Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 30

Fri, 10 Mar 2017

• 1. Is one permitted to bathe, take a haircut or listen to music on Taanis Esther? (Professor L. Levine)
• 2. prof berger (saul newman)
• 3. yom tov sheni shel galiyos (Eli Turkel)
• 4. More Than 6 (Jay F. Shachter)
• 5. Re: prof berger (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: prof berger (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: waiting after meat broth (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: waiting after meat broth (Ben Waxman)
• 9. Peru uRvu and IVF (Micha Berger)
• 10. Yom Tov Sheni (was Israeli Americans) (Prof. Levine)
• 11. Have you perhaps become more machmir or more meikil over time? (Eli Turkel)
• 12. Re: Have you perhaps become more machmir or more meikil over time? (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: How to become a kohein (elazar teitz)

From today's OU Halacha Yomis


Q. Is one permitted to bathe, take a haircut or listen to music on Taanis Esther?


A. The Meiri (Sefer Magen Avos 23) writes that Taanis Esther is different
than other communal fast days. Other communal fast days commemorate events
of tragedy, while Taanis Esther is a day of celebration, for on that day,
the Jews of old fasted before going to war (Mishna Berura 686:2), merited
to have Hashem listen to their plea and overcame their enemies.

This contrast is reflected in the following halacha: The Gemara (Megila 5a)
states that when the 9th day of Av falls on Shabbos, the fast of Tisha B'av
is delayed until Sunday. We do not observe the fast before Shabbos because
one should postpone, rather than advance, the commemoration of tragedy. In
contrast, when the 13th day of Adar falls on Shabbos (as is the case this
year), Taanis Esther is observed on the previous Thursday. We may advance
the fast since it commemorates a joyous event.

By the same token, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, zt"l (Halichos Shlomo, Purim
18:6) contrasts Taanis Esther with other fast days with respect to bathing
and cutting hair. Although bathing is technically permitted on all fast
days except Tisha B'av (Shulchan Oruch 550:1), and hair cutting is
acceptable on Tzom Gedalia and Asara B'teves, some are stringent and do not
bathe and take haircuts on communal fast days, in keeping with the sad
character of the day . This is not the case with Taanis Esther, where
everyone agrees that bathing and haircuts are permissible.

Rav Zilberstein, shlita (Chashukei Chemed Megila 16b) writes that one may
even listen to music. However, Rav Elyashiv, zt"l is quoted in the sefer
Ashrei HaIsh (Vol. 3:41:20) as saying that it is inappropriate to listen to
music on Taanis Esther. Taanis Esther is also a day of forgiveness, and
music will detract from the solemnity of the day.


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1.   where is  there  data  that  thos e 'praying to the rebbe '  are a mi'ut
delo shekhiachah?  at least at the Ohel , doubt that's true.  and one hears
constantly of people saying the will 'ask the rebbe for ___'   where others
might daven to Hashem

2.  as to the nature of Gd/Rebbe/Atzmus,  ask the OU whether they still
question L shochtim about their theology before allowing them on an OU line

3.  when did the cited talmud passages become non-normative? Constantine
had already christified the Empire before talmud was codified.  was it when
the first jews first landed in Europe and were told to swear allegiance to
a ressurected messiah?
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<<The *mishna* (ibid.), however, relates that a group of antagonistic
residents of the Land of Israel known as the *Kutim* (Samaritans) purposely
disrupted the system of lighting fires by lighting fires on the wrong days.
The *Yerushalmi* (*Rosh Ha-Shana* 2:1) relates that R. Yehuda Ha-Nasi,
discontinued the practice of using fires as a result. The Rabbis therefore
had no choice but to send out messengers to inform the communities
regarding the exact day of *Rosh Chodesh*. These messengers did not reach
the communities on the Diaspora, and therefore these areas would observe
two days of *Yom Tov*, as they did not know the proper day of the
Festival.' >>

As pointed out this is an explicit Mishna. However, the gemara that RYL
quotes actually proves my point as the practice started in the days of R.
Yehuda haNasi ie the end of the tannaim and well after the second Temple
era.

Also, there are two ways of "observing" yom tov sheni. In the beginning it
was a safek when an individual community would not know which day was
yomtov.. So each community each year would decide to keep one or two days
depending on whether the messengers reached them for that holiday.
However, later in Amoraic times there was a formal gezera that all
communities outside of EY keep 2 days yomtov.
Eli

-- 
Eli Turkel
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>
>     The dimensions of the universe are precise, mathematically
>     exact. [For instance], the universe is shaped by six
>     mathematical constants
>     ......................................................................
> 
> Is the idea here precision for the sake of seder itself, or that --
> like the creation of the universe and the 6 Physical Constants --
> details matter in the mech[ani]cs of things?
> 
> -Micha
> 

This is clearly a reference to the book "Just Six Numbers" by fellow
Brit Martin Rees, but there are plenty of unexplained dimensionless
constants that shape our universe beyond the 6 that Rees chose to
write about.  For example, we have no explanation for why a proton is
exactly 1836.152672 times as massive as an electron (actually, there
are heavier electrons, there are muons and tau particles, together
with their associated neutrinos, although they are not stable, no one
knows exactly why).  Let's not limit our awe of the Divine
Intelligence by thinking that God only had to get 6 numbers right to
plan out our universe.  There were a lot more than that.


                        Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter
                        6424 N Whipple St
                        Chicago IL  60645-4111
                                (1-773)7613784   landline
                                (1-410)9964737   GoogleVoice
                                j...@m5.chicago.il.us
                                http://m5.chicago.il.us

                        "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur"

On 08/03/17 12:04, saul newman via Avodah wrote:
> 1.   where is  there  data  that  thos e 'praying to the rebbe '  are
> a mi'ut delo shekhiachah?  at least at the Ohel , doubt that's true.
>  and one hears constantly of people saying the will 'ask the rebbe for
> ___'   where others might daven to Hashem

The point is that they are not asking him to provide whatever it is 
himself, but to ask Hashem to provide it.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

On Wed, Mar 08, 2017 at 09:04:03AM -0800, saul newman wrote:
: 1.   where is  there  data  that  thos e 'praying to the rebbe '  are a mi'ut
: delo shekhiachah?  at least at the Ohel , doubt that's true...

It's not data, it's anecdotal. But pretty broad consensus of anecdote-based
confusion. (Except among on-line discussion, where cynicism and criticism
are overly popular.)

But lots of people daven at a qever; that's no a Chabad thing. One would
have to prove those at the LR's Ohel are doing something significantly
different.

: 2.  as to the nature of Gd/Rebbe/Atzmus,  ask the OU whether they still
: question L shochtim about their theology before allowing them on an OU line

Assuming my explanation of the concept describes what the vast majority
believe, or something close to it, there is no need.

: 3.  when did the cited talmud passages become non-normative? ...

YOu didn't say what was cited, just that they exist.

The famous "i min mesaya" (Sanhedrin 98b) is usually understood in light
of the next words "hu KEGON Daniel eish Chamudos" -- not that moshiach is
from among the dead, but who from among the dead can he be compared to.
(Eg Rashi's lishnah acharina "im yeish dugmaso bechayim...", the Maharal,
the Ben Ish Hai.) The LR says it's about gilgul, not the person actually
returning in the sense the messianists mean. See Liqutei Sichos #35, Vayigash
3, fn 6 <ht
tp://www.hebrewbooks.org/pagefeed/hebrewbooks_org_15959_218.pdf>.

There is a parallel Y-mi (Berakhos 2:4, vilna 17a):
    Rabanan amerei:
    Ahen malka meshicha
    In mi chaya hu, David shemeih
    In mi demikhaya hu, David shemeih
R' Tachnuma then cites Tehillim 18 as a prooftext, "ve'oseh chesed
limshicho leDavid". Then the discussion goes on suggesting Tamach or
Menchachem as his name.

The Penei Moshe has "ve'im min hameisim hu yihyeh David atzmo".

But the Zohar (Lekh Lekha 135) paraphrases it as "and if he is from
the neshamos haniftarim". Which is more like the LR.

And in neither gemra is this the last word in the sugya.

First peshat in Rashi would have Rav saying that Daniel or the like
could come back from the dead to be mashiach. But it's drowned out
by those who couldn't accept the naive read -- even by Rashi himself.

: had already christified the Empire before talmud was codified.  was it when
: the first jews first landed in Europe and were told to swear allegiance to
: a ressurected messiah?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "I hear, then I forget; I see, then I remember;
mi...@aishdas.org        I do, then I understand." - Confucius
http://www.aishdas.org   "Hearing doesn't compare to seeing." - Mechilta
Fax: (270) 514-1507      "We will do and we will listen." - Israelites

On 08/03/17 00:39, Lisa Liel via Avodah wrote:
> https://ww
> w.scribd.com/document/337590069/Further-on-Waiting-Times-After-Eating-
> Parmesan-Pizza-Response-to-R-Ysoscher-Katz
> I was reading an article today, when I came across this:

>> R. Katz then introduces another rationale for permissibility in the
>> case under discussion, based on the rule that one need not wait
>> after consuming soup into which meat was dissolved or liquefied (a
>> "tavshil shel basar" - YD 89:3), arguing that:

> I've never heard of this before.  Is this saying that meat broth with no
> solids whatsoever doesn't require the same waiting period before eating
> dairy as meat?

That is the SA's psak, but the Rama forbids it.  So perhaps this is a 
S/A chiluk; can any of our S chaverim confirm that they do allow it?


-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

See YD 89:3 where the Beit Yosef says that if one ate tavshil shel 
basar, you can have milk afterwards, even without rinsing one's mouth. 
The Rema says that we are machmir and treat tavshil shel basar like 
basar. The achronim (Kaf Hachayim IIRC) says that Sefardim accepted the 
Rema's chumra.

Ben

On 3/8/2017 7:39 AM, Lisa Liel via Avodah wrote:
> I've never heard of this before.  Is this saying that meat broth with 
> no solids whatsoever doesn't require the same waiting period before 
> eating dairy as meat?

BH I was recently mesayeim AhS YD, and started EhE. In the Rashi-script
postscript to 1:18, RYME writes:
    And know, that there is someone who explored in [the case of] the
    woman who got pregnant in the baths, if the father fulfilled piryah
    verivyah. However, since this is not shekhiach at all, there is no
    [motive] to go at length about this.

However, nowadays, a halachically similar case *is* common -- IVF.
There is one possibly significant difference; IVF involves intent.
The man who reproduced via a bathhouse likely wasn't planning on doing so.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

At 04:00 PM 3/8/2017, Zev Sero wrote:

 >On 08/03/17 05:02, Prof. Levine via Areivim wrote:
 > >>
 > >
 > > For a discussion of the "development" of Yom Tov Sheni see
 > > http://etzion.org.il/en/yom-tov-sheni-1
 > >
 > > There it says
 > > [...] R.Yehuda Ha-Nasi, discontinued the practice of using fires [...]
 > > these areas would observe two days of /Yom Tov/, as they did not know
 > > the proper day of the Festival.'
 >
 >
 >I repeat, we have clear evidence that the practise of observing two days
 >of yomtov is far older than that, older than the second Bayis, and
 >probably going back to the late first Bayis.

then give us this evidence in detail.

YL  
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<<Based on this paragraph alone, I would say that Rav Elyashiv's approach is
to analyze the act based purely on the melachos involved, while Rav
Auerbach considers other factors too. This does not define either of them
as a meikil or a machmir. (Do I really need to cite the many rabbis over
the centuries who said, "I'm not being meikil about Yom Kippur, chalila!
I'm being machmir on sakana!") >>

All this statement does is make the phrases machmir and mekil meaningless
and so the entire discussion is vacuous.  I had assumed that we were using
machmir and mekil in the usual colloquial sense. Machmir is one who takes
the more stringent choice meaning prohibiting something.while mekil means
choosing the lenient choice meaning being more permissive to the individual.
We all agree that any real psak is based on sources and so the difference
between mekil and machmir is the weight given to the different component.

One well known case involves agunot. Some dayanim are machmir meaning they
make it very hard for the woman to remarry because they don't want to take
the chance of allowing a mmarried woman to remarry (and some have been
quoted to lose their own olam haba). Other dayanim are mekil to look for
heterim for the woman to remarry.

I am sure you can redine the words machmir and mekil so they don't apply
but this is the usual definition of machmir and mekil.

A famous example is the psak of ROY on bishul akum for sefardim. The
mechaber paskens that to avoid bishul akum the Jew has to essentially
participate in the cooking and not just light the fire (as per Rama). The
modern consequence is that a sefardi cannot eat is most restaurants in
Israel and certainly outside Israel where the cooks tend to be nonJews. ROY
combines several quasi-heterim to give a heter even against the Mechaber.



regarding objectivity in psak see the following quote from RYBS

...I have undertaken the research into the halakhic phase of this problem,
which is fraught with grave political and social implications on the
highest level of public relations, with utmost care and seriousness. Yet, I
cannot lay claim to objectivity if the latter should signify the absence of
axiological premises and a completely emotionally detached attitude. The
halakhic inquiry, like any other cognitive theoretical performance, does
not start out from the point of absolutely zero as to sentimental attitudes
and value judgments. There always exists in the mind of the researcher an
ethico-axiological background against which the contours of the subject
matter in question stand out more clearly. In all fields of human
intellectual endeavor there is always an intuitive approach which
determines the course and method of the analysis. Not even in exact
sciences (particularly in their interpretative phase) is it possible to
divorce the human element from the formal aspect. Hence this investigation
was also undertaken in a similar subjective mood. From the very outset I
was prejudiced in favor of the project of the Rabbinical Council of America
and I could not imagine any halakhic authority rendering a decision against
it. My inquiry consisted only translating a vague intuitive feeling into
fixed terms of halakhic discursive thinking."
-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Thu, Mar 09, 2017 at 12:25:08PM +0200, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
:                                           I had assumed that we were using
: machmir and mekil in the usual colloquial sense. Machmir is one who takes
: the more stringent choice meaning prohibiting something.while mekil means
: choosing the lenient choice meaning being more permissive to the individual.

Two definitions, slightly different than each other, in both cases
verbs, not adjectives for posqim:

machmir:
    1- picking the side of broader issur or chiyuv
    2- picking the side the sho'el is less likely to want

(Meiqil is just v.v.)

For example, a feminist might ask about whether she and her friends are
mechuyavos to make a zimun when eating together. If the poseiq says indeed
she is, he is being machmir-1 because he is saying she is mechuyeves
in something another poseiq might deny. But the poseiq is also being
meiqil-2, because the sho'eles had gotten the answer she wanted.

There are communities in Y-m where the two definitions are roughly
anti-correlated. People are looking for ways to be mosir nefesh, even
their posers are looking for ways to look to others like they're being
mosir nefesh. And so, the broader the issur or chiyuv is defined, the
happier they'll be.

...
: regarding objectivity in psak see the following quote from RYBS
: 
:> ...I have undertaken the research into the halakhic phase of this problem,
:> which is fraught with grave political and social implications on the
:> highest level of public relations, with utmost care and seriousness. Yet, I
:> cannot lay claim to objectivity if the latter should signify the absence of
:> axiological premises and a completely emotionally detached attitude. The
:> halakhic inquiry, like any other cognitive theoretical performance, does
:> not start out from the point of absolutely zero as to sentimental attitudes
:> and value judgments...

But that value judgment, even that sentiment, should be coming from a
place of wanting to do Hashem's will. A Torah based axiology, even if
RYBS's Brisker heritage would mean he is less likely to speak about the
impact of aggadita on halachic decision-making.

To pre-empt the obvious objection: I am not speaking of da'as Torah,
that immersion in Torah makes one more capable to lead a community or
help guide decisionmaking when the unknowns are in metzi'us.

I am talking about immersion in Torah making one more capable of
interpreting Torah. Including ways that the poseiq himself cannot
articulate. The art of pesaq that one gets by osmosis through shimush
rabbanim, as well as the general feel for the big picture and then able
to say (as the Rambam did) "libi omer li".

A poseiq has to have a lot of yir'as Shamayim to guard against confusing
what he wants that big picture to be from what picture the Torah really
gives him. There is no algorithmic rule here.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Life is a stage and we are the actors,
mi...@aishdas.org        but only some of us have the script.
http://www.aishdas.org               - Rav Menachem Nissel
Fax: (270) 514-1507

The Netziv, in B'midbar 26:5, writes that the sh'vatim undoubtedly had
children in Mitzrayim, but they were not given "family names" because
they were not born in EY; rather, they were subsumed into the existing
families of that shevet. I would imagine that the same would be true of
the non-kohanim: they were attached to assorted mishmaros of Levi'im,
perhaps on a basis of geographical proximity.


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