said that there was t'nai beit
din on every Korban Pesach, that allowed anyone to eat from anyone's
korban. Therefore, if your korban was found to be pasul, you could join
in with someone else, even if you weren't formally included in his group.
Ben
On 7/27/2018 2:26 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
>> What happens if you are cutting up your korban pesach and you discover
>> it's treif?
> I was taken by the question because
> (1) it must have happaned all the time, and yet
> (2) I haven't heard it discussed.
>
> At this point I am curious about whe answer.
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
------------------------------
**************************************
Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
avodah@lists.aishdas.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah/avodahareivim-membership-agreement/
You can reach the person managing the list at
avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."
A list of common acronyms is available at
http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah/avodah-acronyms
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)