Volume 34: Number 56
Mon, 16 May 2016
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Akiva Miller
Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 10:12:39 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Shiur for Kesem today
R' Micha Berger asked:
> I am wondering, how can we today be toleh bema'akholes? BH we live
> in a place and time where healthy people are not plagued with lice
> and whatnot, that this is a likely alternative explanation.
>
> Or do we say that when they were gozerin on kesamim, the gerzeirah
> didn't include a kesem equal to or smaller than a kegeris, and
> therefore we make no assumptions at all about where the kesem came
> from?
I've always figured on the second of these two. My reasoning is based on
the halachos of where the kesem was found.
If we are going to make logical estimates "about where the kesem came
from", then we shouldn't care about whether or not the cloth can be mekabel
tumah. Who cares about the size of the cloth, or the color of the cloth, or
the material of the cloth? But the system was set up such that if the cloth
is not m'kabel tumah, then the kesem can't be tamay either. And so too for
the size of the kesem.
I had a lot of trouble understanding - and even accepting - the above, but
when I realized that without hargasha everything becomes d'rabanan, it
began to make sense. (For comparison, I suppose one might compare it to
certain concepts in Eruvin, which might stretch credulity if hotzaah were a
melacha d'Oraisa. [Tzuras Hapesach: An area is called "enclosed" because it
is surrounded by doorless doorways. Puhleeze!] But since Eruvin only works
where hotzaah is d'rabanan, they pretty much had carte blanche to set it up
however they wanted.)
Akiva Miller
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Message: 2
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 16:25:05 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] how to 'fix' a mazer
<<RZS writes ...How do you know that? The Torah says your children from a
nochris are not yours, but where does it say that your children from a
shifcha are not yours?
You are claiming a tremendous chidush l'halacha - that these are actually
his kids. Do you have anyone who says this?
It w appear not, bc they are not mityaches acharav (as a proof - we see that
they are avodim, and not mamzers) >>
There is a major discussion if one has a child who is a mamzer whether he
has fulfilled the mtzvah of pru u-revu or not. Similarly is there a mitzva
for a mamazer to marry a mamzerut to have children
(see minchat chinuch, har tzvi, kovetz shiurim)
BTW I saw an opinion that if a mamzer marries a shifcha and has a child he
doesn't fulfil; pru u-revi but he does fulfill le-shevet yezarah
see a discussion by RAL on pru urevu vs leshevet yetzirah (Hebrew)
http://www.etzion.org.il/he/%D7%9E%D7%A6
%D7%95%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%A4%D7%A8%D7%95-%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%91%D7%95-%D7%95%D7%9E
%D7%A6%D7%95%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%A9%D6%B6%D7%91%D6%B6%D7%AA-%D7%90
--
Eli Turkel
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Message: 3
From: Akiva Miller
Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 09:43:49 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] how to 'fix' a mamzer
R' Mordechai Cohen asked:
<<< The kids are not related to him, and he did not fulfill pru u'revu thru
them (the kids are m'yayachais to the mother, and not to him) >>>
My understanding is that if a Jew has relations with a non-Jewess and the
resulting children convert to Judaism, he DOES fulfill p'ru uv'vu through
them. (Maybe that's only in the case of a non-Jewush man who converts
together with his children? I'm not sure.)
<<< He decides he wants to 'stay' with his shifcha ... The posuk calls his
shifcha and kids as 'ishti and banay' - why? >>>
No, it's not the *posuk* who refers to the shifcha and children that way.
The posuk is merely quoting the man. It is the man who referred to them
that way, and given his love for them, I'd expect nothing less. One might
argue that he wrong for feeling that love and/or for expressing it, but
that's irrelevant: He does feel that way, and he did verbalize it, and the
Torah is merely quoting him.
My second answer is more technical. Hebrew has no word for wife. His words
could just as easily be translated as "I love my woman", which I presume
you'll concede to be accurate. As far as "my children", well, he just
wasn't being very clear. He didn't mean "my halachic children", but merely
"my genetic children".
Akiva Miller
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Message: 4
From: Rabbi Meir G. Rabi
Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 01:43:44 +1000
Subject: [Avodah] Gebrochts - Flour on Matza - is it denatured, can it
It seems R Micha has erred by not recognising that the risk is NOT about
whether there is flour, of course there is flour - as the SAHaR says
'behold we see with our own eyes' that there is flour on the Matza
the risk is whether the flour that is certainly there on many Matzos - has
been toasted adequately to be denatured and prevented from becoming Chamets
when exposed to water.
Indeed R Micha says 'Efshar LeVareir!' it is possible to establish the
facts - and that is precisely what I am asking, because if there no flour
is detected on the Matza - there is no question and no source for Gebrochts.
Best,
Meir G. Rabi
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Message: 5
From: Zev Sero
Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 11:44:38 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Shiur for Kesem today
On 05/15/2016 10:12 AM, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> (For comparison, I suppose one might compare it to certain concepts
> in Eruvin, which might stretch credulity if hotzaah were a melacha
> d'Oraisa. [Tzuras Hapesach: An area is called "enclosed" because it
> is surrounded by doorless doorways. Puhleeze!] But since Eruvin only
> works where hotzaah is d'rabanan, they pretty much had carte blanche
> to set it up however they wanted.)
This is not true. Mid'oraisa tzuras hapesach works in a reshus horabim
de'oraisa. That one can't fix a r"hr simply by putting up four poles and
four strings is mid'rabanan.
--
Zev Sero Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name meaning merely by appending them to the two other
words `God can'. Nonsense remains nonsense, even
when we talk it about God. -- C S Lewis
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Message: 6
From: via Avodah
Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 14:45:08 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] how to 'fix' a mamzer
From: M Cohen via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
R Tarfon at the end of the 3rd chap of kiddushin gives an eitza for a
mamzer
who wants to 'purified' - to have relations w a shifcha which will produce
children avodim, and then free the children (who will then become regular
Jews)
Mordechai cohen
>>>>>
There is no "shifcha" today. But a mamzer can marry a non-Jewish woman and
have children with her, and later those children can convert to Judaism.
I'm not saying he is halachically allowed to marry a non-Jewish woman but
the fact is, if he does so, his children will not be mamzerim. Similarly a
kohen who is a challal can avoid having children who are challalim by
having children with a non-Jewish woman, and later they can convert and be
kosher Jews. True, a woman who's a convert can't marry a kohen so his daughters
won't be able to marry kohanim. But at least his children won't be cha
llalim, so they can marry most Jews, and the /children/ of converts can marry
anyone, so his grandchildren can marry anyone.
However my father z'l strongly disapproved of telling people such eitzos to
avoid messing up their kids. I suppose he felt it was tantamount to
telling a man that it's OK to sin because he can avoid the consequences of sin.
--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============
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Message: 7
From: Zev Sero
Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 19:59:15 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] how to 'fix' a mamzer
On 05/15/2016 02:45 PM, via Avodah wrote:
> However my father z'l strongly disapproved of telling people such
> eitzos to avoid messing up their kids. I suppose he felt it was
> tantamount to telling a man that it's OK to sin because he can avoid
> the consequences of sin.
That is the difference between the scenarios you describe and the one
we're discussing, a mamzer marrying a shifcha. Although that is usually
forbidden, Chazal specifically permitted it for a mamzer, so there's no
reason not to encourage him to do it.
--
Zev Sero Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name meaning merely by appending them to the two other
words `God can'. Nonsense remains nonsense, even
when we talk it about God. -- C S Lewis
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Message: 8
From: Lisa Liel
Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 11:32:10 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] how to 'fix' a mamzer
On 5/16/2016 2:59 AM, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> That is the difference between the scenarios you describe and the one
> we're discussing, a mamzer marrying a shifcha. Although that is usually
> forbidden, Chazal specifically permitted it for a mamzer, so there's no
> reason not to encourage him to do it.
Rabbi Tarfon wasn't the last word on it in the Gemara, so I don't think
you're correct about Chazal permitting it.
Lisa
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Message: 9
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 05:58:10 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Gebrochts - Flour on Matza - is it denatured,
On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 01:43:44AM +1000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
: Indeed R Micha says 'Efshar LeVareir!' it is possible to establish the
: facts - and that is precisely what I am asking, because if there no flour
: is detected on the Matza - there is no question and no source for Gebrochts.
... only because you're asking about the problem being prevalent enough
for gebrochts to be assur. Whereas I am arguing that by context, we know
the SAhR's "harbei" means prevalent enough to be worth a chumerah.
And that kind of frequency would require a broad survey. Not sure if
that qualifies as efshar levareir.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
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Message: 10
From: Marty Bluke
Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 14:57:37 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] how to 'fix' a mamzer
R' Zev Sero wrote regarding a shifcha:
"How do you know that? The Torah says your children from a nochris are not
yours, but where does it say that your children from a shifcha are not
yours?"
The same Gemara (kiddushin 68b) that says that a nochris's children are not
yours says that a shifchas children are hers not yours. The Gemara there
asks vlada k'mossa minalan and the Gemara answers with the pasuk haisha
v'yladeha teeyeh ladoneha. The Gemara then asks nochris minalan etc. and
answers with a different pasuk (lo tischaten bam)
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Message: 11
From: M Cohen
Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 09:18:18 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] how to 'fix' a mamzer
R' Micha - thanks for the m"makom - still have to look it up.
RMB also asked - Are you asking why a man might want to have children
other than his chiyuv to do so?
Ans. I am aware that a man can (and might want to) raise children not
his own. Ie adoption.
My question was that R Tarfon seems to imply that his eitza is more than
just adopting and raising children not his own.
I didn't (and still don't) understand why his eitza is better - they
are not mityaches to him in any way.
RZS's answer is not true.
BTW, thanks to Reb Google, see article on this subject (though it does not
extensively deal w/ my questions)
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/mamzerShifcha.pdf>
[Posted as part of the thread <http://j.mp/23USW62> or
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=M#MAMZ
ER%20MARRYING%20A%20SHIFCHAH>
-micha]
Mordechai Cohen
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Message: 12
From: Zev Sero
Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 13:41:42 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] how to 'fix' a mamzer
On 05/16/2016 04:32 AM, Lisa Liel wrote:
> Rabbi Tarfon wasn't the last word on it in the Gemara, so I don't
> think you're correct about Chazal permitting it.
Actually the last word on it in the Gemara is "Amar Rav Yehuda amar
Shmuel, halacha ker'bbi Tarfon.
The Rambam and Shulchan Aruch rule accordingly (http://uc2.e6.sl.pt
http://mechon-mamre.org/i/5115.htm#4), though Tosfos (on 68b d"h Vladah
Kamoha) seems to disagree.
On 05/16/2016 07:57 AM, Marty Bluke wrote:
> R' Zev Sero wrote regarding a shifcha:
>> "How do you know that? The Torah says your children from a nochris are not
>> yours, but where does it say that your children from a shifcha are not yours?"
> The same Gemara (kiddushin 68b) that says that a nochris's children
> are not yours says that a shifchas children are hers not yours. The
> Gemara there asks vlada k'mossa minalan and the Gemara answers with
> the pasuk haisha v'yladeha teeyeh ladoneha. The Gemara then asks
> nochris minalan etc. and answers with a different pasuk (lo tischaten
> bam)
The gemara there doesn't say that your children by a shifcha are not yours.
The gemara isn't concerned with whose children they are, it's concerned with
their status. It says that your children by a shifcha are avadim like her,
and its proof is from the explicit pasuk that they will be her owner's
property. QED. That doesn't preclude them being your children, e.g. to
exempt your wife from yibbum. (The Tosfos I cited above says they're not,
but it's explicitly discussing it from the rabbanan's POV, not from that
of R Tarfon, which is what we're discussing.)
But the proof that your children by a nochris are nochrim like her is from
the pasuk that says they are not your children. That pasuk doesn't *say*
that they're nochrim, but the gemara deduces that since they have no Jewish
parent what else could they be?
The pasuk itself is not concerned with their status, since the avera it
says they'll do is avoda zara, which is forbidden also to nochrim, and
thus if they were your children this would be a matter of concern to you.
(Your obligation of chinuch would surely apply to your non-Jewish children,
if it were possible for you to have any; you wouldn't have to teach them
not to eat treif or break shabbos, but surely you would have to teach them
not to serve avoda zara, and thus it should upset you that their mother
will teach them to serve it.) By saying that this is not something you
should be upset about, the pasuk is telling you that they are not your
children, and thus their idolatry and subsequent damnation is none of
your business.
On 05/16/2016 09:18 AM, M Cohen wrote:
> RZS answer is not true.
And your proof is?
--
Zev Sero Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name meaning merely by appending them to the two other
words `God can'. Nonsense remains nonsense, even
when we talk it about God. -- C S Lewis
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Message: 13
From: Marty Bluke
Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 22:14:05 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] how to 'fix' a mamzer
On Monday, May 16, 2016, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
> On 05/16/2016 04:32 AM, Lisa Liel wrote:
>> Rabbi Tarfon wasn't the last word on it in the Gemara, so I don't
>> think you're correct about Chazal permitting it.
> Actually the last word on it in the Gemara is "Amar Rav Yehuda amar
> Shmuel, halacha ker'bbi Tarfon.
> The Rambam and Shulchan Aruch rule accordingly (http://uc2.e6.sl.pt
> http://mechon-mamre.org/i/5115.htm#4), though Tosfos (on 68b d"h Vladah
> Kamoha) seems to disagree.
You are assuming that the Torah distinguishes between yichus and them being
your children. I don't think there is such a distinction. Yichus determines
whether they are your children or not. Since the child of a shifcha is an
eved they can't be related to you as a Jew can't be related to a non Jew.
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