Volume 34: Number 51
Sun, 08 May 2016
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: via Avodah
Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 16:53:36 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Rav Sharki on university students
From: Akiva Miller via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
I don't know if I've gone off topic or not. I guess my point has been
merely to illustrate that there's little or no difference between a world
where there are no Nazis, and a world where there are no birth defects.
Akiva Miller
>>>>>
I don't know how you can say that. Admittedly, the Creator apparently
wanted a world in which there are both Nazis /and/ birth defects, since that's
the world He created. But there is a HUGE difference between the two --
between the pain caused by evil people through their own free will, and the
suffering that occurs as the result of disease and other natural causes.
One thought experiment will illustrate the difference. Imagine a mother
whose child dies as the result of a birth defect. Let's even say the child
dies after a period of pain and suffering. Now imagine another mother
whose child dies because a Nazi snatched the child from her arms and killed the
child in some sadistic way, in front of the mother's eyes. Both mothers
suffer terrible pain and grief. But even if both children "only" suffered
the same amount of pain before dying, you can see that there would be a huge
difference between a world in which no disease would ever kill a child and
a world in which no Nazi would ever kill a child.
--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
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Message: 2
From: Rabbi Meir G. Rabi
Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 06:29:53 +1000
Subject: [Avodah] Gebrochts Understanding the Issue
The ShA HaRav writes
"as can be readily seen, many baked Matzos have a little flour on their surface
which is a consequence of the Matza dough not being thoroughly kneaded ...."
May I ask with all due respect - is this factually correct?
Furthermore, it is clear that the SAHaRav is NOT concerned about flour
WITHIN the Matza ONLY flour on the surface of the Matza
Are those who do not eat Gebrochts concerned about flour WITHIN the Matza?
Does any Posek other than the ShA HaRav assert that baked Matza has flour
on its surface? or within it?
Best,
Meir G. Rabi
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Message: 3
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 15:34:07 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] chumrah and kula
<<For every inheritance case that would be solved, we'd probably be
declaring someone else to be a mamzer if we accept DNA. Is it worth it? >>
Which is why no bet din accepts DNA for mamzer cases. Doesn't mean one
can't accept it in many other cases
--
Eli Turkel
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Message: 4
From: Arie Folger
Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 17:22:10 +0200
Subject: Re: [Avodah] chumra and kulah
On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 5:14 PM, Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As Rabbi Folger states we try and avoid mamzerut. The question is when
> there are no children but one cannot get a "get" for some reason.
> Do we leave the woman an agunah or do we rely on the psak of RMF
>
Every case is judged on its own. I was just an eid to a get of the sort,
where certain kullot in the berurei sheimot were accepted because it was
such a kind of get lechumra. In other situations, we may be quicker to
allow a kitvu uttenu for a civil marriage divorce. As I said, every case is
judged on its own.
--
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://rabbifolger.net/
* Koscheres Geld (Podcast)
<http://rabbifolger.net/2016/02/15/koscheres-geld-podcast/>
* Kennt die Existenz nur den Chaos? G?ttliches Vorsehen im J?dischen
Gedankengut (Podcast)
<http://rabbifolger.net/
2016/02/14/kennt-die-existenz-nur-den-chaos-gttliches-vorsehen-im-judischen
-gedankengut-podcast/>
* Halacha zum Wochenabschnitt: Baruch Hu uWaruch Schemo
<http://rabbifolger.net/2016/02/11/halacha-zum-wochenabs
chnitt-baruch-hu-uwaruch-schemo/>
* Is there Order to the World? Providence in Jewish Thought
<http://rabbifolger.net/2016/02/09/is-there-order-to
-the-world-providence-in-jewish-thought/>
* What is Modern Orthodoxy (from a radio segment)
<http://rabbifolger.net/2016/02/08/what-is-modern-orthodoxy-fro
m-a-radio-segment/>
<http://rabbifolger.net/2016/01/28/wir-missionieren-nicht-aber-warum-
nicht/>
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Message: 5
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 18:42:17 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] chumrot
In light of the comments of Rabbi Folger and others let me restate my
opinion of chumrot.
There are several levels of chumrot and kulot
1) The chumrah is personal and doesn't affect anyone else - perfectly OK
but one shouldn't gloat or look down on those who don't accept the chumra
2) At the other extreme are things like monetary manners where every chumra
for one side is a kula for the other side
3) For things in between one has to compare the chumra to the "price" being
paid
So for kitniyot - the prohibition is relatively mild but OTOH doing
without the specific kitniyot is not a major deal either (in most cases)
I personally get annoyed at husbands that won't carry (or push the
carriage) even with an eruv but the wife does everything. I am not sure how
much the women really volunteer. In any case the hardship is relatively
mild (again in most cases)
The harder cases are where the prohibition is more severe but the effects
are more severe
Examples from before include shabbat problems that might prevent one from
leaving home every shabbat and ruining on a long term basis
oneg shabbat. As Rabbi Folger points out various cases of gittin. Also
cases involving DNA or other forms of controversial evidence.
The main point R Avraham was making is that rabbis who take a
"conservative: stance are not always being machmir since the effect on
others may be severe. At times the more innovative approach may be the real
conservative way. i.e. it saves the principle of the halacha rather than
just some formality which is no longer relevant.
--
Eli Turkel
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Message: 6
From: Arie Folger
Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 16:59:48 +0200
Subject: Re: [Avodah] chumra and kulah
RET wrote:
> 3) I had a discussion with a rabbi recently about civil marriages. He felt
> that in many cases one should be machmir to require a get. I pointed out
> that a consequence of such a chumra is to declare many people mamzerim
when
> they are products of a second civil marriage without a get. This affects
> many old Russian familes and also the question of Jewishness of anusim
etc.
Actually, that simply doesn't reflect the most widespread position on civil
marriage, which in reality is that we seek a get even in cases of divorcing
couples that had not had chupa vekiddushin, but, and here is the key, but
we do not seek such a get in cases where it would imply mamzerut. Of
course, the rule isn't applied entirely directly. Rather, every single case
is separately analyzed on its own merits. But we do our utmost to avoid
mamzerut and that does not stand in contradiction with seeking a proper get
in cases of most divorcing civil marriage only couples.
--
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://rabbifolger.net/
* Koscheres Geld (Podcast)
<http://rabbifolger.net/2016/02/15/koscheres-geld-podcast/>
* Kennt die Existenz nur den Chaos? G?ttliches Vorsehen im J?dischen
Gedankengut (Podcast)
<http://rabbifolger.net/
2016/02/14/kennt-die-existenz-nur-den-chaos-gttliches-vorsehen-im-judischen
-gedankengut-podcast/>
* Halacha zum Wochenabschnitt: Baruch Hu uWaruch Schemo
<http://rabbifolger.net/2016/02/11/halacha-zum-wochenabs
chnitt-baruch-hu-uwaruch-schemo/>
* Is there Order to the World? Providence in Jewish Thought
<http://rabbifolger.net/2016/02/09/is-there-order-to
-the-world-providence-in-jewish-thought/>
* What is Modern Orthodoxy (from a radio segment)
<http://rabbifolger.net/2016/02/08/what-is-modern-orthodoxy-fro
m-a-radio-segment/>
<http://rabbifolger.net/2016/01/28/wir-missionieren-nicht-aber-warum-
nicht/>
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Message: 7
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 18:14:02 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] chumra and kulah
>
> <<Actually, that simply doesn't reflect the most widespread position on
> civil marriage, which in reality is that we seek a get even in cases of
> divorcing couples that had not had chupa vekiddushin, but, and here is the
> key, but we do not seek such a get in cases where it would imply mamzerut.
> Of course, the rule isn't applied entirely directly. Rather, every single
> case is separately analyzed on its own merits. But we do our utmost to
> avoid mamzerut and that does not stand in contradiction with seeking a
> proper get in cases of most divorcing civil marriage only couples.
> --
> Arie Folger, >>
>
chumrot that don't have side effects are fine. As Rabbi Folger states we
try and avoid mamzerut. The question is when there are no children but one
cannot get a "get" for some reason.
Do we leave the woman an agunah or do we rely on the psak of RMF
--
Eli Turkel
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Message: 8
From: Micha Berger
Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 19:29:27 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Schlissel Challah
Since everyone has to have a schlissel chalah post...
Really I think it is about sources of yeast right after Pesach. There
was no starter dough, so people would use beer foam. Beer foam yeast is
too acrive for good dough. Fortunately, iron slows down yeast action. A
key is a small convenient piece of iron to throw into the mix.
But it is common for minhagim to be born from inventing reasons for
things people already do. In this case...
It relates to the key of rain and finances, described in Taanis 2, one of
the three (or two of the four) keys that Hashem never delegates. If so,
it is a reminder just as the wheat comes in, and. in the lands Ashkenazim
were living in too. (The fresh grass which becomes a milk abundance just
on time for Shavuos and Wittesmontag.) A reminder from Whom the spring
wealth comes. And to thank Him accordingly, rather than to take credit.
If so, ironically (for the naysayers), the custom is all about how wealth
comes directly from G-d, not via angels, spiritual mechanisms, or tricks.
Do you have a problem with dipping an apple in honey and other such
simanei milsa of Rosh haShanah? Those too are symbols.
The problem isn't with schlissel chalah. If people observed the custom
for the kinds of reasons listed in this post, there would be nothing
to object to. The problem I have is that it seems to have caught on
beyond the original community because of people having magical thinking,
trying to get HQBH to give them their wealth through segulah instead of
(rather as inspiration for) the hard and long work of earning reward
for being a better Jew.
:-)BBii!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 13th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 1 week and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Yesod sheb'Gevurah: To what extent is judgment
Fax: (270) 514-1507 necessary for a good relationship?
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Message: 9
From: Simon Montagu
Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 00:26:46 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] Salted butter?
I heard over Shabbat that some people have a chumra never to eat salted
butter, but no details why. Has anybody else heard about this and know what
the hashash is? I couldn't find anything on line (except to note from
Tenuva's site that they have unsalted butter with both rabbanut and
mehadrin hashgaha, but salted butter only with rabbanut).
Shavua Tov, Hodesh Tov!
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Message: 10
From: Zev Sero
Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 22:49:31 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Salted butter?
On 05/07/2016 05:26 PM, Simon Montagu via Avodah wrote:
> I heard over Shabbat that some people have a chumra never to eat
> salted butter, but no details why. Has anybody else heard about this
> and know what the hashash is? I couldn't find anything on line (except
> to note from Tenuva's site that they have unsalted butter with both
> rabbanut and mehadrin hashgaha, but salted butter only with rabbanut).
I am looking at a block of Tenuva salted butter, which bears the mehadrin
hechsher of Tenuva's own rabbi, R Weitman, and also the hechsherim of the
OU and Chug Chasam Sofer. I assume Chug Chasam Sofer is a mehadrin-only
hechsher.
Tenuvah unsalted butter is available in 10g, 100g, and 200g packages
with normal hechsher, because it contains shabbat milk. It's also
available in 10g and 200g with the mehadrin hechsher, and also in 10g
and 100g with the hechsher of Badatz Edah Hacharedit.
http://www.kashrut-tnuva.co.il/milk.php?actions=show&;id=581
Salted butter seems to be available in Israel only in 200g blocks, and
only with normal hechsher, because of the use of shabbat milk.
http://www.kashrut-tnuva.co.il/milk.php?actions=show&;id=582
However the butter sold in the USA, both salted and not, doesn't seem to
have this problem.
http://www.tnuvausa.com/fresh-from-the-dairy/try-something-fresh
/salted-butter
http://www.tnuvausa.com/fresh-from-the-dairy/try-something-fresh/butter
--
Zev Sero Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name meaning merely by appending them to the two other
words `God can'. Nonsense remains nonsense, even
when we talk it about God. -- C S Lewis
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Message: 11
From: Simon Montagu
Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 07:35:19 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Salted butter?
On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 6:26 AM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
> Tenuvah unsalted butter is available in 10g, 100g, and 200g packages
> with normal hechsher, because it contains shabbat milk...
>
> Salted butter seems to be available in Israel only in 200g blocks, and
> only with normal hechsher, because of the use of shabbat milk...
>
> However the butter sold in the USA, both salted and not, doesn't seem to
> have this problem....
Thanks for all the info, but I think the question is still open: *why*
doesn't Tenuva sell salted butter made without shabbat milk in Israel? In
other words, what is cause here and what is effect? Is there some reason
why people who only eat Badatz don't eat salted butter anyway, so there's
no point in selling it here?
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Message: 12
From: Zev Sero
Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 01:00:49 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Salted butter?
On 05/08/2016 12:35 AM, Simon Montagu wrote:
>
> Thanks for all the info, but I think the question is still open: *why*
> doesn't Tenuva sell salted butter made without shabbat milk in Israel?
> In other words, what is cause here and what is effect? Is there some
> reason why people who only eat Badatz don't eat salted butter anyway,
> so there's no point in selling it here?
Well, I don't see how it can be a halachic issue, since they do sell it
with the mehadrin hechsher in the USA, to consumers whose kashrut standards
are presumably the same those of Israeli mehadrin consumers. Nor, given
the size and internal diversity of the Israeli mehadrin market, and its
overlap with the USA one, can it plausibly be attributed to a cultural
difference.
What I'd really like to know is why the salted butter isn't available
in 100g packs, in either country.
--
Zev Sero Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name meaning merely by appending them to the two other
words `God can'. Nonsense remains nonsense, even
when we talk it about God. -- C S Lewis
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