Avodah Mailing List

Volume 34: Number 74

Sun, 26 Jun 2016

• 1. Re: YH with haredi teachers (Ben Waxman)
• 2. Re: birchat kohanim (Ben Waxman)
• 3. birkhat cohanim (Eli Turkel)
• 4. Re: birchat kohanim (Rich, Joel)
• 5. Re: birchat kohanim (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: birchat kohanim (Ben Waxman)
• 7. Re: Birchas Kohanim (elazar teitz)
• 8. Re: Birchas Kohanim (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: listening to governments and derabbanan (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: how to fix a mamzer (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Birchas Kohanim (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Birchas Kohanim (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: birchat kohanim (Marty Bluke)
• 14. Re: derabban (Eli Turkel)
• 15. Re: Birchas Kohanim (elazar teitz)

There is also an ideological element to the reduced numbers. Rav Zvi 
Yehuda Kook strongly pressured the DL schools to not hire chareidi 
teachers (for obvious reasons).

Ben

On 6/22/2016 9:56 AM, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> In Israel it was once common to find charedi teachers in DL schools. 
> Today with the
> abundance of hesder yeshivot and seminars like Herzog it is rare for a 
> DL school to hire a charedi teacher.


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I thought that they blessed AM Yisrael, not the people in the minyan. 
Therefore it would make no difference to you if you daven there or in 
Monsey.

Ben

On 6/23/2016 1:45 PM, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> How would you analyze the amount of ?bother? you should go to in Eretz 
> Yisrael to attend a minyan where there are kohanim in order to get 
> birchat hakohanim? Differentiate between the mitzvah and the benefit 
> of the bracha. Does it turn on the machloket as to whether the mitzvah 
> is on the cohanim alone?

<<Who holds that there is a mitzvah to be blessed? >>

Certainly not a mitzvah in the formal sense of the word. However Rav
Melamed explains
that the chazzan (or someone in the congregation) calls out "cohanim" to
signify that we wish to accept the blessing and only then can the cohanim
begin
see
http://ph.yhb.org.il/02-20-07/

-- 
Eli Turkel
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> I thought that they blessed AM Yisrael, not the people in the minyan. 
> Therefore it would make no difference to you if you daven there or in 
> Monsey.

> Ben

The Am shebesadot iiuc doesn't include everyone-for example if one stood
in shul behind the cohanim, they are not included.

[Email #2. -micha]

>> On 06/23/2016 07:45 Does it turn on the machloket as to whether
>> the mitzvah is on the cohanim alone?

> Which machlokes?  Who holds that there is a mitzvah to be blessed?

> Zev

The Haflaah among others.
Listen here:   http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/858947
Rabbi Ezra Schwartz-Duchening for non kohanim

Kol tuv
Joel Rich

On 06/24/2016 05:17 AM, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
> I thought that they blessed AM Yisrael, not the people in the minyan.

But only those who are in front of them, not those behind them.  So I
suppose any kohen, on any day, is only blessing half of Am Yisrael.

-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis

On 6/24/2016 2:20 PM, Rich, Joel wrote:
> The Am shebesadot iiuc doesn't include everyone-for example if one
> stood in shul behind the cohanim, they are not included.

Because the people behind the cohenim are able to walk a couple of feet 
and choose not to whereas anyone else is considered anoos and therefore 
they are included in the bracha.

Ben

>> How would you analyze the amount of ?bother? you should go to in
>> Eretz Yisrael to attend a minyan where there are kohanim in order to
>> get birchat hakohanim? Differentiate between the mitzvah and the
>> benefit of the bracha. Does it turn on the machloket as to whether
>> the mitzvah is on the cohanim alone?

>Which machlokes?  Who holds that there is a mitzvah to be blessed?

     The Minchas Chinuch in Mitzva 378 quotes (at second hand) the Sefer
Chareidim that it is a mitzva on Yisreilim to be blessed by the kohanim.

EMT
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On 06/24/2016 01:17 PM, elazar teitz via Avodah wrote:
>>Which machlokes?  Who holds that there is a mitzvah to be blessed?
>
> The Minchas Chinuch in Mitzva 378 quotes (at second hand) the Sefer
> Chareidim that it is a mitzva on Yisreilim to be blessed by the
> kohanim.

Thank you.   According to this opinion should we be saying a bracha?
Surely we can't be yotzei with the kohanim's bracha, since they say
"asher kideshanu bikdushaso shel Aharon", and we were not.


-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis

In AhS yomi today, YD 240:34, RYME discusses the issur of listening to
a parent who tells you to violate the din. One cannot discuss achei
dokheh lav because the pasuq excludes such commands from a parent's
authority.

He ends: And memela, also in an issur derabbanan it is against the Torah.
For HQBH commanded not to veer from anything the chakhamim say.

So, those who say lo sasur is only an asmakhta for obeying a mitzvah
derabbanan, do they say kibud av does include an order to violate
a lave derabbanan? Or do they have a different sevara?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is equipped with such far-reaching vision,
mi...@aishdas.org        yet the smallest coin can obstruct his view.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 05:54:09PM +0300, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
: see YD 240 where it is a disagreement between the mechaber and Ramah. The
: Ramah paskens like the Tur, Mordechai, Rabbenu Tam and Haghaos Mordechai
: that one need honor a wicked father only if he does teshuva

See also AhS se'if 39, who says the same, but in more detail.

The Lekhem Mishnah lmits the Machloqes to while the father is alive,
saying that even the Rambam does not require KaVA of an evil parent
fter their petirah.

The Kesef Limits it to mishel ha'av, the son of an evil parent is
not chayav lehachzir lo mishelo.

And he believes Rashi explains the gemara in a manner consistent
with the Tur's position.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Strength does not come from winning. Your
mi...@aishdas.org        struggles develop your strength When you go
http://www.aishdas.org   through hardship and decide not to surrender,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      that is strength.        - Arnold Schwarzenegger

On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 02:12:35PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: Thank you.   According to this opinion should we be saying a bracha?
: Surely we can't be yotzei with the kohanim's bracha, since they say
: "asher kideshanu bikdushaso shel Aharon", and we were not.

Wouldn't the lack of ma'aseh, even speech, mean there is no mechayev
for a berakhah?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

On 06/24/2016 02:18 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 02:12:35PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> : Thank you.   According to this opinion should we be saying a bracha?
> : Surely we can't be yotzei with the kohanim's bracha, since they say
> : "asher kideshanu bikdushaso shel Aharon", and we were not.
>
> Wouldn't the lack of ma'aseh, even speech, mean there is no mechayev
> for a berakhah?

Then what does the mitzvah consist of, exactly?
In any case, what about shemias kol shofar?  Or lishmoa` megilah, for
women according to the BeHaG?


-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis

R' Zev Sero asked:
"Who holds that there is a mitzvah to be blessed?"

The Biur Halacha at the beginning of Siman 128 quotes from the Sefer
Charedim that there is a mitzva on the tzibur to be blessed by the kohanim.
The Haflaah in Kesubos 24b uses this Charedim to explain why it is
prohibited for a non-Kohen to go up to duchen, He says that if a Yisrael
goes up to duchess he is being mevatel his mitzva of receiving the beracha.
See also the Minchas Chinuch 378 who quotes this Charedim.
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> R' Meir Simcha in the Meshech Chochma on Shoftim has a fascinating
> explanation of the Rambam. The issur of lo tasur is an issur to rebel
> against the Chahamim, to not listen to them. Given that, we understand
> why sefeka d'rabbanan lekula because the act of doing the mitzva is not
> the main point, the point is listening to the chachamim, once it is a
> safek, there is no need to do the act because it is not so important .

R. Avraham pointed out that problem of the authority of the rabbis is
a basic problem and not just a difficulty with a Rambam and Ramban. The
better the source of their authority the more it looks like a de-oraisa.
The more one goes away from a de-oraisa the weaker their authority. His
major answer is that every time there is a dichotomy the only way out is
to find a third middle path. In general this replaces a binary decision
by a continuum path.

His standard example is the definition of bald. Someone who has one
hair is obviously bald. It is also obvious that adding one hair can't
change someone from bald to not bald. The conclusion by induction is
that every one is bald. The answer to the riddle that the dichotomy of
bald not-bald is not correct. Adding one more hair makes someone less
bald. It is a continuum and not a binary.

R Avraham (RMA) brought the Nesivos that also (or more correctly first)
states that there are two types of violating a derabbanan. One is to
rebel against the concept of derabbanan and that is lo tasur according to
the Rambam (he also hinted that in the next shiur the Ramban will agree
with the Rambam). OTOH if one violates the rabbanan rule "le-teavon"
then it is a strictly rabbinical rule.

Hence, Nesivot concludes that if one one violates a rabbanan "be-shogeg"
one does not need kaparah. In essence he has done nothing wrong.
The lo-tasur is only for rebellion and he has not rebelled. Note that
practically there can't be rebellion and safek.

In modern terms the netivot says that all rabbanan decrees are gavra
and not cheftza. Eating meat and milk (cooked together) the mixture is
prohibited. Eating chicken and milk cooked together there is nothing
wrong with the mixture. It is rebelling against the chachamim to eat it
on purpose (lo tasur) or rabbinic if eaten le-teavon.

RMA pointed out that this again comes back to the problem of why to
listen to the rabbis

Note that the Rogachover holds that every mitzvat aseh is only gavra
and not cheftza A second explanation was from the Rogatchover: The
prohibition from the Torah only demands that we accept the authority
of the rabbis. If someone accepts that the rabbis can make decrees but
decides that nevertheless he can't/won't listen then there is no Torah
prohibition. This leaves open the question how is it possible that one
can accept the authority of the rabbis but still disagree with them. It
seems to bring back the original question of what good is their authority
if one need not listen,

To explain this RMA brought a Tzlach. The Nodah BeYehuda states that
sevara yields a de-oraisa only if their is a connecting pasuk. Thus
killing someone to save oneself is a deoraisa based on sevara (everyones
blood is equal). However when sevara creates a new category then it is
only derabbanan. The classic example is berachot - eating without a bracha
is LIKE stealing. So the rabbis based on this sevara required berachot.
However, it is only a derabbanan since one is not actually stealing.
(answers a question of the Pnei Yehoshua). Similarly for something to
be a Torah law there has to be both a commandment and a content.

In order for something to be a de-oraisa it needs BOTH a source and
content. So violating shabbat is one prohibition even though there are
many pesukim since the content is the same. OTOH "lav she-be-chlalot"
has only one pasuk but many contents and so also there is no punishment.

According to Rambam anything no explicit in the Torah has no punishment
when learned from derashot. So the prohibition of "Lo Tasur" gives a
generalization that there is a commandment to listen to the rabbis. The
rabbis applied to this to various cases but this is no longer explicit
in the pasuk and so no longer a de-oraisa. This is different than "lifne
iver" where giving bad advice is an example of the pasuk and so from
the Torah.

In summary there are 3 types of derashot
1) examples not explicit in the pasuk - clasical example is neder. The
Torah says one can't violate one's neder. Hoever the individual person
decides the specific application
2) Asmachta (some meforshim) - just a help to memory.
Ritva argues that some asmachtot are really the intention of the pasuk.
However since it is only hinted it is a rabbanan and not a deoraisa
i.e. there is content but no commandment.
3) Things learned indirectly from the pasuk there is a sevara (content)
but no commandment.

Finally RMA argues that finding a third/middle path is the only way
out and so Ramban has to agree with Rambam. The arguments are more
misunderstandings and semantics.

Another example is Avelut. Rambam states explicitly that ivisiting the
avel or making the kallah happy rabbinic. He the quotes the pasuk of
"ve-ahavta le-reacha komecha" . This eems to be self-contradictory. The
answer is the same as for "Lo Tasur". There is content but no explicit
commandment and so it is rabbinic even though hinted in the pasuk. Someone
who "loves" (not romantic) the Kallah but doesnt make her happy fulfills
the Torah obligation but not the rabbinic one. Someone who makes her
happy but doent "love" her fulfils the rabbinic command but not the
Torah obligation.

RMA then hinted to a wider application to general philosophical questions
where one has observations and generalizations. How is it possible
to generate a physical law (eg Maxwell's equations) when all we have
are a finite number of observations. In other words are mathematical
descriptions of nature inherent in nature or man-made. De-raisa
is like observations we only have what is explicit. Derabbanan are
generalizations. In both cases we need to find a middle/continuum path

Eli Turkel

On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
> On 06/24/2016 02:18 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>> Wouldn't the lack of ma'aseh, even speech, mean there is no mechayev
>> for a berakhah?

> Then what does the mitzvah consist of, exactly?
> In any case, what about shemias kol shofar?  Or lishmoa` megilah, for
> women according to the BeHaG?

In the cases of megilla and shofar, hearing is required; a deaf person
is exempt, and one who is prevented from hearing because of noise is not
yotze.  For birkas kohanim, according to the Sefer Chareidim, I doubt that
there is any requirement other than the blessee's presence and awareness
that the bracha is being given.

EMT


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