Volume 36: Number 31
Mon, 26 Mar 2018
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Akiva Miller
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 15:51:23 +0000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] No more (Not eating) Gebrokts
R' Yitzchok Levine asked:
<<< Why doesn't the hataras Nedarim we make before Rosh Hashana work for
this? >>>
Good question. Maybe it works, maybe not. I have heard that it can be
relied on for relatively minor stuff, but your suggestion would do away
with an individual case-by-case Matir Neder entirely. Anyway, all I said
was that he should ask.
Akiva Miller
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20180326/5a275e2e/attachment-0001.html>
Go to top.
Message: 2
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 18:38:28 +0000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] No more (Not eating) Gebrokts
<<< Why doesn't the hataras Nedarim we make before Rosh Hashana work for this? >>>
Good question. Maybe it works, maybe not. I have heard that it can be
relied on for relatively minor stuff, but your suggestion would do away
with an individual case-by-case Matir Neder entirely. Anyway, all I said
was that he should ask.
-------------------------
I?m pretty sure R?YBS included specifics on R?H matir if he had something as an issue (e.g. standing for prayer)
KT
Joel Rich
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE
ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination,
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is
strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.
Thank you.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20180326/c866abb4/attachment-0001.html>
Go to top.
Message: 3
From: Ben Waxman
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 22:11:07 +0200
Subject: Re: [Avodah] No more (Not eating) Gebrokts
AFAIK that teqes doesn't help for family-made inherited minhagim. If it
did then we all could decide if we want to continue saying Kabbalat
Shabbat every year.? Or - we could all dump the minhag of not eating
kitniyot.
OTOH if the person who refrained from eating gebrokts does believe that
it is a din, he doesn't need a heter.
But in any case, consultation with a rav who is competent in these
matters is a good idea.
On 3/26/2018 5:51 PM, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
>
> Good question. Maybe it works, maybe not. I have heard that it can be
> relied on for relatively minor stuff, but your suggestion would do
> away with an individual case-by-case Matir Neder entirely. Anyway, all
> I said was that he should ask.
>
> Akiva Miller
Go to top.
Message: 4
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 15:17:49 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] No more (Not eating) Gebrokts
On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 11:19:56AM -0400, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
:> (Please note my use of the word "practice". I am not paskening on
:> whether or not this counts as a minhag. That's the posek's job.)
: Why doesn't the hataras Nedarim we make before Rosh Hashana work for this?
If this worked, there would be no concept of minhag at all!
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
Go to top.
Message: 5
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 19:35:41 +0000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] No more (Not eating) Gebrokts
AFAIK that teqes doesn't help for family-made inherited minhagim. If it
did then we all could decide if we want to continue saying Kabbalat
Shabbat every year.? Or - we could all dump the minhag of not eating
kitniyot.
---------------------
You may want to listen to r' j ziring's latest shiurim on minhag-the source and force of family minhagim isn't really clear
Kt
Joel rich
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE
ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination,
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is
strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.
Thank you.
Go to top.
Message: 6
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 15:38:34 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] No more (Not eating) Gebrokts
At 03:17 PM 3/26/2018, Micha Berger wrote:
>On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 11:19:56AM -0400, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
>:> (Please note my use of the word "practice". I am not paskening on
>:> whether or not this counts as a minhag. That's the posek's job.)
>
>: Why doesn't the hataras Nedarim we make before Rosh Hashana work for this?
>
>If this worked, there would be no concept of minhag at all!
There would still be minhag, but one could decide not to follow
some of the minhagim of one's parents, which, of course, one can do anyway.
If your father stood for kiddush and you decide based on Tosafos that
you want to sit, do you have to be mater Nedar for this? I think not.
The advent of Chassidus led to changing many minhagim, such as
davening Nusach Ashkenaz. Do you think that people were mater Nedar
at the time? I think not. I think they just began to follow the
changes that Chassidism introduced.
YL
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20180326/aeb3dfa2/attachment-0001.html>
Go to top.
Message: 7
From: Professor L. Levine
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 20:17:35 +0000
Subject: [Avodah] Being Matir Neder
From Today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis
Q. If one is ill on Pesach and will be unable to keep all the stringencies
that they are accustomed to, such as consuming large portions of Matzah,
Marror and the four cups of wine, and instead will need to rely on the
smallest measurement, must they go through the process of being matir neder
(annulment of vows)?
A. Shulchan Aruch (YD 214:1) writes that one who accepted on themselves a
stringency (such as fasting between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur) and
followed through even one time, with the expectation that they would
continue this practice every year, it is considered as though he made a
vow. This is so, even though he did not make any verbal commitment. [Poskim
also consider it a vow if one practiced the stringency three times, even if
he did not have intent to continue the practice every year, (see Kitzur
Shulchan Aruch 67:7).] If one later finds themselves unable to continue
this stringency, he must go before three men and annul the vow. The Dagul
Merivava (YD 214) differentiates between one who is in need of a temporary
dispensation and one who will be permanently unable to continue this
practice. In the case of a temporary illness, the Dagul Merivava writes
that there is no need to be matir neder. However, if one's medical
condition is such that from now on they will be unab
le to ma
intain their former stringencies then they must be matir neder. However,
the Shach (214:2) does not make this distinction. Rav Shlomo Zalman
Auerbach, zt"l recommends that in all cases one should be matir neder.
However, if one was not matir neder, even if they have a chronic
condition, they may rely on the Mesiras Moda'ah (public pronouncement)
that one makes on erev Rosh Hashanah stating that one does not want
stringencies to count as vows (see Minchas Shlomo I:91:20). Additionally,
Igros Moshe (YD I:127:9) writes that it is logical to assume that a
positive action which is only a hidur mitzvah (an extra beautification of
a mitzvah), that is beyond the letter of the law, does not have the status
of a neder, and hataras nedarim would not be required.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YL
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20180326/60b41b77/attachment-0001.html>
Go to top.
Message: 8
From: Ben Waxman
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 22:58:31 +0200
Subject: Re: [Avodah] No more (Not eating) Gebrokts
Then the word minhag would me "a practice which I can dump every year if
I so chose". The idea that "a snake would bite you" if you change a
minhag becomes ridiculous.
Ben
On 3/26/2018 9:38 PM, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> There would still be minhag,? but one could? decide not to follow some
> of the minhagim of one's parents,? which, of course, one can do anyway.
Go to top.
Message: 9
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 16:43:50 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] No more (Not eating) Gebrokts
On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 03:38:34PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
:> If this worked, there would be no concept of minhag at all!
:
: There would still be minhag, but one could decide not to follow
: some of the minhagim of one's parents, which, of course, one can do
: anyway.
On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 07:35:41PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: You may want to listen to r' j ziring's latest shiurim on minhag-the
: source and force of family minhagim isn't really clear
RHZ often discusses "how halkhah works" type questions. I highly recommend
his YUTorah page for anyone who enjoys that type of Avodah thread.
As for minhag avos, we've discussed this in the past.
We'll ignore Yom Tov sheini shel goliyos, since that's a derabbanan
established to preserve what was normal practice by necessity. The use
of the idiom "minhag avoseikhem beyadeikhem" aside, it's not a minhag.
But in Maqom sheNahagu (Pesachim 50b), we have the case of the people
of Baishan (Beit She'an?) are apparently being told by R' Yochanan to
follow minhag because the parents did it. Invoking "shema beni musar
avikha...." In past iterations I argued from that sugya and the parallel
Y-mi that what we call "minhag avos" is about the binding nature of our
ancestor's minhag hamaqom.
Admittedly, the cases in the gemaros are wholesale -- a community that
moved is told preserve the community's minhag avos. So my theory isn't
muchrach. But if the principle were understood to apply to invidivudals
too, it would solve the mystry of minhag avos.
And yes, most of the times I cited this idea was in response to attacks
on gebrochts. Runner up: qitniyos.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger It's nice to be smart,
mi...@aishdas.org but it's smarter to be nice.
http://www.aishdas.org - R' Lazer Brody
Fax: (270) 514-1507
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
------------------------------
**************************************
Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
avodah@lists.aishdas.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah/avodahareivim-membership-agreement/
You can reach the person managing the list at
avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."
A list of common acronyms is available at
http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah/avodah-acronyms
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)