Volume 35: Number 127
Fri, 03 Nov 2017
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Ben Waxman
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 21:58:56 +0200
Subject: Re: [Avodah] offering a higher salary
You think that these people would be willing to apply the word "poor" to
themselves, even in regards to only this halacha?
On 10/30/2017 12:39 PM, Lisa Liel wrote:
> Poor in halakha means not having what you're accustomed to have.? It
> isn't an objective benchmark or a comparison to other people.
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Message: 2
From: Ben Bradley
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 21:41:44 +0000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] offering a higher salary
Poor in halakha means not having what you're accustomed to have. It
isn't an objective benchmark or a comparison to other people.
Lisa
I don't believe it's as clear cut as that. It's true with regard to giving
tzedaka, that the kehilla is required to maintain someone at the standard
they were used to. But when it comes to the definition of an oni who's
entitled to take from communal funds, the mishna in terumos or maasros
defines it as someone who has a specific and objective amount of food or
money in their possession. AFAIR halacha l'maaseh follows suit, and there
are objective criteria before allowing someone to accept communal tzedaka
funds.
Regards
Ben
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Message: 3
From: hankman
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 15:03:44 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Long Lifespans in Bereishis
R. Marty Bluke wrote:
?The gemara (Sanhedrin 99) offers the following suggestions for how long the
Messianic period will last:
...
R' Dosa - 400 years
Rebbi - 365 years
Avimi - 7000 years
R' Yehuda - the amount of time from creation until the Messiah comes
R' Nachman Bar Yitzchak - the amount of time from the flood until the
Messiah comes
....?
Actually my original kasheh occurred to me during that recent daf yomi you
refer to in Sanhedrin which was when I asked the same question you pose
here. The question I posted on Avodah (basically the same idea) was just in
reference to a previous post here and its remarks ? I just did not feel the
need to broaden the kasheh ? perhaps I should have, just to be more
comprehensive.
Kol tuv
Chaim Manaster
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Message: 4
From: Saul Guberman
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 12:57:00 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] chopsticks
Is it permissible to break apart chopsticks on shabbat at the meal to eat
your sushi? Someone claimed it is makeh b'patish and just use a fork or
stab with the chopsticks still together. Others thought that tzorech ochel
nefesh might allow them to be broken and used , as it is all disposable
anyway.
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Message: 5
From: Rabbi Meir G. Rabi
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2017 08:03:34 +1100
Subject: [Avodah] VAYERA ? WHO IS HKBH TALKING TO?
Sara laughs [18:12] Gd is not happy
[18:13] HKBH confronts Avraham, ?Why did Sara laugh off the blessing that
she have a child? Am I not able to arrange she give birth? I assure you,
I?ll be back and you?ll see she will have a child.?
But why is HKBH asking this of Avraham? Does HKBH expect Avraham to be
able to explain?
It seems this question is really an indictment of sorts.
Is Avraham being blamed for Sara?s weakness?
Why does Avraham confront [18:19] Sara? He does not doubt what HKBH has
told him?
And when Sara denies it, why does Avraham rebuke her? Is it Avraham?s
responsibility to ensure she confesses?
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Message: 6
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2017 12:12:05 +0000
Subject: [Avodah] TEXTUAL JUDAISM AND THE LIVING TORAH
An old Avodah favorite :)
KT
Joel Rich
http://etzion.org.il/en/siman-114-prayers-wind-rain-and-dew
TEXTUAL JUDAISM AND THE LIVING TORAH
In his introduction to the Beit Yosef, R. Yosef Karo clearly
asserts that since it is impossible for someone of his stature
to set himself up as arbiter among the great Rishonim, for his
rulings will be based on the majority of the opinions of the
Rif, the Rambam, and the Rosh. Yet, here we have a case where
the Rambam and the Rosh agree that an entire country which
needs rain can mention and ask for rain in the summer, while
the Rif does not dispute this ruling since he does not relate
to this case. Although the Rambam's ruling is in the
commentary to the Mishna, this has the same status as the
Mishneh Torah - so I understand from Kesef Mishneh, also
written by R. Yosef Karo, to Hilkhot Talmud Torah 3:10 at the
end - and in addition, the Beit Yosef on our siman claims that
the Mishneh Torah also rules like the commentary to the Mishna.
How can the Beit Yosef rule against them?!
The Beit Yosef emphasizes that the custom of the entire world
contradicts the Rosh's ruling. He also suggests that this
ruling was never accepted in practice. How can we weigh these
factors against the authority of the written sources?
There is a general difference in approach among poskim
regarding how to weigh local custom against textual authority.
The Tosafot in many places endeavor to reconcile the text with
the custom (see for excample, Shabbat 48a<https://w
ww.sefaria.org/Shabbat.48a?lang=he-en> d.h. De-zeitim);
other sages more readily condemn custom on the authority of the
plain sense of the text.
It seems that several factors bear on the relative importance:
1. How universal is the custom? Responsa frequently point out that the
reaction to a seldom-encountered situation can not be considered a "custom"
- merely a precedent.
2. Among whom is the custom widespread? If we are certain that even
scholars and meticulous people conducted themselves in a certain way, this
has more weight than the behavior of the common people, pious though they
may be.
3. Are opinions opposing the custom recognized? Sometimes we find
statements to the effect that if a community had been aware that a great
authority opposed their custom, they would not have adopted it.
Conversely, a custom may be defended by pointing out that it was upheld
even though opposing views were clearly known.
4. Perhaps in an area of halakha whose basis is in custom, though it
subsequently achieved the status of binding halakha, we should give greater
weight to custom.
In our case, the Beit Yosef perceived that the custom of going
according to Eretz Yisrael was universal, even among scholars,
and even among people who were certainly aware of the
statements of the Rambam and the Rosh. In addition, he may
have considered the "customary" aspect of prayer to have
special importance - the fact that we pray as a community
renders special importance to community customs. Therefore,
even though the Beit Yosef is, according to his own assertion,
an extreme "textualist," in this case he was persuaded to rule
in accordance with custom.
Almost all Acharonim are extremely reluctant to dispute
Rishonim - though there are notable exceptions, such as the
Maharshal (who lived, in any case, close to the era of the
Rishonim). However, many later scholars do feel that however
unworthy they may be, it is their responsibility as decisors to
decide AMONG the Rishonim. The Beit Yosef's reticence in this
regard is far from universal.
A lot of noise is still being made regarding an article written
a couple of years ago by a leading scholar of Judaism (who is
also a Talmid Chakham, though the two do not always go
together) who posits that only recently have texts taken such a
central role in Jewish life. He claims that before World War
II custom was king, and accepted customs of respectable
communities were not scrutinized in the light of codes. I can
not comment on the historical reality of three generations ago,
but I think we should keep in mind that the tension between
custom and written authority is an ancient one, and the
"advocacy" of texts is hardly a new idea.
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Message: 7
From: Zev Sero
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2017 23:38:21 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] TEXTUAL JUDAISM AND THE LIVING TORAH
On 02/11/17 08:12, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> The Beit Yosef emphasizes that the custom of the entire world
> contradicts the Rosh's ruling.
Not the entire world. The Rosh himself reported that he was gratified
to discover, while travelling through Provence on his way from Germany
to Spain, that they did it the right way. This reinforced him in his
determination to try to change the practice in Spain.
> In our case, the Beit Yosef perceived that the custom of going
> according to Eretz Yisrael was universal,
On the contrary, *nobody* goes according to EY. The universal custom is
to go according to Iraq. The Rosh wanted all Mediterranean Jews, who
share EY's climate, to follow EY, as the Provencals did, but they refused.
--
Zev Sero May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name be a brilliant year for us all
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Message: 8
From: Rabbi Meir G. Rabi
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 16:38:08 +1100
Subject: [Avodah] Avraham A Cooked, Angels Ate - Bassar BeChalav
Avraham Avinu entertained three angels masquerading as human visitors;
feeding them goat flesh cooked with milk. Generations later, due to this
meal, the angels? protest, that the Torah ought not be given to the Jews,
was quashed.
There are 3 issues that require clarification:
++ Let?s say the angels sinned by eating flesh cooked with milk [which
seems to be the plain meaning of the Medrash] how does that silence their
protest?
++ Furthermore, flesh cooked with milk would not have been served to the
guests:
++ Avraham Avinu did not cook goat with milk since he adhered to all
Mitzvos of the Torah.
++ Even if it was cooked inadvertently, he would not have offered it to the
visitors since no benefit may be derived from it.
Reb Meir Simcha of Dvinsk explains in Meshech Chochmah, that no sin was
transgressed since it was BP flesh, which may be cooked with milk.
The angels? protests were silenced because they accepted that Avraham Avinu
was Jewish and therefore able to Shecht. Had they considered him not
Jewish, they would not have eaten because Shechita cannot be performed by a
non-Jew. Thus, the angels had already conceded that Avraham Avinu had an
inalienable connection to the Torah and therefore was able to Shecht and
create a Kosher BP. That being the case, they could not question nor
protest his chosen children?s rights to that heritage.
Of all aspects of BP this particular Halacha is so counter-intuitive, and
such a shock to our expectations, that even when Reb Chaim Kanievsky said
that cooking BP flesh with milk, is "Kosher VeYosher" (more than 100%)
Rabbanim who were with me and heard him say this, will not publicly admit
to it. Rav Moshe Sternbuch responded upon being asked if this was a DaAs
Yachid (a lone opinion), "Who argues?" - R Moshe quotes this Meshech
Chochmah MoAdim UzManim [?"? ??' ??"?] and thereby suggests another reason
for eating dairy on Shavuos - after all, it was via dairy that we succeeded
to silence the angels? protests. However, my son Yehudah, argues - in that
case, we really ought to be eating BBPbCh [Basar BP beChalav] on Shavuos.
That the BP may be cooked with milk is so obvious to Reb Meir Simcha, that
he does not bother to bring proof or expand upon the point.
Clearly, BP is utterly unlike any regular cow sheep or goat that may not be
cooked with dairy.
= = =
According to our traditions, Avraham Avinu maintained all the laws of the
Torah and also all the Rabbinic enactments. Rashi, Genesis 26:5; Yevamos
21. Accordingly, our Sages explain that Avraham did not offer the bread
[Rashi, Genesis 18:8; BMetzia 87] to his guests because Sara had
miraculously rejuvenated and become ritually unclean, making the bread
unclean. Although no more than a stringency Avraham Avinu would not serve
it to his non Jewish guests - presumably, if Avraham Avinu would not eat it
himself, he would not serve it to his guests - makes one pause and
contemplate about those who Kosher certify various foods and establishments
but will not eat that food themselves.
= = =
There are some who try to squeeze into the words of the MChochmah that it
is the milk which is not dairy because meat may be cooked with milk
collected from a Shechted beast, Chalav Shechuta, and a BP is deemed to be
a Shechuta.
There is a contrary argument however - some propose that Chalav Shechuta is
not ?mother?s milk?, meaning milk from a beast that can potentially be a
mother, whereas a BP can certainly be a mother, so its milk is not Chalav
Shechuta and may not be cooked with meat.
Either way, the argument collapses completely because Avraham Avinu would
not violate the Rabbinic law that prohibits cooking with Chalav Shechuta
[or deer or giraffe milk]
Best,
Meir G. Rabi
0423 207 837
+61 423 207 837
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Message: 9
From: Micha Berger
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 06:24:28 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Avraham A Cooked, Angels Ate - Bassar BeChalav
On Fri, Nov 03, 2017 at 04:38:08PM +1100, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
: Avraham Avinu entertained three angels masquerading as human visitors;
: feeding them goat flesh cooked with milk. Generations later, due to this
: meal, the angels' protest, that the Torah ought not be given to the Jews,
: was quashed.
Where's this medrash? Tosafists (Daas Zeqeinim, Bereishis 18:8) note
the contradiction between it and the medrash that the avos observe all
of halakhah (even eiruv tavshilin) and suggests the following. It is
also the Sifsei Chakhamim's and Bekhor Shor's take on the pasuq.
The chumash says, "vayiqach chem'ah vechalav uven habaqar asher
asah". There is no indication in the peshat that the veal was made
in the butter and/or milk. And in fact, the milk is mentioned first.
Leading to the opinion that Avraham even served them in a way that
kept them from consuming dairy immediately after meat!
The SC says he served them the milk so that they wouldn't have to wait
while hungrily for the veal while it was shechted and cooked.
The Radaq gives a different sesolution: Avraham prepared both so as
to give them a choice of what to eat.
: Reb Meir Simcha of Dvinsk explains in Meshech Chochmah, that no sin was
: transgressed since it was BP flesh, which may be cooked with milk.
Lo zakhisi lehavin haRav Meir Simcha haKohein, nor R' Kanievsky. Isn't
that only mutar deRabbanan if it is killed before it can even stands up,
so as to avoid mar'is ayin, like shechitah? And the gemara's example of
the avos keeping kol haTorah kulah is Avraham keeping eiruv -- so that
that aggadita means to include derabbanans.
And even if we're saying that we're talking about BP without the taqanos,
And if it is ben paqua and thus didn't need shechitah, why does the
asame medrash make a point of Avraham shechting it?
The tradition that Avraham Avinu authored seifer haYetzirah (for which
I also have no source) includes the resolution that a calf made through
ShY ("uven havaqar ASHER ASAH"), rather than invoking BP.
:-)BBii!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger A person lives with himself for seventy years,
mi...@aishdas.org and after it is all over, he still does not
http://www.aishdas.org know himself.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Rav Yisrael Salanter
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Message: 10
From: Zev Sero
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 11:27:40 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Avraham A Cooked, Angels Ate - Bassar BeChalav
On 03/11/17 01:38, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
> feeding them goat flesh cooked with milk
Since when? He fed them beef, together with cream (or butter) and
milk, separately but simultaneously.
> The angels? protests were silenced because they accepted that Avraham
> Avinu was Jewish and therefore able to Shecht. Had they considered him
> not Jewish, they would not have eaten because Shechita cannot be
> performed by a non-Jew. Thus, the angels had already conceded that
> Avraham Avinu had an inalienable connection to the Torah and therefore
> was able to Shecht and create a Kosher BP. That being the case, they
> could not question nor protest his chosen children?s rights to that
> heritage.
If so then why bring the milk into it at all? Simply by eating meat
he'd shechted (or rather that his son Yishma`el had shechted) they had
conceded all that (according to this explanation) was required. Why
complicate the matter with questions of basar bechalav? Therefore it's
clear that that was not the issue.
--
Zev Sero May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name be a brilliant year for us all
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