Volume 32: Number 125
Sun, 24 Aug 2014
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: elazar teitz
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 16:25:41 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] London Beit Din Kashrut Guidelines for Scotch
RMicha Berger quoted the LBD:
: 3) Whisky which has been matured in wine casks has been subject to
: detailed Halachic consideration by major poskim (including Minchas
: Yitzchok Vol 2, 28 and Igros Moshe Yore Deah Vol 1, 62 and 63) who
: did not forbid its consumption.
On this, he commented:
>This is loaded language. The IM didn't meatly "not forbid", he said
>it was mutar, complemented R' Pinchas Teitz on having a mispalel who
>wants to enable lifnim mishuras hadin, and wished the man success in
>his nekosher whiskey business.
The correspondence between my father and RMF, zichronom livracha, took
place before my bar-mitzva, so my knowledge of it is extremely limited, but
I do know that the question was not maturing in wine casks, but rather the
addition to the whisky of a wine-derived product. The question was limited
to blended whisky, since the added wine derivative was apparently intended
to aid in the blending. I recall that when the time came, in the
processing, to add the wine product, which itself was kosher, the distiller
would call my father, who would bring a small crew of shomrei Shabbos to
add it to the blend.
Furthermore, while RMF was mattir, he added that a ba'al nefesh should
refrain from drinking such a blend, and it was for this reason that he
complimented my father for arranging that there be a blended whisky which
all could drink. The whisky, apparently, wasn't too good -- it was a
resounding failure commercially.
EMT
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Message: 2
From: Kenneth Miller
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 16:06:39 GMT
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Insights Into Halacha: Smoking and Halacha: A
It seems to me that the conversation drifted from what MBRA said, to what the Septaguint said, and I'd like to bring the focus back to MBRA.
R' Zev Sero wrote:
> Remember MBRA did *not* say "tzoraas". He said "dovor acher". It's
> Rashi who translates that as "tzoraas", by which he meant whatever
> people in *his* day called "tzoraas".
R' Micha Berger responded:
> But that's subject to the same problem. There is no reason to
> believe the meaning of the word "tzora'as" was anything but
> tzora'as in Rashi's day either. (And it would have to have the
> same shifted meaning in the Tur's mileau as well.) I still see no
> indication that there is a second meaning of the word, aside from
> the KJV's confusion.
Okay, I would like to suggest a reason to believe that the meaning of the
word "tzora'as" was something other than the Torah's tzora'as in Rashi's
day. Nsmely, it appears that Rashi believed that eating it (what? I don't
remember. I think it was fish and meat.) could cause tzaraas.
How could this happen? How could a value-neutral action which has no
relevance to halacha (in other words, it's not lashon hara or tumah or any
such) cause tzaraas? If tzaraas is a spiritual malady, how could Rashi
believe that it might have a physical cause, even in MBRA's day? Wouldn't
it be simpler to say that the tzaraas that Rashi referred to was some sort
of medical malady?
Akiva Miller
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Message: 3
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 14:26:49 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Insights Into Halacha: Smoking and Halacha: A
On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 04:06:39PM +0000, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
: Okay, I would like to suggest a reason to believe that the meaning
: of the word "tzora'as" was something other than the Torah's tzora'as
: in Rashi's day. Nsmely, it appears that Rashi believed that eating it
: (what? I don't remember. I think it was fish and meat.) could cause
: tzaraas.
In light of RAM's appeal to refocus...
The gemara on Pesachim 76b gets to fish when Rava from Parzikia forbade
eating a fish that was baked with meat to be eaten with kutach. This is
told as an incident, not a direct quote. And it's probably basar bechalav
-- kutach is apparently something like a milchig bread kugel.
Mar bar R' Ashi says: even in salt it would still be assur, because it is
kashya lereicha uledavar acheir.
Rashi d"h "ledavar achair" simply says "tzora'as".
MBRA is the generation between the two credited with compiling the
bavli -- R' Ashi is his father and the Ravina of "Rav Ashi veRavina"
was his son. (Not to be confused with the Ravina of "Ravina veR' Ashi",
Rav Ashi's contemporary and frequent bar pelugta.) But in any case,
we're talking among the last of the amora'im, well after the miracle
era of a Choni haMagal or R' Chanina b Dosa.
Still, Rashi assumes he is speaking of tzora'as.
The Tur, Beis Yosef, et al (YD 116) take this gemara to mean that meat
and fish cooked together is qasheh letza'aras.
So the question is whether Rashi felt that tzora'as lasted into the
late 5th cent CE, or did MBRA 's "qashel le-" apply even if not actual
tzora'a would ensue, or did he not mean tzora'as in the classic sense?
And whatever Rashi thought MBRA was speaking of, later posqim clearly
hold is still applicable. With the exception of the MA 173 s"q 1 and
MB s"q 3.
: How could this happen? How could a value-neutral action which has no
: relevance to halacha (in other words, it's not lashon hara or tumah or
: any such) cause tzaraas? ...
Does Rashi hold that a pasul mezuzah that was checked twice in the past
7 years protect less than one that wasn't? Or that basar bechalav eaten
because of proper reliance on kelalei pesaq caused timtum haleiv?
Does the Tur or the SA?
It wouldn't be the only case of a baal mesorah attributing metaphysical
causality other than sechar va'onesh. Just because I personally try to
avoid such things doesn't mean I can ignore the fact that many rabbanim
do assert them.
Another possibility for Rashi, although not for the opinions in YD 115:
Is MBRA saying that you can't have the fish roasted with meat with
salt /rather than/ with kutach, or even if there was /also/ salt (and
the conequent change in ta'am).
: Wouldn't
: it be simpler to say that the tzaraas that Rashi referred to was some
: sort of medical malady?
Naniach it would be easier, because I loathe positiving metaphysical
sources of suffering or boon other than sekhar va'onesh. Seems too unfair.
But I still fail to see a way of making a word mean something else just
because it would have been easier that way. We have no Torah source, and
in fact no source at all that is nearly as old as Rashi, the Tur or Maran
Bet Yosef that indicates tzora'as means anything but what is described
in Vayiqra. I don't think this problem is itself sufficient to invent
new translations for words, and I don't think RAM would consider trying
to if it weren't for the KJV leprosy thing making it into modern Hebrew.
My own take leans toward saying "qasheh le-" refers to the historical
linkage to tzora'as. Notice that we don't get tzora'as anymore, and also
there are no noticable numbers of our non-observant brethren getting
sick from the saqanah of cooking meat and fish together.
On the minus side:
It requires taking liberties with chamira saqanta mei'issura as well,
as it requires acknowleding our lack of empirical evidence of any saqanah.
And second, for the rationalist in me it requires admitting I have no
explanation why mixing meat and fish might make one more suseptable to
spirito-somatic effects of their LH or egotism or what-not. But then,
I don't know why, maybe related to Bamidbar 11:4-5, and fish and meat
being representative of "the good old days" in Mitzraym. OTOH, Mitzayim
tends to be held up as a waraning about arayos, not LH or gaavah.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger One who kills his inclination is as though he
mi...@aishdas.org brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507 parts to offer. - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv
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Message: 4
From: Zev Sero
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 14:47:07 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Insights Into Halacha: Smoking and Halacha: A
On 19/08/2014 2:26 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> -- kutach is apparently something like a milchig bread kugel.
Kutach is a sauce made of fermented whey, grain, and salt. It is not a
solid.
According to this it was formed as dried balls for storage, but then mixed
with water for eating.
http://books.googl
e.com/books?id=gFK_yx7Ps7cC&;lpg=PT595&dq=kashk%20kutach&pg=
PT594#v=onepage&q=kashk%20kutach&f=false
--
Zev Sero Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name from malice.
- Eric Raymond
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Message: 5
From: Adaruth
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 04:23:10 -0700
Subject: [Avodah] Bugs in vegetables
Why is salt water or vinegar soaking not acceptable to check for bugs?
Wouldn't they be
Cheaper and safer than chemical washes?
Ada Jacobowitz
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Message: 6
From: Kenneth Miller
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 12:40:49 GMT
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Bugs in vegetables
Ada Jacobowitz asked:
> Why is salt water or vinegar soaking not acceptable to check for bugs?
> Wouldn't they be Cheaper and safer than chemical washes?
I've heard that in some cases, the bugs react to them by clinging to the leaf even more tightly. Thus, they may be cheaper and safer, but less effective.
Akiva Miller
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Message: 7
From: Michael Poppers
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 21:12:21 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The Chatam Sofer and the Admor of Munkatch Say
In Avodah V32n122, RJIR wrote:
> I remember reading a shiur (could've been VBM but I'm not sure) that the
last bracha is really not hodayah but rather part of birchat kohanim. I
might then say that this might explain the "tzivui" since the cohanim
might be saying (a la what's said by viduo maser) we did our part now you
do yours (vsamu et shmi-vani avarcheim) <
I was also thinking that "Sim Shalom" was connected to Bircas Kohanim, but
I think the raised issue of "are we asking? insisting? praising?" is more
general than just that particular *b'rachah*'s language. *Baqashah* is not
the same thing as *tachanunim*, and because it is within the framework of a
*b'rachah* in the Amidah, the T'filah of a *tzibbur*, I think it includes
our faith that He who did and does such-and-such also will do it in the
future (I'm thinking of a *d'var Torah* on P'Eiqev which explained why
Bircas haMazon is phrased in the Torah as "uveirachta" rather than
"v'hodata" even though it is praise). As such, we're not requesting peace
(or other things) in the Amidah as much as proclaiming what the Hayah Hoveh
v'Yihyeh has always done for Am Yisrael and hoping to witness His again
doing so. My tuppence :).
All the best from
*Michael Poppers* * Elizabeth, NJ, USA
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Message: 8
From: Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 17:06:45 +0000
Subject: [Avodah] YGB - ??"?:To Begin to Appreciate Rav Ovadia Yosef's
Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer has sent you a link to a blog:
Blog: YGB - ??"?
Post: To Begin to Appreciate Rav Ovadia Yosef's Derech
Link:
http://rygb.blogspot.com/2014/08/to-begin-to-appreciate-rav-ovadia.html
--
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