Volume 34: Number 107
Fri, 02 Sep 2016
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2016 09:46:36 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Using an oven for both fleishigs and milchigs
On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 11:17 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> However, se'if 9 discussing cooking utensils says that keli zekhukhis ein
> bahem tashmish bechamin. So if glass were usable as actual keli rishon
> cookware, perhaps he would be machmir. But the AhS predated the common
> use of pyrex and the like.
again from Rav Heineman
Q: Is corningware glass?
A: No, it is like china.
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Message: 2
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2016 06:23:35 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Using an oven for both fleishigs and milchigs
On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 09:46:36AM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
: On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 11:17 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
:> However, se'if 9 discussing cooking utensils says that keli zekhukhis ein
:> bahem tashmish bechamin. So if glass were usable as actual keli rishon
:> cookware, perhaps he would be machmir. But the AhS predated the common
:> use of pyrex and the like.
: again from Rav Heineman
:> Q: Is corningware glass?
:> A: No, it is like china.
But even though corningware and pyrex are both inventions of Corning Inc,
I would not say it is "and the like".
Pyrex is a borosilicate glass. As opposed to the usual glass,
which is sode-lime glass. Regular glass expands when heated, and is
a poor conductor of heat. So, when you heat up one side, it epands
diginicantly faster than the rest, and as a result, your keli shatters. By
replacing sodium with boron in the formula, they lower the expansion
coefficient. The resulting keli therefore doesn't shatter when heated,
and is therefore usable for beakers to be placed atop bunsen burners,
or pots to be placed on stoves or ovens. It really is glass, a non-porous
mostly melted-silicon thing.
Corningware (identical to Europe's "Pyroflam") is a glass-ceramic.
Meaning, it glass that is reheated and parts are allowed to crystallize.
A different resulting structure than actual glass.
Arguing that corningware is partly ceramic and therefore a keli cheres
is much simpler. And then one gets into the question as to whether one
should treat a non-porous keli cheres like other cheres. A question
resolved lechumera earlier, with porcelain.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger When we are no longer able to change a situation
mi...@aishdas.org -- just think of an incurable disease such as
http://www.aishdas.org inoperable cancer -- we are challenged to change
Fax: (270) 514-1507 ourselves. - Victor Frankl (MSfM)
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Message: 3
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2016 07:18:22 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The takana of krias hatorah on Monday and
On Sun, Aug 21, 2016 at 10:54:16AM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
: Todays daf (Bava Kama 82a) discusses the takanos of Ezra and one of the
: takanas mentioned is that of reading the Torah on Mondays and Thursdays.
On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 08:14:41AM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
: The Gemara states that Moshe made the original Takana of 3 pesukim and
: Ezra expanded it. So this Takana already existed at the time of Menashe
: that they would read the Torah on Mondays and Thursday's. In fact it
: existed in the midbar because Moshe made it.
Actually, see the MB 135:0 (intro to se'if 135). It is a machloqes as to
whether Mon, Thu and Shabbos Minchah were part of the original taqanah
or part of the addition.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
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Message: 4
From: M Cohen
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2016 11:17:47 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] aveilut for an abuser
MYG... A man receives a heter mei'ah rabbanim, marries again, and then his
first (and still) wife dies. He sits shivah for the first, presumably, even
though they may have been estranged for years. (A similar situation, though
less weird to me, would be in regards to an agunah, where a spouse would
presumably sit shivah for the spouse even though they haven't been in
contact for years.)
2 points.
It was perfectly normal for a man (before r'gershon, or for Sephardim) to
sit shiva for a wife, while still married to other wives
In the agunah case - if he was mechuayav to divorce her and refused to do so
he (perhaps) w be considered a rasha and no shiva would be required.
Mordechai cohen
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Message: 5
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2016 13:40:49 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] aveilut for an abuser
On 31/08/16 11:17, M Cohen wrote:
> In the agunah case - if he was mechuayav to divorce her and refused to do so
> he (perhaps) w be considered a rasha and no shiva would be required.
In the normal case of an agunah he's not a rasha at all. In most cases
he's been dead all along.
--
Zev Sero Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name meaning merely by appending them to the two other
words `God can'. Nonsense remains nonsense, even
when we talk it about God. -- C S Lewis
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Message: 6
From: Chesky Salomon
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2016 16:22:43 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Pesukim LeShemos Anoshim
On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 10:32 PM, Isaac Balbin wrote:
> I did see someone claim the Hebrew word Chanun has the same meaning as
> the Yiddish [Zelig] but that is news to me and I'm skeptical.
>
> If someone has access to Bar Ilan I'd be interested to see the hits on
> Zelik vs Zelig.
>
> I always thought it was ??? because I came across "Usher Zelig" names.
>
> Seems the plot thickens because there is also a relationship with Selig.
>
> Google told me
> "from the Yiddish vocabulary word selig happy, fortunate (modern German
> selig), used as a vernacular translation of the Hebrew name Asher
> <https://themeaningofthename.com/asher/>"
I?d thought Zelig = spirit-like, and that Usher Zelig ? Usher Anshel where
Anshel comes from the Latin for angel.
?Chesky Salomon
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Message: 7
From: Cantor Wolberg
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2016 20:47:43 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Mourning an Abusive Parent
Since the topic of Agunah indicated that she still would have to sit shiva for him
even if he were a menuval. So I have the following question: If an adult child
murders his parents, is he mechuyav to sit shiva for them? I know that sounds
ridiculous but since it can happen, what is the halacha?
My second question is: Can you learn Torah from a known pedophile?
rw
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Message: 8
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2016 22:08:31 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Mourning an Abusive Parent
On 31/08/16 01:42, Aryeh Frimer via Avodah wrote:
> An individual guilty of such a crime is certainly way beyond the
> pale, and certainly falls into the category of those who "deviate
> from the practices of the community." To our mind, the author's
> suggestion, that the actions included in this category must be "done
> deliberately to outrage the community" (/The Mind/, p. 87), is
> creative - but without basis and support.
Lich'orah "poresh midarchei tzibur" by definition can only apply to
devarim shebefarhesia, not to matters that one would expect the tzibur
not to know about.
> (2) The author cites R. Shabbetai haKohen (/YD/, 240:18, no. 20) who
> maintains that while one is not obligated to honor an evil parent,
> one may not cause them anguish. This is indeed an important argument
> when discussing the parameters of counseling an abused individual
> while the parent is still alive. These parameters are indeed
> discussed by the author and other scholars at length.[4]
> However, once the unrepentant sexually abusive parent has passed
> away, I find it hard to accept the suggestion that this could be an
> argument against abstaining from mourning him/her.
What is the difference between before and after death? I would expect
to hear such an argument from one who doesn't believe in hash'aras hanefesh,
or from one who believes that death immediately removes one from all contact
with this world, so that the dead don't care about what happens here. But
AFAIK it's standard Jewish belief that the dead, especially the recently
dead, care very much about what's happening to their bodies, and about their
postmortem reputations. Thus the prohibitions on nivul hameis, on moving
bodies, and on defaming the dead.
OTOH this could lead to another consideration: If the child wishes to
subject the parent to the anguish of being unmourned, not out of anger
but out of love, so that the parent should have a kaparah, that would
be a reason to permit it.
--
Zev Sero Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name meaning merely by appending them to the two other
words `God can'. Nonsense remains nonsense, even
when we talk it about God. -- C S Lewis
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Message: 9
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 12:24:03 +0000
Subject: [Avodah] Rambam intent
From R' Simcha Herzog - " and although Maharal contends that Maimonides (he
contends the same vis a vis the Tur) would never have published his Mishneh
Torah had he been aware that his work would eventually be used by scholars
to decide halachic questions without being required to have recourse to the
Talmud - that seems to be somewhat wishful thinking as Maimonides famously
and controversially seemingly wanted his magnum opus to replace other
sources of the Oral Law
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=49246&;st=&pgnum=12 "
Me- I suppose it depends whether one thinks the Rambam's addressing "adam"
means adam in the street or everyone. I suspect he meant it for those not
capable of study at his level, but who knows - after all didn't R' Yosef
Karo write the S"A as a cheat sheet for those who couldn't handle the beit
yosef due to time or resource constraint's? Any research/thoughts on this?
KT
Joel Rich
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Message: 10
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 13:47:12 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Rambam intent
On Thu, Sep 01, 2016 at 12:24:03PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: I suppose it depends whether one thinks the Rambam's addressing "adam"
: means adam in the street or everyone. I suspect he meant it for those not
: capable of study at his level, but who knows - after all didn't R' Yosef
: Karo write the S"A as a cheat sheet for those who couldn't handle the
: beit yosef due to time or resource constraint's? Any research/thoughts
: on this?
RMR and I argued this Maharal at length (for months, under a number of
different subject lines) on-list.
LAD, the Rambam wrote Mishnah Torah as shelish bemishnah, still requiring
shelish begemara (lehavin davar mitokh davar, etc...) for those who are
capable of it.
Similarly, the Mechaber wrote the SA for the masses, but expected a poseiq
to use the BY.
What we argued about was whether the Maharal's negative statements
about codes went as far as banning them for the masses as well. And
thus, how do we distinguish between higi'ah lehora'ah and not, and
how much is someone who is not higi'ah lehora'ah expected to 2nd-guess
his poseiq and follow his own seikhel.
See "Maharal; Brain is the Soul, Service to HKBH is but" through
"Maharal; Brain is the Soul, Service to HKBH is" (5 index entries)
http://www.aishdas.org/
avodah/getindex.cgi?section=M#MAHARAL%20BRAIN%20IS%20THE%20SOUL%20SERVICE%2
0TO%20HKBH%20IS%20BUT
"BeisDin Errs Who Brings the Chattos?"
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?s
ection=B#BEISDIN%20ERRS%20WHO%20BRINGS%20THE%20CHATTOS
When BD Errs, Who Brings the Sin Offering (4 entries)
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getin
dex.cgi?section=W#WHEN%20BD%20ERRS%20WHO%20BRINGS%20THE%20SIN%20OFFERING
Brain is the Link to HKBH
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=B#B
RAIN%20IS%20THE%20LINK%20TO%20HKBH
Lama Li KeRa? Sevara Hu (2 entries)
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=L#LAMA%2
0LI%20KERA%20SEVARA%20HU
ve'od.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Rescue me from the desire to win every
mi...@aishdas.org argument and to always be right.
http://www.aishdas.org - Rav Nassan of Breslav
Fax: (270) 514-1507 Likutei Tefilos 94:964
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Message: 11
From: saul newman
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 08:57:12 -0700
Subject: [Avodah] earth stops spinning
1. hashemesh begivon dom. do we assume that means the earth didn't rotate
then , or was it an optical effect?
2. if the former, then is this science true?
https:/
/www.quora.com/Youre-flying-a-small-plane-when-the-Earth-stops-spinning-for
-10-seconds-then-starts-spinning-again-What-do-you-do
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Message: 12
From: Micha Berger
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 15:58:38 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Mourning an Abusive Parent
On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 08:47:43PM -0400, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote:
: If an adult child murders his parents, is he mechuyav to sit shiva for
: them? I know that sounds ridiculous but since it can happen, what is
: the halacha?
Why does it sound ridiculous? He has *more* need to be taught to regret
their loss. And in any case, as we have seen, there is a kibud av va'eim
element to mourning one's parent, and thereby an element of bein adam
laMaqom (BALM). However, for the first reason, I would think that someone
would be obligated to sit shiv'ah for a sibling, spouse or child that
they murdered even without the BALM angle.
: My second question is: Can you learn Torah from a known pedophile?
In a move that I am sure will surprise noone, let me quote from the
instroduction to Shaarei Yosher. I believe he is saying that it is
only someone who knows enough in comparison to the teacher that they
can sift out the chaffe and take the flour, as the gemara describes
R' Meir's relationship with Acher.
But I agree with the point I think you're implying -- Torah isn't math.
If the person is not showing the Torah's influence, the information you
get from him must perforce be tainted.
But to my mind it is worth knowing and contemplating what our Sages
said on Chagiga folio 15b. How could Rabbi Meir receive Torah from
the mouth of Acheir [the former Rabbi Elisha ben Avuya, after he
became a heretic]? Doesn't Rabba bar bar Chana quote R' Yochanan
[in Chagiga as saying] "What does it mean when it says For the
kohein's lips should keep knowledge; they should see Torah from
his lips, for he is the angel of Hashem, L-rd of Hosts" (Malachi
2:7)? If the rav is similar to an angel of Hashem, L-rd of Hosts,
seek Torah from his mouth. And if not, do not seek Torah from his
mouth." And the Talmud concludes, "There is no question -- this
[Rabbi Meir studying under Acheir] is with someone great, this
[the verse] is of someone of smaller stature."
It is worth understanding according to this how Rabbi Yochanan spoke
without elaboration, since he speaks only of the smaller statured,
not the greats. One may say that we should be exacting in that
Rabbi Yochanan said, "seek Torah from his mouth" and not "learn from
him". For in truth, one who learns from his peer does not learn from
the mouth of the person who is teaching him, but listens and weighs
on the scales of his mind, and then he understands the concept. This
is not learning "from the mouth of" his teacher, but from the mind
of the teacher. "Torah from the mouth" is only considered accepting
the concepts as he heard them, with no criticism. And it was by this
idea that Rabbi Yochanan spoke about accepting Torah from the mouth
[i.e. uncritically] only if the rabbi is similar to an angel of
Hashem, L-rd of Hosts.
And according to this, in Rabbi Yochanan's words is hinted a
distinction between who is of smaller stature and who is great. The
one of smaller stature will learn Torah from the mouth, for he is
unable to decide what to draw near and want to keep away. Whereas a
person of great stature who has the ability to decide [critically]
does not learn Torah from [someone else's] mouth.
Similarly, it's appropriate to alert anyone who contemplates the books
of acharonim that they should not "learn Torah from their mouths",
they shouldn't make a fundamental out of everything said in their
words before they explore well those words.
Something similar to a reminder of this idea can be learned from what
the gemara says in Bava Metzia, chapter "One Who Hires Workers". Rabbi
Chiya said, "I made it so that the Torah would not be forgotten
from Israel." It explains there that he would plant linen, spread
out nets [made of tat linen, thereby] hunt deer, made parchment
[of their hides], and wrote [on them] chumash texts. This hints that
whatever is in our power to prepare from the beginning of the Torah,
it is incumbent on us to do ourselves, according to the ability that
was inherited to us to explore and understand. And not to rely on
the words of the gedolim who preceded us.
:-)BBii!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Our greatest fear is not that we're inadequate,
mi...@aishdas.org Our greatest fear is that we're powerful
http://www.aishdas.org beyond measure
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Anonymous
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Message: 13
From: Zev Sero
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 14:57:44 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] earth stops spinning
On 02/09/16 11:57, saul newman via Avodah wrote:
> 1. hashemesh begivon dom. do we assume that means the earth didn't
> rotate then , or was it an optical effect?
>
> 2. if the former, then is this science true?
> https://www.quor
> a.com/Youre-flying-a-small-plane-when-the-Earth-stops-spinning-for-10-
> seconds-then-starts-spinning-a
> gain-What-do-you-do
I think it has to mean that the earth stopped rotating, or that the sun
(and probably the rest of the universe) started rotating to remain over
the same longitude of the earth, which are two ways of stating exactly
the same thing. And that all inertial effects were automatically damped
out by the same miracle that made it happen in the first place. So yes,
That is the problem with stupid questions like that one on Quora. If the
premise of a question requires a suspension of natural law, then the answer
can't assume natural law remains in effect. As Manoach's wife told him,
if Hashem meant us to die He wouldn't have sent us the angel in the first
place; therefore even if the sight of angels is deadly, we're protected.
If fresh water is coming out of a rock, it's silly to analyze its chemical
makeup and worry about the water being toxic; it's water, not liquid rock.
If the sea splits it's silly to analyze the weight of the water behind the
"walls" and figure out their tensile strength or structural integrity;
whatever changes in nature are necessary to make the miracle work are
included in the miracle.
--
Zev Sero Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name meaning merely by appending them to the two other
words `God can'. Nonsense remains nonsense, even
when we talk it about God. -- C S Lewis
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Message: 14
From: Micha Berger
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 15:38:36 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] earth stops spinning
On Fri, Sep 02, 2016 at 08:57:12AM -0700, saul newman via Avodah wrote:
: 1. hashemesh begivon dom. do we assume that means the earth didn't
: rotate then , or was it an optical effect?
The Radaq ad loc (Yeshohua 10:14) noted that in Yeshayah 38:8, the sun
goes backwards for Chizqiyahu, not "merely" stopped.
See AZ 25a, which seems to rule out optical effects.
Machloqes version 1:
R Yehoshua ben Levi says there was 24 hours of daylight. "Velo
atz lavo kayom tamim". The sun moved for 6 hours, stopped for 6,
moved for another 6 hours, stopped for 6, and so on.
R' Elazar: 36 hours. Moved for 6 then stopped for 12, moved for
6 and stopped for 12 -- so that the total time it stopped was
"kayom tamim".
R' Shmuel bar Nachmeini: 48 hours. Moved for 6. stopped for 12,
moved for 5 stopped for 12 for. "Velo atz lavo", the second time
was a yom tamim, unlike the first time.
Machloqes, Tosefta's version:
RYbL: 24 *additional* hours of sunlight, 36 altogether. Moving
for 6, stop for 12, moving for 6, stopped for 12
RE: 36 *additional* hours, 48 altogether. Moved for 6, stopped
for 12, moved for 6, stopped for 25.
RSbN: 48 *additional* hours, 60 altogether. Move 6, stop 24,
move 6 stop for 24.
The Ralbag says it was a psychological effect. Hashem allowed such
a rapid victory that it felt liike the earth stopped. But then, the
Ralbag's notion of miracle is that it never defies nature. Within his
Aristotelian Physics, an intellect imparting impetus to an object to
make it move is within Physics. A miracle is when G-d's Intellect does
so at just the right time. There is no corresponding concept in
Physical theories since Newton.
The Maharal objects to the Ralbag (2nd intro Gevuros Hashem) and
says the sun did indeed stop, but only for those people in Giv'on --
shemesh beGiv'on dom. And then he goes on to explain how nissim cause an
inconsistent reality. Each person experiencing the version appropriate
for them. (Leshitaso, water didn't turn into blood when taken by a
Mitzri during makas dam; it was simultaneously water for Jews and blood
for Mitzriim.)
: 2. if the former, then is this science true?
What science? If the world suddenly stopped spinning, HQBH employed
a whole lot of action with no re-action. Once you have a miracle
the size of the angular momentum of the entire planet -- plus
whatever electromagnetic seconry effects among the molten iron
in the corse and the earth's magnetic field, addin to it Hashem
tampering with everything in the air as wll is only a minor
addition.
:-)BBii!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger The trick is learning to be passionate in one's
mi...@aishdas.org ideals, but compassionate to one's peers.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507
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