Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 42

Sun, 15 Apr 2018

• 1. Re: The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies (Rich, Joel)
• 2. Re: The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies (Akiva Miller)
• 3. The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies (Prof. Levine)
• 4. shevet/adoption (Rich, Joel)
• 5. Re: The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: shevet/adoption (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: shevet/adoption (allan.en...@gmail.com)
• 8. Re: The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies (hankman)
• 9. barchu (Rich, Joel)
• 10. Re: The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies (Prof. Levine) (Marty Bluke)
• 11. Re: barchu (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: R' Baruch Ber Leibovitch (Prof. Levine) (Marty Bluke)
• 13. Re: R' Baruch Ber Leibovitch (Prof. Levine) (Prof. Levine)

I can go on; my thesis is that there is not much basis to the argument that
a well-rounded education makes much of a difference in understanding Torah.
What would be much more efficient and effective would be a focused companion
sefer to Shas that gives the background on those sugyos that need some
secular knowledge in order to understand them. 
-----------------------------
Bingo-and probably true on a micro level but not, I fear, on a macro level.

I used to tell my boys that 80% (not based on a study but the handy 80/20)
rule)of what they learned would not be used later, the problem is you don't
know which 20% will be.
Look here for the background of the inventor of the m-16 and you'll see
what he brought together https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Stoner 
Kt
Joel rich
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.
R' Yitzchok Levine wrote, and I quote his closing last paragraph in full:

> Boys have to be equipped with an education that prepares them
> to earn a living to support a family. How many boys who attend
> a Hassidic yeshiva actually earn a basic high school diploma
> let alone a Regents diploma?

The first and second sentences don't have any logical connection that
I can see. There are plenty of boys who attended a Hassidic yeshiva,
who now earn enough to support a family.

Diplomas are not guarantees, and I'm don't know how much they help.
They certainly don't help as much as drive and persistence and elbow
grease.

My boss, for example, asks me for help occasionally with English
spelling and grammar, but that doesn't seem to have hampered his
ability to own his business at half my age. (His mathematics abilities
are a good example. He understands enough of the concepts that he can
figure out anything on his calculator without my help. But he avoids
doing even simple arithmetic in his head. And because he refuses to do
the arithmetic in his head, I make more mistakes than he does.)

Akiva Miller

At 06:10 AM 4/11/2018, Moshe Yehuda Gluck wrote:

>I can go on; my thesis is that there is not much basis to the argument that
>a well-rounded education makes much of a difference in understanding Torah.
>What would be much more efficient and effective would be a focused companion
>sefer to Shas that gives the background on those sugyos that need some
>secular knowledge in order to understand them.

Please read RSRH's  essay


<https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/relevance_secular_studies_jewish_education.pdf>The 
Relevance of Secular Studies to Jewish Education (Collected Writings VII)

YL
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Is anyone aware of any authorities that hold that an adopted child may be called up (or function) based on the shevet of the adopted father?
Kt
Joel rich

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I think there are two opposite issues that haven't yet been raised that
I want to add to the discussion.

1- The iqar of learning in 1st to 12th grades is learning skills and a mode
of thinking.

The same is true of much of secular education. A person learns more in
algegra class than the specific facts under discussion. A programmer learns
tools for viewing problems that can help (if used) in general life. Social
Studies teaches a way of viewing other peoples and other societies, etc...

This can't be short-cut with a book on the specific facts necessary to
learn Eiruvin, Chullin, or my example of the minimum size of a circular
sukkah. (Which, BTW, was R/Dr Leon Ehrenpreis's launching pad for teaching
calculus. See my "hesped" at
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/r-dr-eliezer-ehrenpreis-zl>.)

I am leaving the question unanswered as to whether this broad perspective
thing is something we should want to learn. (The regulars can guess my
answr anyway.) I just wanted to add this element to the conversation.


2- Posqim. Learning may not require knowing much about the world, but
applying that knowledge halakhah lemaaseh does.

A poseiq can only rely on experts once he knows enough to know when to
ask a question. When something that seems obvious may not be.

Picture a poseiq being asked about whether it is mutar to throw some
boy our of HS without knowing the world teenage boys are now living
in (subjected to?), what the norms are in yeshiva, out of yeshiva but
in our seviva, what temptations exist beyond the bubble...? Some psych,
some social work... Would the poseiq even know where to begin when
talking to an expert?

Would the expert end up being so relied upon that his choice of
presentation will pretty much determine the pesaq?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 11th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 4 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Netzach sheb'Gevurah: What is imposing about
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            strict justice?

On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 01:50:01PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: Is anyone aware of any authorities that hold that an adopted child may
: be called up (or function) based on the shevet of the adopted father?

All I have is the reverse. R' Gedalia Felder (Yesodei Yeshurun 2 pp
188-191) holds that an adopted child can be called up "ben Micha Shemuel",
but that this shouldn't be done when the adopting father or the son is a
kohein. In order to avoid confusion about the child's kehunah. (Or that of
a future descendent, when people vaguely remember his name years later).
I assume leviim too, but that's not in my notes.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

Tangentially, there is a convention to write the name of a chalal in
official documents as Ploni ben Ploni Vehu Kohein, to signify the
difference in status between father and son.

I'm not sure that this would be recommended (or desirable) in the case of
an adopted child.
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I suspect that some will feel that my position on the issue "secular"
studies comes from the left of center. First off, we need to delineate
what we mean by "secular" studies. This word as we use it today is far
different from the science the GRA or the many achronim, rishonim and of
course Chazal learned in the sense of math, astronomy and biology. Today
that word would also include many areas such as social studies,
psychology, philosophy, evolutionary biology, cosmology, comparative
religion, black studies, sexual awareness, cultural studies etc, etc,
that could lead a young untrained mind into problematic areas that could
raise many question they are not prepared to deal with.

The scientific study required by the various sugios in shas and halacha
really require a minimal study of some elementary math such as some trig
and geometry, some values such as that of Pi, square root of 2 etc and
Pythagoras theorem, astronomy (mainly lunar orbit, seasonal and diurnal
calculation), anatomy and some other limited areas of biology plus a
handful of other concepts. By this logic much of what we call science
today would be excluded from being necessary for learning Torah.

Mi'sevoras libi, I would say that the study of much of what we think
of in modern parlance of the many new fields of mathematics and the
physical sciences such as the many branches of modern physics both
classical and relativistic and quantum mechanics, the many branches
of chemistry, biology and medicine and of course modern astronomy
including much more than just solar system dynamics (mainly lunar &
seasonal) and positions of a handful of stars are mandated for a very
simple reason -- an understanding (the deeper the better) in these
fields makes one truly understand that the world is so highly complex
and functions so beautifully that this it can not be a random happening
and that there must be a borei olam. A havana into the very ultra small
as we find through quantum mechanics and particle physics, or into the
wonders of the atom and chemistry and how things combine, or into the
wonders of dynamics, optics, elec & magnetism, or the modern fields of
solar and stellar astronomy and spectrographic analysis and through the
beauty and understanding exposed through the many modern branches of
modern math including advanced algebraic theory, statistical analysis,
advanced calculus and vector and tensor analysis and the many other
fields to numerous to mention here that are so useful throughout all
of modern science.. These literally create emuna and awe of the borei
olam. The understanding of biology from its lowest levels of its physics
and chemistry to the molecular with the tremendous complexities at its
molecular and cellular levels and onto its study at the organic and
systemic levels, through developmental biology of the miraculous changes
from conception through the fetus to birth, infancy and childhood to
the adult and ultimately death. Many of these may not help much with
the simple peshat of any particular sugio in shas, but they surely
create emuna and tremendous yiras haromeimus. No one who has even the
smallest inkling of any of this knowledge could believe that existence
as we now can begin to perceive it is a bunch of random events. Just
the mind boggling complexity of the functioning of a single cell is awe
inspiring. With so many thousands of things happening in each cell with
perfect timing, with everything just in the right place at the right
time in each of the billions of cells in our bodies.

Worst of all, leaving a young mind unexposed to many of these areas
and without proper training in them leaves him vulnerable to the many
questions he will eventually encounter as he goes through modern life. He
will not be prepared to deal with evolution, cosmology, philpsophy etc
that he will surely encounter no matter how well shielded he may be.

In addition to the above, in our modern society some of the above may be
needed merely to functional and earn a living in todays highly technical
society and he will be severely limited in the types of parnasa available
to him.

I am sure that many will differ substantially from my position above.

Please excuse my rambling and repetition at times and run on sentences
in the above.

Kol tuv Chaim Manaster

According to the S"A 139:7, after the oleh "commands" the community to
bless HKB"H before reading the Torah, the congregation responds "baruch
hashem hamevorach l'olam vaed" and the oleh the repeats the phrase in order
to be included with the congregation of blessers. Why does he wait and not
utter the phrase with the congregation?
KT
Joel Rich

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R' Yitzchak Levine wrote:
"There is no way that a "Rabbinical committee (namely the
Rabbanim/Poskim/Rebbeim of the respective chassidishe Yeshivos whom Simcha
Felder is representing) decided that systematic secular education is
forbidden by Orthodox Jewish law.  The reason is that the Torah
requires one to study secular subjects.

I have posted part of an article by Dr. Yehudah Levi from his book
Torah Study.  "

Of course there is. Dr. Yehuda Levi is coming from a Torah Im Derech Eretz
point of view however, Chasidim and most Charedim have a different
viewpoint, namely Torah only.  You seem to be a classic case of someone
living in an echo chamber. The only opinion/derech that you recognize as
legitimate is Torah Im Derech Eretz. As I stated many times, Torah Im
Derech Eretz is a small minority, the overwhelming majority of gedolim
rejected it.  So much so that Gedolim like R' Baruch Ber could not believe
that R' Hirsch thought that it was lechatchila.

R' Baruch Ber Leibovitch wrote a teshuva (end of Bircas Shmuel Kiddushin)
where he explicitly forbid a secular curriculum:

?What emerges is (a) that according to the Torah the obligation of Banim
Ubeni Banim means you must make your children into Geonei and Chachmei
Torah ? and not merely to prepare them for life as a Jew. But rather, you
must teach them and get them to learn the entire Torah, and if chas
v?sholom you do not, you violate the entire Mitzvah of learning Torah as
per Banim Ubnei Banim.
...
(c) To learn secular studies on a regular basis is prohibited as per the
Rama 246:4 ?
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On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 05:20:51PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: According to the S"A 139:7, after the oleh "commands" the community to
: bless HKB"H before reading the Torah, the congregation responds "barchu
: hashem hamevorach l'olam vaed" and the oleh the repeats the phrase in
: order to be included with the congregation of blessers. Why does he wait
: and not utter the phrase with the congregation?

See the Agur, Hil' Berakhos 98, which can be found at
<http://www.beureihatefila.com/files/2008-04-04_Tefila_Newsletter.pdf#page=2>.
The Maharam miRothenburg held the sha"tz needn't say it at all.
R' Yehudah al-Barceloni says he should say.
The Agur adds: and we are noheig to say it.

The next source, the Avudraham (or to be accurate: Abu-Dirham), says
that the sha"tz says it to be among the community of mevorkhim. He
cites the Y-mi (Berakhos 7:3).

And he adds that R' Yehudah b"r Barzili Barceloni (I assume the same
source as the Seifer haAgur) writes in the name of R' Saadia that even
though the sha"tz said "haMvorakh", and therefore didn't remove himself
from the klal, he needs to return himself to the klal "legamrei" and day
"Barukh H' Hamvorkh". Like in bentching, where the leader says "nevareikh"
and yet repeats the responses of the rest of the zimun.

No answer there.

However, note that the assumption is that Borkhu doesn't need the sha"tz
or the oleh to repeat it. The sha"tz needs to repeat it for his own sake,
so as not to exclude himself from the kelal of mevorkhim. (Except according
to the MmR, who doesn't believe the sha"tz has such a need.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 12th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Gevurah: What aspect of judgment
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  forces the "judge" into submission?

R' Yitzchak Levine wrote:
"In conclusion,  I think that what Rabbi Leibowitz
wrote is irrelevant to today's world. I am
surprised that you even bothered to quote him."

And yet the overwhelming majority of the Charedi world agrees with his
teshuva.

There is no question that the simple reading of the Rama is like R' Baruch
Ber. The Rama writes:

"But it is not for a person to learn anything but Torah, Mishna and Gemara
and the halachic decisors that come after them and through this they will
acquire this world and the world to come. But not with learning any other
wisdoms. In any case, it is permitted to learn through happenstance all
other knowledge as long as it isn't a book of heresy.  This is what called
by the Rabbis a trip in the Pardes, A person should not take a trip in the
Pardes until he has filled his belly with meat and wine [Torah] and he
knows the lasw of issur v'heter and the laws relating to mitzvos"

The Rama clearly writes that secular studies cannot be learned on a regular
set basis. Not only that, but he writes that even happenstance secular
studies should only be done AFTER you know shas and poskim.
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At 04:31 AM 4/15/2018, Marty Bluke wrote:
>R' Yitzchak Levine wrote:
>"In conclusion,  I think that what Rabbi Leibowitz
>wrote is irrelevant to today's world. I am
>surprised that you even bothered to quote him."
>
>And yet the overwhelming majority of the Charedi world agrees with 
>his teshuva.

If so, then how do you account for the many Chareidim here in the US 
who attend Touro College,  enroll in TTI (See https://goo.gl/hnRCy6 
), attend the training programs the Agudah sponsors both here in 
Brooklyn  and in Lakewood, as well as many other options 
available.  Many seminaries today offer programs leading to college 
degrees both here and in Israel.

My understanding is that more and more Chareidim, both men and 
women,  in EY are pursuing higher secular education.


>There is no question that the simple reading of the Rama is like R' 
>Baruch Ber. The Rama writes:
>
>"But it is not for a person to learn anything but Torah, Mishna and 
>Gemara and the halachic decisors that come after them and through 
>this they will acquire this world and the world to come. But not 
>with learning any other wisdoms. In any case, it is permitted to 
>learn through happenstance all other knowledge as long as it isn't a 
>book of heresy.  This is what called by the Rabbis a trip in the 
>Pardes, A person should not take a trip in the Pardes until he has 
>filled his belly with meat and wine [Torah] and he knows the lasw of 
>issur v'heter and the laws relating to mitzvos"
>
>The Rama clearly writes that secular studies cannot be learned on a 
>regular set basis. Not only that, but he writes that even 
>happenstance secular studies should only be done AFTER you know shas 
>and poskim.

Yet the GRA studied mathematics in his youth.

 From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_Isserles

Not only was Isserles a renowned Talmudic and 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halakha>legal scholar, he was also 
learned in <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabbalah>Kabbalah, and 
studied <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History>history, 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronomy>astronomy and 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy>philosophy. He taught that 
"the aim of man is to search for the cause and the meaning of things" 
("Torath ha-Olah" III., vii.). He also held that "it is permissible 
to now and then study secular wisdom, provided that this excludes 
works of heresy... and that one [first] knows what is permissible and 
forbidden, and the <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halakha>rules and 
the <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitzva>mitzvot" 
(<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shulkhan_Aruch>Shulkhan Aruch, 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoreh_De%27ah>Yoreh De'ah, 246, 4). 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maharshal>Maharshal reproached him for 
having based some of his decisions on 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle>Aristotle. His reply was 
that he studied <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_philosophy>Greek 
philosophy only from 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides>Maimonides' 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guide_for_the_Perplexed>Guide for the 
Perplexed, and then only on 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat>Shabbat and 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_holidays>Yom Tov (holy days) - 
and furthermore, it is better to occupy oneself with philosophy than 
to err through <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabbalah>Kabbalah 
(<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsa>Responsa No. 7).

>And how many people are capable of capable of learning "anything but 
>Torah, Mishna and Gemara and the halachic decisors that come after 
>them."   as I pointed out earlier the Meddrah in Koheles as well as 
>the Mishna Brurah make it clear that only a very small percentage of 
>people are capable of studying Torah all day.

Also, have not times changed since the time of the RAMA?

The following is taken from Rav Schwab on Chumash, Parshas Acharei Mos.

         "At all times the Torah's unchanging teachings must be applied to the
ever-changing derech eretz. All of our actions, attitudes, relationships to
man and beast, and positions within nature and history are subject to the
jurisdiction and evaluation of the Torah.

         "What follows is that the Torah scholar should be well informed of the
'ways of the Earth.' The laws of nature and the paths of history should
be known to him. He should be well aware of what happens in the
world that surrounds him, for he is constantly called upon to apply the
yardstick of halachah and the searchlight of hashkafah to the realities
that confront him.

         "What also follows is that the greater the wisdom of Torah, the more
crucial it is that this wisdom be conveyed to the Jewish contemporary
world. It must be transmitted in a language that our generation
understands and that will attract the searching youth, the ignorant, the
estranged and the potential ba 1al teshuvah to a joyous acceptance of the
yoke of Heaven. The Torah leader must be able to dispel the doubts
of the doubter and to counter the cynicism of the agnostic. He must,
therefore, speak their language masterfully so that he can convince and
enlighten them.

         "There is indeed a dire need for gedolei Torah, great Torah scholars,
who devote their entire lives to the study and dissemination of Torah.
The Jewish world today needs many talmidei chachamim whose life
task is to enlighten and inspire it with the love and the fear of G-d. We
are ready to accord to those 'messengers of G-d' the highest respect and
a loyal following. These are the kohanim and levi'im of today. Like the
members of the Levitic tribe of old, they are to serve all the other tribes
and teach them the living Torah.

         "Yet education and leadership cannot function in a vacuum. Therefore
it becomes mandatory for the present day 'Tribe of Levi' to initiate and
encourage an educational system that can serve the other "eleven tribes
who comprise the vast majority of our people. It becomes mandatory
for the Torah-conscious educator not to inspire fear of the world and
hesitancy to meets its challenges, but rather, to fortify the vast majority of
our youth to meet head-on the thousand and one pitfalls of professional
and business life. Our youth must be inspired to courageously and
intelligently brave the onslaught of scientific arrogance and the sensual
poison that is masked as intellectual liberalism.

         "The Divine purpose for which Yisrael was created can be served in
every capacity, in every profession, in all human endeavors, as long as
they are not excluded by the halachah."

YL


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