Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 113

Fri, 25 Jul 2014

• 1. Re: flat earth (Kenneth Miller)
• 2. Re: flat earth (Micha Berger)
• 3. karneipara/yerachbenyomo (saul newman)
• 4. mishebeirach (saul newman)
• 5. how hashgacha works (saul newman)
• 6. Insights Into Halacha: Showering During the Nine Days?! (Prof. Levine)
• 7. Re: how hashgacha works (Lisa Liel)
• 8. Re: how hashgacha works (Kenneth Miller)
• 9. Re: how hashgacha works (Ben Waxman)
• 10. Uva'u Kulam Bivris Yachad (David Wacholder)
• 11. Re: the International Dateline and the shape of the earth (Avi Goldstein)
• 12. hishtadlus (saul newman)
• 13. Re: the International Dateline and the shape of the earth (Micha Berger)
• 14. Wanderings of Family of Israel- finally Arriving at Destination - to Become Nation of Israel (David Wacholder)

R' Eli Turkel wrote:
> The gemara talks about mayim she-lanu for baking chametz on the
> assumption that the sun goes below the earth at night. Makes
> sense only for a flat earth.

It seems to me that if I am awake at midnight, and I point towards the
floor - not straight down but bit northward - then I *am* pointing
approximately towards the sun. Granted that the sun is too far away to warm
up the water, but it *is* below me.

Perhaps mayim she'lanu teaches us not about the earth's shape, but its
size: The sun is indeed below the earth at night, but the earth is so large
that it insulates the mayim she'lanu frin the sun's heat.

Akiva Miller
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On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 06:14:53PM -0400, Micha Berger wrote:
:: Using Micha's logic all literate people knew Pythagoras' theorem and
:: therefore the Rash couldnt have said it...

: Well, to parallel my actual thesis, the Rosh had to have actively rejected
: it, rather than been ignorant. Which is what his words actually say.

: In any case, Pythagoras's theorem doesn't work in practice with real
: fields and human-drawn lines. Relying on it to plan a field is of limited
: value. (The difference between theory and practice is that in theory,
: there would be no difference.)

I was asked off-list to clarify that "in practice with real fields and
human-drawn lines". And after getting the clarification, the chaver/ah
thought it would be worth repeating on-list. So...

In real fields, the lines have a third dimension. It's only the subset
of the distance that is exactly horizontal that would conform to
pyththagorus. (The approximation involved in measuring technique and
the curvature of the earth are ignorable, but other things aren't.) If
the guys with the chains measuring the sides of the field have to go
up and down into hills and valleys, they won't get the actual sides of
the triangle.

Also, realize my intent is more along the lines of_limud zekhus (reapplied
to math) than belief it's *necessarily* what the Rosh is saying. I am as
loathe to say a rishon rejected well-accepted ideas that are verifiable
as to say that chazal had supernal knowledge of the subject.

If today's competent poseiq is one who won't comment without really
knowing the state of the art of understanding the metzi'us, then how
can we believe less of the greats of the mesorah's history?

And so, I cannot believe Rabbeinu Tam would comment about tzeis without
knowing that the people around him believed (correctly, as it turns
out) that the world was round. Just as the Rosh wasn't ignorant of
pythagoras, he actively rejected it -- or at least the theorem's use
for actual fields.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is equipped with such far-reaching vision,
mi...@aishdas.org        yet the smallest coin can obstruct his view.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

http://www.rambish.org.il/journals/n/nezer_hatora/vol018/nezer01845.pdf
http://drashotforyou.blogspot.com/2014/05/blog-post_6.html
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in opening the knesset session just now to crown the new President, r yuli
edelstein said hashem instead of Adon-ai  in the mishebeirach for chayalim
 , including the psukim.   is there any reason that was neccesary?
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were the chayalim who died destined to die that day, or only because
a war was declared?

ie was their Goral dependent on the decisions of others , and had war
not been declared, they might have had long lives? does all of G-d's
initial plan get turned around because of the decision of certain
individuals decisions?

Since many catastrophes and national tragedies befell our people
during this time period, including the destruction of both of the Batei
HaMikdash on Tisha B'Av, halacha dictates various restrictions on us in
order to mourn our great losses, and properly commemorate by feeling the
devastation. One of these restrictions is not to bathe during the Nine
Days. Although at first glance from a preliminary reading of Rabbinic
literature on topic, showering seems to be black on white prohibited,
yet, from the works of many contemporary authorities it seems a better
question would be...

To find out more read the full article "Insights Into Halacha: Showering
During the Nine Days?!".
<www.ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5228>

Ha-kol tzafui v'ha-daat nitna.  You aren't going to get a better answer.

Lisa

On 7/24/2014 10:01 AM, saul newman via Avodah wrote:
> were the chayalim who died destined to die that day, or only because
> a war was declared?
>
> ie was their Goral dependent on the decisions of others , and had war
> not been declared, they might have had long lives? does all of G-d's
> initial plan get turned around because of the decision of certain
> individuals decisions?
>

R' Saul Newman asked:

> were the chayalim who died destined to die that day, or only
> because a war was declared?

I am fairly certain that the answer is "yes". It surely was one or the
other. Either they had been long since destined for that, or their destiny
had been recently changed for that. We'll never know which of those two,
but I don't see any possible third option. 

> ie was their Goral dependent on the decisions of others, and had
> war not been declared, they might have had long lives?

"Tzuri v'lo avlasa bo" - Hashem's calculations are perfect. We each get
EXACTLY what we deserve, and that includes the bystanders and the
"collateral damage". There are no "incidental" side effects. They are all
part of His plan, and He arranged things so that it would all work out
perfectly.

Of course, it is an infinitely complicated program, but that's God's job,
and He does it perfectly. If the resha'im had exercised their bechira not
to commit those acts, Hashem would have known this, and He would have
reworks the script to unfold a bit differently. And still, everyone woudl
get exactly what they deserve.

The above is merely my understanding, of course. But I can't imagine it
being any other way. Well, I guess there are those who would say I'm
invoking Hashgacha Pratis, and they see the world being run in a more
Hashgacha Klalis manner; I'll let them answer in their own way.

Akiva Miller

Rabos machashavos b'lev ish.
Vaatzas Hashem - hee sakum!
Atzas Hashem l'olam taamod.
Machshvos libo l'dor vador.


.
____________________________________________________________
The #1 Worst Carb Ever?
Click to Learn #1 Carb that Kills Your Blood Sugar (Don't Eat This!)
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After Rabbi Chayim Brovender was released from the hospital (where he 
recovered from being nearly lynched) he gave a seuda hodaya. Several 
speakers got up and rejoiced in the hashgacha pratis that saved him.  
When Rav Brovender got up to speak, he said very simply that it wasn't 
hashgacha pratis, he was simply being part of Jewish History.

Ben

On 7/25/2014 1:40 AM, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
> I am fairly certain that the answer is "yes". It surely was one or the
> other. Either they had been long since destined for that, or their
> destiny had been recently changed for that. We'll never know which of
> those two, but I don't see any possible third option.

Shuttle diplomacy clarifies for me why we have two versions of "Yonah
Matz'ah Bo Manoach", Rabi Yehudah Halevi's famous Piyut. The well known
printed version comes from after the Cease Fire, extolling the treaty -- 
Uva'u Kulam Bivris Yachad -- they all signed the treaty and in unison
promised to abide by the terms. 

What were they singing before this Kumbaya moment extolled in our version? 

For this we go to the original as printed in several places, not least
Shirei Kodesh shel  Rabi Yehudah Halevi ?"?, ??????? ???"? ??' pages
647-646.  

This may be the undertone what they are really thinking, at least until
Mashiach comes.  

and 

  from amidst the dark fog You shall light up the darkness"????? ????? ????
???? /

To above the clouds raise the downtrodden     ??? ?? ???? ????? ??? / 

????? ??? ???? ????   /  

The Fortress [of Acre] of my torturer I will see toppled 

 ?? ????? ????? ???.

I and I alone am filled with Strength 

 

???? ???? ?????? ????? /

Trod under your shoes enemies and Tormentors 

 ??? ???? ?????? ???? /

And bring low the legs of traitors 

 ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????? /

So our Nation will together burst out in happy song 

 ?? ?????? ?? ???? ???

Power who travels on wind's wings  

 

May it be -- Yonah Matz'ah! 

: <<Then there is the Y-mi AZ 3:1, already cited by RYGB, in which Alexander
: flew on eagleback so high he saw the world was round >>
: Again generalizing picking and choosing. There are several other gemarot
: that show that some of Chazal believed the world was flat...

The implication of the above is that the Yerushalmi believed the world to
be spherical. Nowhere in this Yerushalmi (or its citation by Tosafos, AZ
41a) is there even a hint that the earth's surface is spherical. The only
statement the Gemara makes is that the earth is surrounded by a dome. It is
not clear at all whether Chazal knew that the atmosphere was ball-like or
whether it was a semi-circle. The latter seems much more likely.
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http://jewishworker.blogspot.co.il/2014/07/the-role-of-
human-initiative-and-action.html

is an army/iron dome  doing anything, or is it all Hashem?
why did Hashem require an army to conquer Canaan ?
why could that one get credit , but not today?
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On Fri, Jul 25, 2014 at 11:59:16AM -0400, Avi Goldstein via Avodah wrote:
::: there is the Y-mi AZ 3:1, already cited by RYGB, in which Alexander
::: flew on eagleback so high he saw the world was round

:: Again generalizing picking and choosing. There are several other gemarot
:: that show that some of Chazal believed the world was flat...

: The implication of the above is that the Yerushalmi believed the world to
: be spherical. Nowhere in this Yerushalmi (or its citation by Tosafos, AZ
: 41a) is there even a hint that the earth's surface is spherical. The only
: statement the Gemara makes is that the earth is surrounded by a dome...

No, it says outright (vilna ed 18b) "'kadur' -- sheha'alom asui kekadur."
This is then followed by R' Yonah telling the story about Alexander. "Es
ha'olam kekadur, ve'es ha'olam keke'arah".

There was a commonly accepted astronomy in Chazal's day in which
the earth is covered by a dome-shaped sky, the Persian theory. In it,
the world is a ball that floats on water. There is little reason to
assume without evidence Chazal had their own theory which was different.
R' Yonah's description fits Persian cosmology.

Also, I don't recall who wrote the 2nd paragraph in the quoted text above
(the double-quoted leading with "::"), but my thesis was about Rabbeinu
Tam not being ignorant of the world being round. He may have made a
choice to disbelieve it, but it wasn't because he didn't know the idea
exists. I wasn't out to prove that all of chazal believed something;
just that RT must have known that some of chazal did. As RYGB put it,
we could take it as a given he knew of the Y-mi.

As for what chazal believed, I think the question needs answering on
an individual basis, without assuming 600 years of consensus.

My understanding of Rabbeinu Tam is as much a product of personal
bias as data -- we don't have the primary text, and I don't find any
one reading of the SM exclusively compelling. But just FYI, I believe
RT was saying Rebbe never switched to believing in a round world, not
that RT himself didn't believe in it.

BTW, the Gra writes about "nir'in divreihem" in his commentary to
Sefer haYetzirah. He says that when Rebbe (quoted above) said "nir'in
divreihem", he meant that it looks like they were right and we erred,
but that is only because it only looks like we were really talking about
science, and not using science as a mashal.

Also, how old do you think is the geoentrism of Tiqunei Zohar 128b?
Or the tosefta in Zohar Vayechi 233b, and its discussion of the Music
of the Spheres? (Tangential, since I won't assume RT mastered the
Zohar...)

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             What you get by achieving your goals
mi...@aishdas.org        is not as important as
http://www.aishdas.org   what you become by achieving your goals.
Fax: (270) 514-1507              - Henry David Thoreau

 

As the very last section of the longest series of Portions in the entire
year, the end of Mas'ei brings sigh of relief - Chazak Chazak VeNitchazeik!

Parshas - Mas'ei - written while under rocket attack

Wandering But - Finally - arriving at Destination!: 

.        General: The illusion of wanderings - of going wrong direction and
leaving Hashem - Lo Nacham.. Comes to a head here. The last steps of
wandering most lost and most in some way close to arrival. Ends in the Mazal
Tov Column -

.        Chapter  33  - how they arrived here

.        42 wanderings - when wandering hard to keep orientation compass
direction - that is why some say they all must be read as once, not to get
lost. 

.        Then approach Hashem Himself for your portions of land, each a
Direct Gift from Hashem - you are under Hashem Direct Hashgacha - know that
it is a gift and accept it.

.        Chap-Verse: 33-52, 33-55 33-56:   If you instead of as Connected
Gift, instead consider it just an indirect "happenstance" of various Avodah
Zara based ways of life, then the surrounding Nations are equal to you, same
level. They will ceaselessly needle you to listen their seventy powers and
not connect "Directly to the One Giver". For well known reasons, the 70
"surrounding = orbiting " nations - wish to connect with their
"Constellations " - natural world "Command and Control" - their Sarei H'umos
70 Powers. 

.        Therefore - either the "neighbors" plug into the One Giver and One
Nation, or you must proclaim the conflict and emerge victorious.

.        Part of "gift accepting" is the Lots system, accenting the giver
[33-54. ] 

.        Chapter 34 - how far the borders extend - here close to the Ideal
borders, when the Giver is connected well. 34-17 begins the Leaders who know
where they are going to by name. 

.        Chapter 35: Designate 42 cities in EY as Levite cities and
surrounding fields (buffer zones).  Laws of Negligent Manslaughter [murder
by carelessness]. and Arei Miklat, Exile Cities besides the Levite Cities,
havens to cure them sheltered from being murdered in revenge. Orders for the
Settlement after the Conquest, including named cities, starting with the 2.5
tribes of Other (East) Side of Yarden RiverValley. 

.        35-33, don't tunnel under the land - undermine it by rewarding
murder - that is Lo Tachanifu Et Ha'aretz - do not steal and misuse the
Special Land, supposed to remain a Preserve of Hashem's closeness and gift
to Bnei Yisrael

.        Cute on name Tzlofchad, meaning sharpshooter as Tzalaf Chad. As
opposed to the struggling and wandering - now aiming and Shooting sharp
projectiles,  two words Tzalaf Chad] - used their sharpness well to claim
their portion under Hashem's Chuppah.. Daughters were lovers of EY Benos
Tzlofchad [they already envisioned their Bashert future as read ideal "Tzel
Pachad" in the Chupah of hashem as in "extend over us the Sukkah shelter of
Your Peace".  

.         

 

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