Avodah Mailing List

Volume 33: Number 145

Wed, 18 Nov 2015

• 1. Lessons From Jacob and Esau (Prof. Levine)
• 2. Re: Rav Schwab on Chillul Hashem (Marty Bluke)
• 3. names (Eli Turkel)
• 4. Ethics independent of the Torah (was Re: Rav Schwab on Chillul Hashem) (Lisa Liel)
• 5. Re: names (Lisa Liel)
• 6. Re: names (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: Name and Reputation (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Changing Nusach heTefilah (Micha Berger)
• 9. Ben PeKuAh - now a reality (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 10. changing nusach hatefile (Eli Turkel)
• 11. Re: changing nusach hatefile (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: changing nusach hatefile (Zev Sero)
• 13. Refusing the amud (Micha Berger)
• 14. R Zilberstein (Eli Turkel)
• 15. Re: changing nusach hatefile (Eli Turkel)
• 16. Re: changing nusach hatefile (Micha Berger)

This essay by RSRH at 
<http://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/lessons_jacob_esau_col_vii.p
df>Lessons 
 From Jacob and Esau  is well worth a read by all parents.

YL
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R' Zev Sero wrote:
"Any claim that some moral imperative exists that the Torah does not
mention or seem to hold is by definition a contradiction to the Torah."

It is not so simple. Please see R' Aharon Lichtensteins essay Does Judaism
Recognize an Ethic Independent of Halakhah,
http://www.scribd.
com/doc/16263866/Does-Judaism-Recognize-an-Ethic-Independent-of-Halakhah-by
-Rav-Aharon-Lichtenstein#scribd
where he quotes many sources that can be interpreted that way.
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Some thoughts from the book of Snerb on "Vayetze"

There is no one in Tanach names Avraham, Yitzchak and Yaakov or Moshe
 outside of the Avot.
Even in the Gemara Avraham Yaakov, Moshe don't appear but Yitzchak does
appear,

trvia question

1) Give names that appear at least twice in Tanach

One name appears for 16 people - which name?
Some others appeaer 5,6,7,8,9,10 times

Even with these repetitions the percentage is much less than what appears
with modern names.
Most names in Tanach appear only for one person (over 50%).
Given equal total numbers in modern society it is unlikely to find a name
that appears only once.

In Britain in the 1800s 20% of the boys were named John and 25% of the
girls Mary

2) Give names of people in Tanach named after some ancestor



-- 
Eli Turkel
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On 11/15/2015 1:41 PM, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
> R' Zev Sero wrote:
> "Any claim that some moral imperative exists that the Torah does not 
> mention or seem to hold is by definition a contradiction to the Torah."
>
> It is not so simple. Please see R' Aharon Lichtensteins essay Does 
> Judaism Recognize an Ethic Independent of Halakhah, 
> http://w
> ww.scribd.com/doc/16263866/Does-Judaism-Recognize-an-Ethic-Independent
> -of-Halakhah-by-Rav-Aharon-Lichtenstein#scribd 
> where he quotes many sources that can be interpreted that way.

I'm kind of surprised that RAL didn't cite Radak on Breishit 20:6. He 
says "And even though he wasn't commanded about it specifically, reason 
directs him, and the One who gave reason to humankind, it is as if He 
has commanded us to do as reason directs, because reason is the emissary 
of God, and it warns a person against all bad things, and the violence 
one does to his fellow is contrary to reason and destroys the order of 
the world and its habitation."

Lisa

On 11/15/2015 4:10 PM, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> Some thoughts from the book of Snerb on "Vayetze"
>
> There is no one in Tanach names Avraham, Yitzchak and Yaakov or Moshe 
>  outside of the Avot.
> Even in the Gemara Avraham Yaakov, Moshe don't appear but Yitzchak 
> does appear,

Akiva is the Aramaic version of Yaakov.

Lisa

> trvia question
>
> 1) Give names that appear at least twice in Tanach

Miriam, Jonathan, Azariah, Tamar, Calev, Lemech, and I'm sure a ton more.

Lisa

On 11/15/2015 09:10 AM, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> 2) Give names of people in Tanach named after some ancestor

I think Nachor was the first person to be named after his zeide.

David's daughter Tamar was descended from Yehuda's wife Tamar.
Reuel seems to have been the name of both Yitro and his father.


-- 
Zev Sero               All around myself I will wave the green willow
z...@sero.name          The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
                And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
                I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
                I'll explain it to you".

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 07:56:51AM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: Which brings up a whole bunch of further questions. Are there any other
: cases in our entire liturgy where we use HaSheim instead of the Shem Adnus?

Related.... RYBS has you parse the quote as "Ana, basheim kaper na... --
Please, through the medium of the name, give kaparah to the sinners..."
(Similarly, "ki bayom hazeh" is taken as a reference to "itzumo shel yom
mechaper".)

So, maybe here too he is somehow referring to the sheim Hashem?!

A second hint of what may be a more solid possibility, is that the
chazan shortly after uses sheim Adnus is a stand-in for the sheim
hameforash. Perhaps if Adnus is being promoted in this paragraph, we
use Hashem for sheim Havayah. (Assuming that Havayah isn't itself the
sheim hameforash, as per the Rambam.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When we are no longer able to change a situation
mi...@aishdas.org        -- just think of an incurable disease such as
http://www.aishdas.org   inoperable cancer -- we are challenged to change
Fax: (270) 514-1507      ourselves.      - Victor Frankl (MSfM)

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 01:08:54PM -0500, Michael Poppers via Avodah wrote:
: In Avodah V33n143, R'Micha asked:
:> Is there a difference between a few retail changes like those above,
:> and a wholesale change in nusach -- like the mass change to Sfard or Ari?

: I suspect R'Micha was asking in a semi-rhetorical fashion while implying,
: via what he wrote before asking that Q, that the answer is no.  Regardless,
: my 1st thought is that the answer should be "it depends"....

Actually, I was thinking of a different "it depends"...

Apparently we allow small changes (Yisgadeil veYisqadeish, for example)
because they make more sense to the people making the change. But
reluctant to make sweeping changes -- although they too have happened
on rare occasion.

So, it seems to me there is a non-boolean scale here. The greater the
change, the greater the necessary motivation, but it is

: when the #words in the given stanza is considered key to a deeper
: understanding and/or *kavvannah*, e.g. the section which immediately
: follows *q'riyas Shma* in Shacharis [100 words through "zulasecha"], a
: seemingly-minor change is significant, perhaps as significant as the order
: of *p'suqei d'zimra*...

And yet, PdZ as a whole isn't me'aqeiv. The Rambam only requires one
kapitl (Tehillah leDavid from Ashrei, #145), Rashi only requires two
kapitalakh (Halelukah, Halelu es H' Min Hashamayim, #148; and Halelukah,
Halelu Keil beQodsho, #150). And that's to be yotzei a non-chiyuv!

So how significant is the order?

And is the word count significant if the mispalel in question had a
greater teshuqah to some other idea?

My question is broadening into one about nusach and nomianism. Given
that one can be yotzei with either nusach alternative in question,
it seems to be all about minhagim WRT minhag vs kavanah, which is part
of the iqar mitzvah.

Contrary to implying the answer is that no change is possible, I am
wondering why any change (again, assuming some minima are met) would
be worse than paying in how passionately one davens.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             There's only one corner of the universe
mi...@aishdas.org        you can be certain of improving,
http://www.aishdas.org   and that's your own self.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                 - Aldous Huxley

more information regarding my long cherished dream - now a reality -
www.bpmeats.com

and various answers from R Chaim Kanievsky on the documents page


Meir G. Rabi
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<<But what about the person who switches to "Yisgadeil veYisqadeish", or
"haShemini, Atzeres hachag", or adds "umorid hatal", because they aid his
kavanah -- they say what he prefers to say. The AhS prefers the Sfrard
Mussaf leShabbos, because "az misinai nitztavu tzivui pa'aleha karu'i"
continues the reverse alef-beis with words whose initials are menatzpa"kh
(the sofios). Despite the weight he gives accepted pesaq. In Aleinu,
"vekhisei kevodo" instead of "umoshav yeqro", etc...>>

RYBS was very much against changing the nusach (eg nahem on tisha ba-av)
nevertheless he changed the nusach hatefila in many cases where he felt
that another version was more correct (eg he used the sefard version of the
avodah on YK). RMF also seems to note that kavanah is more important than
the nusach of the shul.

As noted RMF paskens that all chasidim should revert back to Nusach
Ashkenaz. I am curious if any chasid actually listened to this psak which
was opposed by all chasidic poskim. In general I have trouble with piskei
halacha for someone else's kehilla (as ROY liked to do).

In our shul we learn a short halacha yomit each morning from a book.
Yesterday I gave it and the sefer mentioned that EVERYONE says "Elokai -
Netzor etc. " right after "Asher Yatzar"
I pointed out that in a short survey of siddurim in out shul there where
many different variants of where it is said.

In many shuls wiht a given nusach there is more than one kind of siddur and
the chazzan chooses which one he uses. Thus, even given a nusach there are
variants within that nuscah (OTOH there are shuls that insist on a single
variant as given by a specific siddur).

Personally I feel that there is too much emphasis on minor variants as
opposed to kavannah, not talking etc. A few years ago there was a big deal
made about "geshem" vs "gashen". That seems to have died away



-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 11:26:10AM +0200, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
: As noted RMF paskens that all chasidim should revert back to Nusach
: Ashkenaz...

"Should" or "could"? Which has the second effect of thereby only being
a pesaq for those who choose to utilize the permission and thus not
really being someone else's kehillah. See IM OC 2:24 -- what does he
mean by resha'i"?

BTW, from within that kehillah, the Noam Elimelekh writes in a letter
that switching from Ashkenaz to Sfard was (at the time of the letter:
is) only for someone who fits a long list of qualifications. See
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=19056&;st=&pgnum=241>

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             What you get by achieving your goals
mi...@aishdas.org        is not as important as
http://www.aishdas.org   what you become by achieving your goals.
Fax: (270) 514-1507              - Henry David Thoreau

On 11/18/2015 04:26 AM, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> As noted RMF paskens that all chasidim should revert back to Nusach Ashkenaz.

No, he doesn't.

-- 
Zev Sero               All around myself I will wave the green willow
z...@sero.name          The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
                And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
                I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
                I'll explain it to you".

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 11:34:46AM +0200, Eli Turkel via Areivim wrote:
: In my shul if someone refuses to be chazan until asked 3 times he will
: never be chazzan and most probably many davenings will never get any chazan

The heter I was told for not following the SA (OC 53:16, AhS s' 15) is
that it became bigger issurim to (1) make difficulties for the gabbaim
and to (2) delay until it's a tirkha detzibura.

The SA (echoed by the AhS) says one must "lesareiv me'at", which he
defines as mesareiv at the first request, gretting ready at the second,
and standing up at the third. The AhS invokes serarah, saying that when
an adam gadol asks one may not refuse unless it's a davar sheyeish bazeh
serarus, in which saw "yesarei me'at".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Life is a stage and we are the actors,
mi...@aishdas.org        but only some of us have the script.
http://www.aishdas.org               - Rav Menachem Nissel
Fax: (270) 514-1507

I had an argument today in Rav Zilberstein's shiur. I let members give
their opinion

cases:
1) in WWII Turing et al broke the German code. In order to keep the break a
secret it was necessary to not always use the available information.
Churchill decided that keeping "breaking the code" secret was the highest
priority. This meant that people were killed in not using the information.
It is estimated that a million lives was saved by breaking the code and
Eisenhower said that breaking the enigma code was one of the important
points in the allied victory

2) A teerorist stabs someone seriously. A paramedic has the choice of
helping the seriously wounded person or else running after the terrorist
who is trying to kill many more

3)  A spy deep in enemy territory sees a wounded Jew. If he helps the
victim he gives away his identity and all the work put into his identity
and the information he has been gathering

4) In a battle the enemy attacks one side. Sending troops to help the
soldiers defend themselves leaves the flank open and could jeopardize the
entire "regiment"

psak of R. Zilberstein: We are only concerned with "chole be-fanenu" ,
Halacha is not interested in strategy. We rely on G-d to solve the future
problems. We solve the immediate problem and ignore the consequences that
is G-d's problem i,e, a present :vadai" overrides a future "safek" no
matter what. Hence, Churchill's decision was against halacha

I argued that this is different than the classical "choleh le-fanenu" and
"safek and vadai" and that one must consider future consequences but R
Zilberstein said again that halacha does not allow taking into account the
consequences at the expense of a single life

(as an aside he discussed a CI about using a shield to deflect arrows to
kill less people and claimed that it was not relevant to our case)

Again any opinions?

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 6:16 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 11:26:10AM +0200, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
>: As noted RMF paskens that all chasidim should revert back to Nusach
>: Ashkenaz...

> "Should" or "could"? ..               See IM OC 2:24 -- what does he
> mean by resha'i"?

> BTW, from within that kehillah, the Noam Elimelekh writes in a letter
> that switching from Ashkenaz to Sfard was (at the time of the letter:
> is) only for someone who fits a long list of qualifications....

I understood RMF as paskeing that all chassidim MUST halachically return to
nusach ashkenaz.

Without starting a new topic many chassidic poskim disagreed with RMF even
for the "average" chassid.

-- 
Eli Turkel

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 11:00:10PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: I understood RMF as paskeing that all chassidim MUST halachically return to
: nusach ashkenaz.

As I wrote, that depends how you understand his use of "reshai" rather
than "tzarikh or "chayav".

: Without starting a new topic many chassidic poskim disagreed with RMF even
: for the "average" chassid.

Yes, but the Noam Avimelekh, alive when the switch happened, would have
only justified the switch to people who actually gain by having the
opportunity to have those qabbailstic thoughts.

Which gets back to the original topic -- when does kavanah and saying
what you would like to say to your Creator override inherited nusach?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When faced with a decision ask yourself,
mi...@aishdas.org        "How would I decide if it were Ne'ilah now,
http://www.aishdas.org   at the closing moments of Yom Kippur?"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter


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