Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 28

Mon, 19 Mar 2018

• 1. Re: taamei halacha? (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: deprive the minyan of the opportunity to say tachanun (Rich, Joel)
• 3. Re: taamei halacha? (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: taamei halacha? (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: The Besht (WITZCHOK LEVINE)
• 6. Re: Underlying Truth of the Realm Holiness in Israel (Akiva Miller)
• 7. Re: deprive the minyan of the opportunity to say tachanun (Akiva Miller)
• 8. Re: The Besht (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Underlying Truth of the Realm Holiness in Israel (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: The Besht (Ben Waxman)
• 11. Re: Underlying Truth of the Realm Holiness in Israel (Ben Waxman)
• 12. Tzav ? In Gratitude for the Miracle of Nature (Cantor Wolberg)
• 13. When should I prepare the salt water for the Seder? (Professor L. Levine)
• 14. If one forgot to prepare Charoses before Shabbos, how should it be prepared on Shabbos? (Professor L. Levine)

On Fri, Mar 09, 2018 at 05:04:00PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: In Sh'ut Ha Rambam (313) he allows only additional hadassim to be used
: (but) no additional lulavim, aravot or etrogim). He allows it because it
: was "katuv biyur chochamim."...

Well, lulav and esrog are written belashon yachid. The question is why
"arvei nachal" is darshened that a 2 word description implies *exactly*
two aravos, whereas "anaf eitz eivos" is darshened -- 3 words imply *at
least* 3 hadasim.

If you look at tetradrachm coins restamped by Bar Kokhva's followers,
you will find the reverse has one esrog, one lulav, one hadas, one
arava. I have mentioned this before -- this is shitas R' Aqiva. And
so finding it on BK coinage captures my fancy.

But if you look at ones stamped during the First Rebellion (the
sunset years of Bayis Sheini), or found in Egypt made during the Kytos
Wars (between the two), we find a lulav surrounded by a whole bunch
of berry-bearing branches. Eg
http://cja.huji.ac.il/browser.php?mode=set&;id=28002 or
http://cja.huji.ac.il/browser.php?mode=set&;id=29709
Presumably, the numerous hadasim.

But two esrogim? And the beries are still on the hadasim??? Maybe a
sectarian coinage; the Tzeduqim held the political power in those
days, no? In which case, can't be used to prove anything halachic.


: And if tradition had been to allow additional aravot and not hadassim he
: would've come up with a logic, too. Interesting-when do we project a logic
: and when do we say we just don't understand and thus don't extrapolate?

I don't think this is evidence of projecting a logic onto an
existing pesaq in order to derive halakhos for new cases. Which is
what extrapolation means to me. I see standing by existing pesaq,
and giving a post-facto rationalization for something that felt like
it needs one. Like lomdus.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The thought of happiness that comes from outside
mi...@aishdas.org        the person, brings him sadness. But realizing
http://www.aishdas.org   the value of one's will and the freedom brought
Fax: (270) 514-1507      by uplifting its, brings great joy. - R' Kook

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The thought of happiness that comes from outside
mi...@aishdas.org        the person, brings him sadness. But realizing
http://www.aishdas.org   the value of one's will and the freedom brought
Fax: (270) 514-1507      by uplifting its, brings great joy. - R' Kook

 few months ago I was in the main shul in a yishuv. The shul was quite 
large. There was a psak there by the shul rav stating in a small 
community shul, where everyone knows everyone, it makes complete sense 
that if there is a chatan, then one doesn't say tachanun. However, in 
this shul, in which strangers pray there every day and even not all the 
members know everyone, the presence of a chatan doesn't really add to 
their simcha. That being the case, visitors to the shul should say 
tachanun, even if the congregation doesn't.
=================================
interesting-I'd love to know the source-seems unusual to split the minyan (I can think of only one example- a sandek at mincha after morning brit)
KT
Joel Rich
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On 15/03/18 13:32, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> If you look at tetradrachm coins restamped by Bar Kokhva's followers,
> you will find the reverse has one esrog, one lulav, one hadas, one
> arava. I have mentioned this before -- this is shitas R' Aqiva. And
> so finding it on BK coinage captures my fancy.

And as I've replied before, to your eyes it looks like one of each, with 
a basket holder. To my eyes it looks like two aravos surrounded by a 
large number of hadassim, tied together with two thin bindings.

-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 03:52:45PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
: And as I've replied before, to your eyes it looks like one of each,
: with a basket holder. To my eyes it looks like two aravos surrounded
: by a large number of hadassim, tied together with two thin bindings.

... and as /I've/ replied before, that description isn't mine, it's
how I saw the coins after being prejudiced about what to expect,
including by people who have handled the coins themselves.

Eg, the Temple Mount Sifting Project (after I posted previous times):
    http://tmsifting.org/en/2016/10/13/symbols-of-sukkot-feast-of-tabernacles

Other exampoles:
https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%91%D7%A2%D7%AA_%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%9D#/media/File:Coin22.jpg
http://shalem.ac.il/content-channel/bar-kochba-and-zionism/
http://www.hatanakh.com/en/node/29282

IOW, not my chiddush.

RAZZ at https://jewishaction.com/religion/jewish-law/whats-truth-arba-minim
fn 2 seems to agree with you.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Nearly all men can stand adversity,
mi...@aishdas.org        but if you want to test a man's character,
http://www.aishdas.org   give him power.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                      -Abraham Lincoln

On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 12:49 PM, Micha Berger wrote:

>
> I used to think that "chanokh lenaar al pi darko" referred to students
> having different learning styles. However, ont of the chevrah pointed
> out that that doesn't fit the seifa of the pasuq (Mishlei 22:6):
> "... qam ki yazqin, lo yasur mimenahh" (mapiq hei). So, this "derekh"
> is something we don't want this person to leave even when they get 
> old.
>
> Which is something other than the personal way they need to be 
> established
> (/ch-n-kh/) to begin with. Important point, but not our pasuq's.
>
> It seems the pasuq is saying that your child should be taught on 
> approach
> to Torah that works for them, EVEN IF IT IS NOT YOURS. Our goal in 
> chinukh
> should be to produce ovedei Hashem, regardless of which O submovement
> they will end up gravitating toward.
>
?Please see RSRH's essay?Chanoch L'na'ar Al Pi Darko  (Collected 
Writings VII) 
at?https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/chanoch_l_naar_al_pi_darco.pdf?


YL

.

R' Micha Berger wrote:

> Addressing the first clause, the Meshekh Chokhmah repeatedly
> explains that qedushah of an item or location is never inherent;
> it is always the consequence of a person embuing it.
>
> Qedushah is only inherent to Hashem. People can make things
> qadosh when they dedicate them to avodas Hashem.
...
> As I wrote here in 2009
> <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol26/v26n191.shtml#07>
> According to the Meshech Chokhmah, all qedushah derives from
> human activity. There is no such thing as an inherently holy
> place or object.

I can think of a couple of challenges to this idea. The most obvious
one would be Shabbos.

I'll agree that nothing is inherently qadosh. Things need to *become*
qadosh. But the example of Shabbos suggests that this can be done by
Hashem, not only humans.

Akiva Miller

.

R' Joel Rich wrote:

> He was asked whether one who has the choice of going to two
> minyanim can choose to go to the one where a chatan is davening
> in order to skip tachanun. His response is if he is going for
> that reason it?s not appropriate (he?s running from a mitzvah),
> but if he?s going to be part of the simcha or for the midat
> harachamim (the attribute of mercy) it?s permitted [back to my
> favorite question ? OK, but what does HKB"H want of me?]

Here's my answer to that last question: HKB"H wants us to be honest.

What is right for one person is wrong for another, or even for that
same person at a different time or under different circumstances. If
he genuinely feels the simcha, then he should not be saying tachanun,
but if he is fooling himself into a mistaken belief that he feels the
simcha, then he *should* be saying tachanun.

R' Ben Waxman wrote:

> A few months ago I was in the main shul in a yishuv. The shul
> was quite large. There was a psak there by the shul rav stating
> in a small community shul, where everyone knows everyone, it
> makes complete sense that if there is a chatan, then one doesn't
> say tachanun. However, in this shul, in which strangers pray
> there every day and even not all the members know everyone, the
> presence of a chatan doesn't really add to their simcha. That
> being the case, visitors to the shul should say tachanun, even
> if the congregation doesn't.

I am truly happy to hear of a rav that has so much seichel. It upsets
me time after time, when I am at a minyan in my own community, and we
skip tachanun, and I have to ask several people until I find one who
knows which simcha had occurred. I think it would be wonderful to
establish a practice of someone getting up after Chazaras Hashatz, and
announcing that, "In celebration of XYZ, we are skipping tachanun,"
and THEN go to kaddish.

Akiva Miller

More on respecting others' minhagim. RGStudent posted the following
on FB last night
https://www.facebook.com/gil.student/posts/10156405636438738

    A Sephardic Jew mocked Chad Gadya, which Ashkenazim recite at the
    Passover Seder. A fellow Sephardic Jew considered this sacrilegious
    and placed him in excommunication (niduy). The great Sephardic sage
    the Chida, Rav Chaim Yosef David Azulay (d. 1806), was asked whether
    this excommunication was appropriate. He responded (Chaim Sha'al 1:28)
    that yes, it is sacrilegious to mock a text that thousands of Jews
    (even Ashkenazim) -- among them holy scholars -- recite.

The cited Chida is at http://bit.ly/2pgO4xq , which is on a Facebook
owned fbcdn.net server.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy'
mi...@aishdas.org         'Joy is nothing but Torah.'
http://www.aishdas.org    'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l

On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 10:16:10PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: R' Micha Berger wrote:
: > Addressing the first clause, the Meshekh Chokhmah repeatedly
: > explains that qedushah of an item or location is never inherent;
: > it is always the consequence of a person embuing it.
...
: I can think of a couple of challenges to this idea. The most obvious
: one would be Shabbos.

Or, that his logic has to do with items and locations, not time.

Har Sinai was qadosh during the time of ma'amad Har Sinai, because
of being in the midst of hosting the event itself. RMShKmD's point is
that it didn't as an object/location become qadosh to retain that
qedushah afterward.

Shabbos also hosts an event, or at least is an opportunity to do
so.

What I would like to see is how the Or Samayeiach, the author's halachic
work, deals with discussion of Yom Kipput and itzumo shel yom mechaperes.
There the "or at least is an opportunity to do so" is open to question.
Pashut peshat is that the day itself had power. (Unlike what he says
even the miqdash.)

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Friendship is like stone. A stone has no value,
mi...@aishdas.org        but by rubbing one stone against another,
http://www.aishdas.org   sparks of fire emerge. 
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  - Rav Mordechai of Lechovitz

Your saying it or not saying it is irrelevant to the Chida's psak, which 
frankly you seem to be ignoring.

Ben
On 3/16/2018 6:20 PM, WITZCHOK LEVINE wrote:
> I have news for you.? Not all Ashkenazim say Chad Gadya.? If I am 
> tired and it is getting late, I do not say it.? Of course I start 
> davening at 7:15 on the first days of Pesach. I feel it is more 
> important to get up early for davening than to keep the Seder going 
> too long after Chatzos.
>
>
> ?I guess those who daven at 9 can stay up and say it! 

The fruit of an apple tree that grows in a field in Eretz Yisrael during 
Shmittah has kedushah. Halacha puts numerous restrictions on what you 
can do with those apples. It matters not if anyone actually did anything 
to help the tree grow.

Ben

On 3/16/2018 4:16 AM, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> I'll agree that nothing is inherently qadosh. Things need to*become*
> qadosh. But the example of Shabbos suggests that this can be done by
> Hashem, not only humans.

1) Ex.6:6 "Aish tamid tukad al haMizbeach lo tichbeh"- "a permanent flame
shall remain on the altar; It shall not be extinguished."  Rambam indicates
that this is a positive commandment for a fire to be continuously burning
on the altar, including Shabbat. Even though fire would descend from the
heavens to consume the sacrifices, we are commanded to bring our own
'hedyot', common flame. 

The Sefer HaChinuch writes that the miracles Hashem does are always covered
with a certain degree of 'teva', natural normality. The gematria of God's
name "Elohim" is 86. "Hateva" which means nature also equals 86.  Rambam
writes that meditating on the wonders of nature is one way we get to know
God. This is a kabbalistic and mystical avenue through approaching God in a
natural way. Even while splitting the Sea to allow the Children of Israel
to escape the Egyptians, there was a strong eastern wind blowing (the
natural component). So, too, in regard to the altar, we are commanded to
ignite our own flame in order to camouflage the incredible miracle of the
fire descending from the heavens, thus allowing nature to be included in
the awesome event. Different people experiencing the same occurrence will
walk away with different understandings of what has transpired. 

There is a beautiful illustration of this idea. Imagine a child born in the
Midbar during the forty year travel to Eretz Yisrael. From the earliest
days that he or she can remember, food, in the form of manna, is dropped
from the heavens. To this person, that is not the least bit miraculous. It
is as natural as natural can be. Fast forward, they enter Eretz Yisrael and
the manna stopped falling. Joshua takes some seeds and places them into the
earth ? a seeming waste of the scant food they still had. If one were to
look into the ground and see the seeds they would appear to be
disintegrating and, at that point, appear totally useless. A few days
later, when food begins to grow from the ground, this person, with wide
eyed amazement, would scream IT'S A MIRACLE!!! Food from the ground ? how
unnatural! Clearly the wondrous Hand of Hashem is at work! 

Were we to see food falling from the heavens today, we would proclaim a
clear miracle! We are accustomed to food growing from the earth. Is there
really a difference between food coming from the ground or from the sky?
The only difference is what we are used to. My definition of "old age" is
having lost the ability to be amazed. As "beauty is in the eye of the
beholder" so are "miracles." 

2) Among the sacrifices mentioned in this weeks parsha is the Thanksgiving
Offering. The Medrash tells us that in the future all the sacrifices will
be nullified, except the Thanksgiving Offering ? for there is always need
to give thanks. 

There is a beautiful insight in the Avudraham on laws and commentary on
prayers.  When the shatz says Modim, the congregation recites "The Rabbis'
Modim". Why is that? The Avudraham says that for all blessings in the
Sh'moneh Esrei we can have an agent. For 'Heal Us', for 'Bless Us with a
Good Year', and so forth we can have a messenger ? the Shliach Tzibbur can
say the blessing for us. However, there is one thing that no else one can
say for us. We must say it for ourselves. That one thing is "Thank You".
Hoda'ah has to come from ourselves. No one can be our agent to say 'Thank
You.? 

With this in mind, I wish to thank Micha Berger for all he does. It is also
human nature to take many things for granted. It isn?t easy to do what he
does and I don?t envy him. But I do admire what he does with humility.
Kol hakavod! May he continue for many, many years to come.

"A life without sacrifice or thankfulness is a life purely selfish.?           
rw
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From the OU Kosher Halacha Yomis


Q. When should I prepare the salt water for the Seder?



A. The salt water should be prepared before Shabbos. This is because
Shulchan Aruch (OC 321:2) rules that one may not prepare a large amount of
salt water on Shabbos, since this was done in the process of tanning hides.
The Mishnah Berurah (321:11) defines a large amount as more than one needs
for Shabbos. Since it is difficult to figure out exactly how much salt
water one needs, the salt water should be prepared before Shabbos. If one
forgot to prepare salt water before Shabbos, the Shulchan Aruch Harav
(473:19) rules that one should make only a very small amount of salt water,
which will only be enough for the dipping of the Karpas. For those who also
have the custom to dip an egg in salt water, they may make enough to be
used for the Karpas and the egg.


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From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis


Q. If one forgot to prepare Charoses before Shabbos, how should it be prepared on Shabbos?



A. Preparing Charoses on Shabbos can involve two different Melachos, Tochein (grinding) and Losh (kneading), and each will need to be addressed.

Tochein: It is assur (prohibited) to grind fruits or vegetables on Shabbos,
and therefore one may not, for example, grate apples. In order to permit
cutting up apples, the following modifications must be made (Mishnah
Berurah 321:45):

  *   The apples may only be cut with a knife, not with a grater.
  *   The apples must be cut into larger pieces than one would have cut them had he been making charoses during the week.
  *   They may only be cut right before the meal.
  *   One may only cut as much as one will need for that meal.

Losh: Similarly, modifications are necessary when combining the ingredients (e.g. wine, apples and nuts).

  *   The ingredients must be added in reverse order of how they would
  normally be added: Normally the wine is added last, but on Shabbos the
  wine must be added first.
  *   The Charoses must be made watery and may not be made thick.
  *   One may not stir the ingredients together in the normal manner.
  Instead, one may mix the ingredients together using crisscross motions,
  removing the spoon after each stroke. Alternatively, one can mix the
  ingredients with a knife, since this is not the normal method of mixing.


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