Volume 34: Number 40
Wed, 13 Apr 2016
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 11:52:03 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Rav Sharki on university students
On Sat, Apr 09, 2016 at 11:36:04PM IDT, R Ben Waxman posted
to Areivim:
: https://twitter.com/benwaxman/status/718898333075566592
: Translation of something Rav Sharki said in an article on dati
: students attending university:
: What should a student do when people ask him questions on emunah and
: he doesn't have an answer?
: RS: Teach your tongue to say "I don't know". That's fine. Afterwards
: he needs to search for the answer.
: And if he has questions about which he can't find an answer?
: RS: Then he should be a kofer, the Rav answered simply. If a student
: concludes that the Torah isn't true, why should he remain a
: believer?
This has to be a mistranslation.
After all, being unable to find an answer is FAR short of proving no
answer exists.
Simplest example, in https://youtu.be/9pRzyioUKp0 Dr Sally Haslanger
(of MIT) "proves" that an Omniscient Omnipotent Omnibenevolent (OOO)
G-d could not exist because an OOO Being could prevent all evil and
tragedy.
1. If God exists, then he/she/it would be OOO
2. If an OOO being exists, then there would be no evil
3. God exists
First proposal. Therefore
4. There is no evil
But observation will tell you:
5. There is evil
We can't have a contradiction, so one of our givens must be false.
(1) is true by definition -- G-d is by definition OOO
(2) is not really an assumption, but a logical conclusion. (It hides a
prior formal proof.) A G-d who would know about any evil, doesn't want evil
to exist and can do anything would have eliminated that evil.
So really only 3 & 5 are plausible open to denial: either there is no G-d,
or there is no evil.
As I posted there:
Theists consistently reject #2 "If an OOO Being exists, there would
be no evil." That is given short shrift, and therefore the real
argument is really swept under the rug.
A world in which the OOO Being provides all the good might be worse
than a world in which the OOO Being wants to provide others the
opportunity to be provides of good themselves. The assumption is
that a world of passive recipients is better (more good) than a
world of contributors.
This argument is kind of like saying that:
1- A parent has the ability to see more obvious sources of pain in
advance and help a child avoid them.
2- A good parent would try to do so. Yet
3- Good parents allow their toddlers to fall on their bums when
learning to walk -- despite seeing it coming.
Therefore,
4- there are no good parents.
The answer is -- #2 is false. There are better goods than preventing
all pain.
But notice I didn't answer the question of theodicy, tzadiq vera lo.
Arguably the question is unanswerable to humans.
(Admittedly there are O Jews who deny #5, and assert that tragedy is an
illusion. My argument is more that the best universe is one that has the
lesser evil, that a paradox in the human condition makes a world with
no tragedy itself imperfect. The question of the reality of evil is a
tangent worth exploring, but not to go even further afield than my point.)
R' Sherky is NOT possibly arguing we should therefore accept Prof
Haslanger's argument, though.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
PS: While RUS's name appears around the web both as "Sharky" and "Sherky",
I'm going with the evidence of <http://ravsherki.org>.
--
Micha Berger None of us will leave this place alive.
mi...@aishdas.org All that is left to us is
http://www.aishdas.org to be as human as possible while we are here.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Anonymous MD, while a Nazi prisoner
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Message: 2
From: saul newman
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 16:21:41 -0700
Subject: [Avodah] Pesach minhag
I learned recently that some in chabad have a minhag not to eat ka'arah
foods at the seder after ritual use. Eg. No romaine salad, no chrain on
fish. I wonder if any other groups have such a minhag , a nd what might be
the origin of such a custom.
2nd question. In re nuts on pesach , It seems all the major agencies
cite that any additive free whole nuts are ok without special cert. (
pecans excepted) . However the detroit vaad recommends assuring the nuts
are paked in a hametz free facility. This is NOT noted by OU, CRChic, etc.
i wonder if this would be an economic hardship that the non haredim lidvar
hashem would hold to. Interestingly the costco kirkland nuts remark that
they maybe packed in a place w wheat, soy ,etc...
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Message: 3
From: Zev Sero
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 21:59:02 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Pesach minhag
On 04/11/2016 07:21 PM, saul newman via Avodah wrote:
> I learned recently that some in chabad have a minhag not to eat
> ka'arah foods at the seder after ritual use. Eg. No romaine salad,
> no chrain on fish
Not *after* the seder, but *before*, i.e. on Erev Pesach and the first
day. Of course it's impossible to avoid matzah and wine on the first
day, but there is at least some idea of minimising their consumption,
so they can be "lete'avon" at the second seder.
Of course one may ask why maror should be "lete'avon", since that seems
to contradict its purpose, and why charoses or its ingredients should be
"lete'avon", since one is davka supposed *not* to taste them on the maror.
--
Zev Sero All around myself I will wave the green willow
z...@sero.name The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
I'll explain it to you".
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Message: 4
From: Zev Sero
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 11:18:44 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Pesach minhag
On 04/11/2016 09:59 PM, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 04/11/2016 07:21 PM, saul newman via Avodah wrote:
>> I learned recently that some in chabad have a minhag not to eat
>> ka'arah foods at the seder after ritual use. Eg. No romaine salad,
>> no chrain on fish
http://chabadlibrary.org/books/chasidim/otzar/4/14/39.htm
Note that although this does include all the ingredients of charoses,
it does not include eggs, or the greens that might be used for karpas,
contrary to the sources I will cite later.
> Not *after* the seder, but *before*, i.e. on Erev Pesach and the first
> day. Of course it's impossible to avoid matzah and wine on the first
> day, but there is at least some idea of minimising their consumption,
> so they can be "lete'avon" at the second seder.
>
> Of course one may ask why maror should be "lete'avon", since that seems
> to contradict its purpose, and why charoses or its ingredients should be
> "lete'avon", since one is davka supposed *not* to taste them on the maror.
The minhag not to eat maror before the seder goes back at least to the
Rashba and Rashi. Although the Bet Yosef dismisses it, the Rama cites
it, and it appears to be common in many communities, both Ashkenazi and
Sefardi.
The BY's question is answered by many, saying that even in the case of
matzah "teavon" in this context means novelty, and the pleasure that
comes from that, not an actual desire for the taste of the food, so it
doesn't matter whether the food tastes good or bad, or isn't even tasted
at all.
See <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/machzorVenice1568.pdf#page=2>
under "shulchan orech", that the Ashkenazi custom is not to eat even
whole eggs at the first seder, but rather to eat only beaten eggs, which
is probably the origin of the common minhag to eat the egg mashed up in
salt-water as a "soup".
See also <http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1402&;pgnum=37>
who says it's the common minhag of sefardim not to eat lettuce or
greens, beyond the requirements, for a day before each seder,
including at the first seder.
--
Zev Sero All around myself I will wave the green willow
z...@sero.name The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
I'll explain it to you".
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Message: 5
From: David Wacholder
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 17:28:24 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Cannot taste the bitterness
Cannot taste the bitterness
1. "Filled me with bitter herbs - Hisbiaani bMrorim - hirvani Laana -
sated of bitter" - Midrash Eichah in Psicha and on the Passuk - compares
the Exodus of Mitzrayim to the Exile after the First Temple was destroyed.
2. Apparently the bitter taste of these vegetables was familiar to all.
3. The son asks - why tonight only bitter [kulo maror]. He just ate
bitter herbs, and he wants to know why no sweet herbs were offered after
kiddush.
4. The Mishnah implies that Maror was eaten right after Kiddush. A
simple person might prefer to start off with Maror ASAP. Someone may have
stolen the Karpas. Those who pursue radishes for Karpas may prefer it as a
secondary variety of Maror, reminding us not to consider this the REAL
maror, which can only be eaten with the Matzah, in advance of next year's
Korban Pesach.
5. What if one ate the Karpas leaning - bhesseiba? That would explain
the child's train of thought - you eat bitter herbs - for slavery and you
ate them leaning? Sorry - I have no source yet for that. When Matza was
just unrisen Pita bread, and they held a practice session for the Korban in
the Mikdash, they likely ate only fire roasted lamb like the esteemed
Thaddeus of Rome.
6. Apologies - why eat this possibly infested bitter herbs, requiring
dipping into vinegar or sharp charoseth, just call in Rabbi Vaya to check
it, or alternatively? take it off the menu, finding some other food for
appetizer.
7. skip the appetizer. Renal patients who cannot drink begin with
Kiddush on Matzah, which some would much prefer. The Magid would be after
the meal had initialized.
8. Lately I checked two heads of Romaine lettuce. When I sample some
leaves, no bitterness was to be found, just a very mild sweetness. in fact
the Pri Chadash in back of SA Orach Chaim - openly advocates that totally
sweet lettuce - sans bitterness - is perfectly acceptable! To recap, the
Mishnah lists five grain varieties for Matzah, which are exclusive. It then
lists 5 varieties for Maror, but even the Amoraim debated what to buy. Rav
Huna Bar abba ? sought Maror - the bitterest herb eponymous with
bitterness, as the Mehadrin would seek. Rava chided him - Chas Rachmana
Alan - Hashem had consideration for us and prefers Chassa (pun - means
lettuce) which has some sweetness.
9. I take this metaphorically - Hashem is always keeping the balance of
sweetness and bittterness in the fortunes of the Jerwish People. Fixating
on bitterness can lead to bad results.
10. The Pri Chadash quotes the famous Aruch (of Rome, a century before
Rashi, disciple perhaps of Rabeinu Chananeil) on Charchavina, one of the 5
species of the Mishna, defined generically - "one sort of bitter herbs".
11. The Yerushalmi is quoted as debating whether Sweet Chassa is validly
Maror; bitter Chassa is certainly valid. Are these species which will at
some time later become bitter? Or must they be bitter even now as the 4
sons taste it ?
12. Is Maror a specific species exact type of plant? Ateres Tzvi
(margin of OC 473) and Elya Rabba combine to say there is a family called
Lettuga - lettuces. That helps immensely - as the leading species candidate
is "bitter lettuce" - Hebrew Chassa Matzpen - has spine of bumps on its
leaf, and is a glorified dandelion! My neighbor the botanist has no idea
where to find it but he offered me some fresh horseradish leaves.
Horseradish relates to the cabbage family - including endives, which get
some mention.
13. Kale is related to the cabbages, as is horseradish. See Chochmas
Shlomo - ibid in the margin - eloquently defending a sfeik sfeika - double
doubt - justifying any bitter tasting herb.
14. My problem is - the winds of the discussion imply palpable
bitterness on the tongue, not just associated projection. My father's tears
would flow as he ground his horseradish every year. The Chochmas Shlomo,
Rav Shlomo Kluger, seems to have the high road of directness here.
Rambamists can see that the examples of foods barely edible - which barely
are considered normal foods - in Shvisas Asor - are these very vegetables -
Chizrin.
15. The famous Rav Chaim Berlin, son of the Netziv, apparently got
medical advice not to eat horseradish, and sought grounds to absolve his
Neder. He sent a letter to his father the Netziv whether he should continue
to eat Khrein. Netziv - as predictable - answers - use Sallatin - lettuce -
like the common practice, and also the zayis olive size is very small.
[Meromei Sadeh].
16. In OC 473 the Lvush and Elya Rabba - praise to the publishers of the
new Levush set - discuss Maror, and Ateres Tzvi explains that any lettuce
is fine, as long as it is bitter.
17. Biologically chickory and lettuce are very close. If even the
cabbages - the latin name braccidae are also included in Maror, then
perhaps both kale in its beauty and varieties are included, even perhaps
arugula.
18. Perhaps I will make the bracha on kale, then arugula, then Romaine,
then horseradish for mimetic imitation of my father.
19. For me - no more sweet or tasteless Maror, I cannot make it bitter
anymore.
20. See also Kovetz - in back of the old Rambams. See Aruch al Hashas
who has in kilayim and in other places diagrams and exact species names for
all the candidates mentioned in the mishnayos. There is an alphabetical
index in the last volume.
21. Identification of Chizrin with Chazeres is no sure thing. Professor
Felix has a sefer called haChaklaut..... which explains from a farmer's
point of view what it means that a crop thrives in the shade.
22. This is actually a call for help! I imagine most people deal with
these questions annually. Please - any opinion or information will be
helpful to me.
23.
David Wacholder <dwachol...@gmail.com>
5:15 PM (2 minutes ago)
Email: dwachol...@gmail.com
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Message: 6
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 18:30:02 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Cannot taste the bitterness
On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 05:28:24PM -0400, David Wacholder via Avodah wrote:
: Cannot taste the bitterness
: 3. The son asks - why tonight only bitter [kulo maror]. He just ate
: bitter herbs, and he wants to know why no sweet herbs were offered after
: kiddush.
: 4. The Mishnah implies that Maror was eaten right after Kiddush...
Matzah too? And the qorban Pesach?
Or, the mishnah implies that there was no fixed hagafah yet -- as we
see from our Magid appearing as a collection of statements made in
machloqes. No tanna actually says that we should say all of our Maggid;
it's a follow everyone amalgamation.
In an unscripted seder (is it a seder if the script didn't exist yet? how
mesudar was is?) the son could have asked his questions at any point.
And not even necessarily 4 in a row.
Apparantly the Mah Nishtanah follows Hillel, or otherwise it is weird that
matzah would come before marror. If, how ever, the child saw both at the
same time, the sequence in the mishnah is not temporal.
: When Matza was
: just unrisen Pita bread, and they held a practice session for the Korban in
: the Mikdash, they likely ate only fire roasted lamb like the esteemed
: Thaddeus of Rome.
Was? My softmatza.com order is due tomorrow. Ashkenazim probably stopped
only a century to a few centuries ago -- the Rama's "no thicker than a
tefach" isn't describing a brick. Teeth can only do so much!
: 6. Apologies - why eat this possibly infested bitter herbs, requiring
: dipping into vinegar or sharp charoseth...
I know there is a machloqes about what kappa is, including some kind
of worm, Rashi and Rashbam say it's something in / or about the sap.
The wild lettuce in Israel, Lactuca serriola, "prickly lettuce" (wiki:
<http://j.mp/1YsoVbL>). It is the closest wild relative of cultivated
lettuce (Lactuca sativa). The plant is named Lactuca from the same root
as "lactose", and is in the dandelion tribe of the daisy family -- a
milkweed. Prickly lettuce has soporific properties, milder than opium.
It is also a mild diuretic. Vinegar (or any other acid) will neutralize
the alkaloids in the milky sap.
So, given Rashi, I would assume that's what kappa is about.
...
: 11. The Yerushalmi is quoted as debating whether Sweet Chassa is validly
: Maror; bitter Chassa is certainly valid. Are these species which will at
: some time later become bitter? Or must they be bitter even now as the 4
: sons taste it ?
To clarify: that's the Y-mi's question that gets two answers, not a
question on the Y-mi's debate.
...
: 13. Kale is related to the cabbages, as is horseradish. See Chochmas
: Shlomo - ibid in the margin - eloquently defending a sfeik sfeika - double
: doubt - justifying any bitter tasting herb.
As per the above, dandelions may be our closest option. Look at the picture
on wikipedia -- similar leaves and flowers, although the plant is far
taller and thicker than any dandelion I've seen.
As you note -- also related: chicory.
Thus reinforcing the idea -- a chiddush to those of us who grew up on
horseradish -- that maror is bitter, not "burning hot".
And you can abandon chasah and eat endive, which is indeed bitter.
: 14. My problem is - the winds of the discussion imply palpable
: bitterness on the tongue, not just associated projection...
Except for the other opinion in the Y-mi, which makes it clear that the
point is the projection.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger For those with faith there are no questions.
mi...@aishdas.org For those who lack faith there are no answers.
http://www.aishdas.org - Rav Yaakov of Radzimin
Fax: (270) 514-1507
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Message: 7
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 18:30:02 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Cannot taste the bitterness
On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 05:28:24PM -0400, David Wacholder via Avodah wrote:
: Cannot taste the bitterness
: 3. The son asks - why tonight only bitter [kulo maror]. He just ate
: bitter herbs, and he wants to know why no sweet herbs were offered after
: kiddush.
: 4. The Mishnah implies that Maror was eaten right after Kiddush...
Matzah too? And the qorban Pesach?
Or, the mishnah implies that there was no fixed hagafah yet -- as we
see from our Magid appearing as a collection of statements made in
machloqes. No tanna actually says that we should say all of our Maggid;
it's a follow everyone amalgamation.
In an unscripted seder (is it a seder if the script didn't exist yet? how
mesudar was is?) the son could have asked his questions at any point.
And not even necessarily 4 in a row.
Apparantly the Mah Nishtanah follows Hillel, or otherwise it is weird that
matzah would come before marror. If, how ever, the child saw both at the
same time, the sequence in the mishnah is not temporal.
: When Matza was
: just unrisen Pita bread, and they held a practice session for the Korban in
: the Mikdash, they likely ate only fire roasted lamb like the esteemed
: Thaddeus of Rome.
Was? My softmatza.com order is due tomorrow. Ashkenazim probably stopped
only a century to a few centuries ago -- the Rama's "no thicker than a
tefach" isn't describing a brick. Teeth can only do so much!
: 6. Apologies - why eat this possibly infested bitter herbs, requiring
: dipping into vinegar or sharp charoseth...
I know there is a machloqes about what kappa is, including some kind
of worm, Rashi and Rashbam say it's something in / or about the sap.
The wild lettuce in Israel, Lactuca serriola, "prickly lettuce" (wiki:
<http://j.mp/1YsoVbL>). It is the closest wild relative of cultivated
lettuce (Lactuca sativa). The plant is named Lactuca from the same root
as "lactose", and is in the dandelion tribe of the daisy family -- a
milkweed. Prickly lettuce has soporific properties, milder than opium.
It is also a mild diuretic. Vinegar (or any other acid) will neutralize
the alkaloids in the milky sap.
So, given Rashi, I would assume that's what kappa is about.
...
: 11. The Yerushalmi is quoted as debating whether Sweet Chassa is validly
: Maror; bitter Chassa is certainly valid. Are these species which will at
: some time later become bitter? Or must they be bitter even now as the 4
: sons taste it ?
To clarify: that's the Y-mi's question that gets two answers, not a
question on the Y-mi's debate.
...
: 13. Kale is related to the cabbages, as is horseradish. See Chochmas
: Shlomo - ibid in the margin - eloquently defending a sfeik sfeika - double
: doubt - justifying any bitter tasting herb.
As per the above, dandelions may be our closest option. Look at the picture
on wikipedia -- similar leaves and flowers, although the plant is far
taller and thicker than any dandelion I've seen.
As you note -- also related: chicory.
Thus reinforcing the idea -- a chiddush to those of us who grew up on
horseradish -- that maror is bitter, not "burning hot".
And you can abandon chasah and eat endive, which is indeed bitter.
: 14. My problem is - the winds of the discussion imply palpable
: bitterness on the tongue, not just associated projection...
Except for the other opinion in the Y-mi, which makes it clear that the
point is the projection.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger For those with faith there are no questions.
mi...@aishdas.org For those who lack faith there are no answers.
http://www.aishdas.org - Rav Yaakov of Radzimin
Fax: (270) 514-1507
Go to top.
Message: 8
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 12:07:53 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] The Quinoa - Kitniyos Conundrum
Interestingly, the question that seems to be utmost on people's minds
this Erev Pesach is not about chametz or even cleaning properly. No,
in 2016 the
Interestingly, the question that seems to be utmost on people's minds
this Erev Pesach is not about chametz or even cleaning properly. No,
in 2016 the biggest issue still seems to be whether quinoa is
considered Kitniyos and whether Ashkenazim can eat it on Pesach. In
fact, the world's largest hashgacha recently reversed their long
standing position...
To find out more, read the full article
"<http://sable.madmimi.com/click?id=10500.25603.261.1.41f44a
8d0f537403a9c56c8b0bae22cb>Insights
Into Halacha: The Quinoa - Kitniyos Conundrum".
I welcome your questions or comments by email. For all of the Mareh
Mekomos / sources, just ask.
Rabbi Spitz recently appeared on the 'Kashrus On the Air' radio show,
discussing Quinoa and Kitniyos issues. To hear a recording of the
show please click here: Rabbi Spitz recently appeared on the 'Kashrus
On the Air' radio show, discussing Quinoa and Kitniyos issues. To
hear a recording of the show please click here:
<http://sable.madmimi.com/click?id=10500.25603.262.1.bfcd91
12adf11bc580f8309cafe7fe36>https://soundcloud.com/jroot-radio/yosef-wikler-
apr-07?in=jroot-radio/sets/kashrus-on-the-air.
"<http://sable.madmimi.com/click?id=10500.25603.263.1.3b8b14
cabac791b5cf4ea5a892a0ac2f>Insights
Into Halacha" is a weekly series of contemporary Halacha articles for
Ohr Somayach. If you enjoyed the article, please share it with
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kol tuv and Good Shabbos,
Y. Spitz
Yerushalayim
<mailto:ysp...@ohr.edu>ysp...@ohr.edu
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Message: 9
From: Saul Guberman
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 16:16:31 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The Quinoa - Kitniyos Conundrum
On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> Interestingly, the question that seems to be utmost on people's minds
> this Erev Pesach is not about chametz or even cleaning properly. No, in
> 2016 the biggest issue still seems to be whether quinoa is considered
> Kitniyos and whether Ashkenazim can eat it on Pesach. In fact, the world's
> largest hashgacha recently reversed their long standing position...
This is last years info. The link is to an article from 5775. The OU &
Star-K are still certifying quinoa, as they did last year.
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