Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 107

Wed, 16 Jul 2014

• 1. Re: Kaddish (hankman)
• 2. Re: shabbat in Alaska ()
• 3. Re: shabbat in Alaska (Kenneth Miller)
• 4. Re: text of Borei Nefashos (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: shabbat in Alaska (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 6. Re: shabbat in Alaska (Zev Sero)
• 7. The case for a flat earth (Eli Turkel)
• 8. Re: shabbat in Alaska (Eli Turkel)
• 9. Re: shabbat in Alaska (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 10. Re: text of Borei Nefashos (Kenneth Miller)
• 11. Sheim Elokus (David Wacholder)

RZS wrote:

?He can be secretly overjoyed when they die, but must pretend otherwise.?

CM notes:

This seems to imply that even you agree that to hate openly would be to
dishonour your parents. Only secretly would hating not be the equivalent of
dishonouring.

Kol tuv

Chaim Manaster
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It's interesting that as we happen to be talking about Shabbos in Alaska  
here on Avodah, we had a guest this past Shabbos, my daughter's  friend, 
whose parents are in fact right now enjoying a two-week Alaskan  cruise.  (Well 
maybe by now they are home already.)
 
She mentioned that her parents had encountered a most intriguing and  
unusual situation.  A cruise ship from Alaska crosses the International  Dateline 
on a day which is Friday on one side and Shabbos on the other.   After an 
hour or so on the Shabbos side, it crosses back over the Dateline,  crossing 
back from Shabbos into Friday.  Our guest stated that you have to  keep 
Shabbos for that hour, to which my husband wondered, How would you fit  
davening, kiddush and shalosh seudos into that one hour?  Of course it was  a 
facetious question.  But it did make me wonder what, in fact, you would  have to 
do in such a situation.
 
Could you, for instance, eat anything during that hour?  Or would you  
first have to daven the Shabbos davening and make kiddush?  I presume  you would 
have to abstain from performing melachos during that hour -- but  is that 
so?  What would you do if you weren't sure exactly when the ship  crossed the 
Dateline, and back again  -- let's say you knew it was sometime  during the 
afternoon but you didn't know exactly when.
 
I asked our guest what her parents did and she laughed and said, "They  
found out about the problem before they booked the cruise, so they took a  
different cruise instead."  Avoiding weird situations and outlandish  problems 
is what we Jews do best, but that isn't always an option!
 

--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


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R"n Toby Katz wrote:
> A cruise ship from Alaska crosses the International Dateline on a
> day which is Friday on one side and Shabbos on the other.  After an
> hour or so on the Shabbos side, it crosses back over the Dateline,
> crossing back from Shabbos into Friday.  Our guest stated that you
> have to keep Shabbos for that hour, to which my husband wondered, ...

We moderns like to think of such questions as quite novel. But I vaguely
recall reading a teshuva on this very sort of thing, and the posek drew a
precedent from a very similar situation: A gemara describes an Israeli who
holds one day of Yom Tov, and on his Isru Chag, he travels and arrives in a
settlement in Chutz Laaretz, where it is now 2nd Day Yom Tov. This traveler
plans to remain permanently, and is therefore obligated to follow all the
halachos of Yom Tov, from that point in the day onward.

At least, that's how I remember it. The teshuva may even have gone on to
say what happens if he leaves Chutz Laaretz the same day. Perhaps this will
spark someone else's memory.

Akiva miller
____________________________________________________________
The #1 Worst Carb Ever?
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R' Michael Katz wrote:
: This is amazing when almost all major poskim who deal with nusach prefer  
: "shebara."  Starting with the gemara in Berachos, Tur,  the Gra,  Chayei 
: Adam, Kitzur Shulchan Aruch and Mishna Berura.  Aruch haShulchan  also seems to 
: prefer "shebara" since he lists it first.  It seems  that only a small 
: minority of poskim quoted by Magen Avraham favor  "shebarasa."

"Shebarasa" is Nusach Sepharad. See the BY. I didn't see either in
the SA, just "borei nefashos rabos", upon which the MB offers the full
nusach.

Why it ever caught on in Ashkenaz, aside from Chassidim, is beyond me.

The Gra, and therefore perhaps the MB, may be based on a side-sevara
that most Ashkenazim do not hold of in general. (Not that that explains
the Rosh, the Levush, the Taz, the AhS...)

The Gra is careful to make every chasimas haberakhah in the third person.
As in "hamqadeish shemo barabim", whereas most Ashk would say "shimkha".

I think this is where RCVolozhiner gets the idea in NhC sha'ar 2 about
a berakhah following the shefa "down" from HQBH to olam hazeh. He writes
that this is why a erakhah starts in the 2nd person (Barukh Atah) but ends
in the third (asher qidshanu bemitzvosav, not -ekha/-akh).

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             For those with faith there are no questions.
mi...@aishdas.org        For those who lack faith there are no answers.
http://www.aishdas.org                     - Rav Yaakov of Radzimin
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On 07/15/2014 02:53 AM, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
>> And yes, Rabbeinu Tam knew the earth was a sphere. All the intelligensia
>> did, even in France in the Dark Ages.

> In the disagreement between Rebbe and the Greeks about the path of the
> Earth the genara says that Rebbe admitted the Greeks were right. Rabbenu
> Tam states that in reality Rebbe was right and the admission was
> technical.

I assume Rabbeinu Tam knew Tosafos Avodah Zarah 41a d"h K'Kadur, which 
tells us the world is round.

KT,
YGB

On 15/07/2014 12:51 PM, via Avodah wrote:
> She mentioned that her parents had encountered a most intriguing and
> unusual situation.  A cruise ship from Alaska crosses the
> International Dateline on a day which is Friday on one side and
> Shabbos on the other. After an hour or so on the Shabbos side, it
> crosses back over the Dateline, crossing back from Shabbos into
> Friday.  Our guest stated that you have to keep Shabbos for that hour,
> to which my husband wondered, How would you fit davening, kiddush and
> shalosh seudos into that one hour?  Of course it was a facetious
> question.	But it did make me wonder what, in fact, you would have to
> do in such a situation.

The first answer is that there is no halachic basis for the line in the ocean
that the nations have decided to call the International Dateline.  There are
many opinions about where the dateline is, and some put it *approximately*
where the nations have done at the moment, but *nobody* holds that it tracks
the nations' line exactly, and changes when they change it.   So while almost
everyone holds that Alaska is on the American side and Siberia is on the
Asian side, and some even hold that almost all the Aleutian islands are on
the American side, so that *on land* there's almost no practical difference
between the halacha and current international convention, nobody holds that
at sea.  So first one would have to decide where the halachic dateline actually
runs, and then find out whether the ship crosses it.

And then there's R Kasher's opinion that there's no halachic dateline per se,
but rather one keeps ones original calendar until one arrives somewhere with
a different calendar; according to him the question doesn't even start, and
the entire cruise goes according to the American calendar, even if it were to
go right up to the Russian coast without landing.

That leaves the hypothetical question: suppose one were to pasken definitely
according to one of the opinions about the dateline's location, and one were
to cross it.  Suppose further that one chose an opinion that has a hard and
fixed dateline, rather than one like that of the Bnei Tzion (R Dovid Shapiro),
who has a wide band with a status of "bein hashmoshos", i.e. unresolvable safek.
Suppose one held that the line is *here*, and one is now crossing it, from
vadai chol to vadai shabbos or vice versa.  What then?

It seems to me that if one is crossing into Shabbos, one is also crossing into
a particular time of day on that Shabbos.  So if it's two in the afternoon
there's no obligation to daven maaariv or shacharis, and there's plenty of
time for mincha (by which time it will no longer be Shabbos and the chiyuv
will have disappeared).  As far as kiddush is concerned one would have to be
mevarer what triggers the chiyuv of kiddush: is it itzumo shel yom, or is it
the *onset* of Shabbos, with the setting of Friday's sun?  But it seems to me
that it wouldn't hurt (in this hypothetical) to bring along some wine and
to say Vayechulu and Hagafen, but not the bracha of kiddush because safek
brachos lehakel.


-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

Instead of the common give and take I will try and put together in one
place the proofs for a flat earth with regard to Rabbenu Tam (RT). This is
based on articles/books by Sternberg and Landa. After that I am retiring
from this discussion.

Gemara:
As previously mentioned the Shvut Yaakov knew the gemara in AZ and
nevertheless "paskened" that the earth is flat based on Chagigah 12a.
 Hence, there is no reason to think that RT would say otherwise.
Rabbi Zev Wolf Einhorn in his commentary on Bereshit says that chazal
believed that the land mass of the earth is flat and reached to the sky.
The sky itself is a spherical cover on top of the ocean (Maharzov 6:8)
 (BTW this explains the gemara in AZ.).
See for example Pesachim 94a that the world is 6000 parsa and the support
of the sky is 100 parsa.
(Rashi: support=thickness). Rabbi Yehidah gives the thickness of the sky as
1/10 of a day.
Rabbi Natan states that the inhabited portion of the  earth is under one
star since anyway a person walks he sees the same star. Rashi explains that
if a person travels to the end of the earth he sees the star in the same
place (obviously only true for a flat earth) .

In Bava Batra 74a Rabba Bar Bar Huna  tells of a place where the sky and
earth meet.
Rashi explains that this meeting place was very far from Israel rather the
story takes place on a tall mountain that reaches the sky. The assumption
is that the fables of Rabba Bar Bar Huna are not to be taken literally.
However, Rashi obviously believed that there exists a place far away where
the earth and sky meet, ie the earth is flat.

The gemara in Chagiga 12a states that the distance between the earth and
the sky equals to the distance from one side of the erath to the other. The
Shvut Yaakov took this literally, I would assume based on the other gemarot
that indicate a flat earth.

Obviously now that we know that the earth is spherical various commentaries
explain these gemarot in a non-literal sense. However, all this is based on
the assumption that Chazal could not err in physical science even when that
was the popular notion in their day.

Rabbenu Tam:
1) As discussed before the gemara above in Pesachim continues with a debate
between Rebbe and gebtile sages how the sun behaves at night going from the
west to the east to reappear in the morning. Sternberg in his article says
that the Gentile view is consistent with the Greek view of that time
(including a flat earth) while the Jewish view is consistent with nothing
physical.
In any case the Gemara assumes that the sun goes under the earth at night
(again flat earth) and so the waters heat up at night (Note that this is
the origin of "Mayim She-Lanu" for Pesach !
Of course in reality none of this occurs.
In any case Rabbenu Tam champions Rebbe against the Gentile sages and
re-explains the gemara that seems to vindicate the Gentile sages

2) RT based on a contradiction between 2 gemarot claims there are 2
"sunsets" the "real" sunset and one 72 minutes later. Anyone who lives in
EY (or Babylonia) could not come up with such an answer since 72 minutes
after the sun sets is complete black and absolutely nothing physical
happens. Futhermore a flat 72 minutes assumes (again!) a flat earth. For a
spherical earth this should depend on how far north (or south) of the
equator one is. In fact later generations changed the 72 minutes to the
inclination of the sun under the horizon. As Beinisch shows in fact all
Southern countries did NOT follow the shitah of RT. Sternberg goes further
and claims that no one paskened in real life like RT until Jews reached
nothern Europe. Otherwise they would be lighting candles friday evening
when it is pitch dark outside (the further North one goes the longer
twilight is and so this prtoblem doesnt occur). In any case RT did not take
any of this into account because he assumed a flat earth.

Note that SA paskens like RT. An interesting question (I dont know the
answer) is what Rav Yosef Karo did in his home in Tzfat. Did they really
light candles friday night when it was completely dark outside?  In any
case today almost nobody (always exceptions) paskens like RT except as a
chumra. Even ROY who (almost always) paskens like the SA accepts the shitah
of the Geonim and paskens like RT only for chumra.
There is a famous stort of the Satmar Rebbe driving through Meah Shearim
well after sunset on friday (before the time of RT) and the car being
stoned. He then took on himself to accept shabbat early like the Geonim.
Note also that the Geonim lived in Babylonia where they has advanced
astronomy among the Arabs and so presumably knew the aerth was spherical
and so could not accept a commentary similar to RT.

In Conclusion there are nuerous gemarot that assume a flat earth.There is
one gemara in AZ which might indicate a spherical earth.
This can also be explained away (ie a spherical sky on top of a flat
earth). However, those that assume that Chazal never err claim that the
flat earth gemarot be explained allegorically while the gemera in AZ must
be literal.
It is clear that both Rashi and RT accepted a flat earth as seen from their
commentaries on various gemarot. Certaionly the Geonim, Rihal, Baal Hamaor
and rishonim (mainly from Spain and the Provence) knew the earth was a
sphere.

Long enough - the siren just went off

-- 
Eli Turkel
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>
> << I assume Rabbeinu Tam knew Tosafos Avodah Zarah 41a d"h K'Kadur, which
> tells us the world is round.>>
>

Many ancients believed the world was flat but circular and so interpreted
the gemara.
There are many other gemarot that imply that the world is flat. So much so
that the Shevut Yaakov (Yaakov ben Yoseph Reischer (Bechofen) (1661-1733)  )
 concluded that the earth cannot be round like the astronomers claim since
it is against an explicit gemara (Chagiga 12a) that the world is flat !!

Today that everyone knows the earth is a sphere (well almost ellipsoidal)
we interpret the gemara to prove this. However, in the days that most
people thought the
world was flat that interpreted many gemarot in that fashion



-- 
Eli Turkel
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It says "k'kadur" not "k'iggul". Why do you insist on assuming RT was 
ignorant when there is reasonable evidence that he knew? (See also the 
Yerushalmi on which the Tosafos is based about Alexander and the 
curvature of the Earth.)

KT,
YGB


On 07/15/2014 09:21 PM, Eli Turkel wrote:
>
>     << I assume Rabbeinu Tam knew Tosafos Avodah Zarah 41a d"h
>     K'Kadur, which tells us the world is round.>>
>
>
> Many ancients believed the world was flat but circular and so 
> interpreted the gemara.
> There are many other gemarot that imply that the world is flat. So 
> much so that the Shevut Yaakov (Yaakov ben Yoseph Reischer 
> (Bechofen) (1661-1733)  )
>  concluded that the earth cannot be round like the astronomers claim 
> since it is against an explicit gemara (Chagiga 12a) that the world is 
> flat !!
>
> Today that everyone knows the earth is a sphere (well almost 
> ellipsoidal) we interpret the gemara to prove this. However, in the 
> days that most people thought the
> world was flat that interpreted many gemarot in that fashion
>
>
>
> -- 
> Eli Turkel

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R' Michael Katz wrote:
> This is amazing when almost all major poskim who deal with nusach
> prefer "shebara." Starting with the gemara in Berachos, Tur, the
> Gra, Chayei Adam, Kitzur Shulchan Aruch and Mishna Berura.  Aruch
> haShulchan  also seems to prefer "shebara" since he lists it
> first.  It seems  that only a small minority of poskim quoted by
> Magen Avraham favor "shebarasa."

R' Micha Berger wrote:
> "Shebarasa" is Nusach Sepharad. See the BY. I didn't see either
> in the SA, just "borei nefashos rabos", upon which the MB offers
> the full nusach.

This illustrates an important point that escaped me until too long after I
started learning Siddur together with Shulchan Aruch. Or maybe I was
learning Mishne Brura, but in my naivete, I would look in my siddur
whenever it referenced something there.

Anyway, for a very long time I was puzzled by the frequent cases where the
siddur seemed to ignore the consensus of the poskim. Eventually I came to
realize that the poskim weren't dictating what the text ought to be; they
were reflecting the common practices of their respective communities.

This is not necessarily a willful distortion of halacha! It may well be
that this text is appropriate for residents of this area, while that text
is appropriate for residents of that area. For a long time I had wished
that the poskim would have written "This is Nusach Ashkenaz, and this is
Nusach Sefarad", or something like that. And then one day I realized that
they had been doing exactly that all along, but *I* was too inexperienced
to pick up on the subtlties of "anachnu nohagin" and "bimkomos ha'eilu".

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
NEVER eat this fish
Also discover 15 foods that DAMAGE your heart health
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/53c5da43dc48f5a430464st04vuc

 In Avodah 102-31 #1, Reb Micha wrote the following :
When it comes to appearances of sheim havayah being used by the avos, (despite
"ushemi H' lo nodati lahem"), perhaps....
I thank him for tweaking me to express my thoughts.
Rashi ? Hashem connected with Yisrael in the Exodus  - like infant bonding
with parents

 "Reason for Creation" Rashi

Raison d'?tre, a French phrase meaning "reason for existence"

?The world was created For the sake of Israel the People called Reishis?and
For the sake of Torah called Reishis ? First and Chosen the ?raison d?etre?
for Creation.

Rashi?s way was to use compact materials and thoughts. Every minor ?extra
letter or word? ? turns into a deep concept. Machzor Vitry page 148- 153
 contains windows into Rashi?s unique "Jewish-self-generated" Hashkafa.

? ONLY IN A RELATIONSHIP

?No discussion of the Ideal Pre-Creation ?middos? of the Creator is allowed
? no Rachamim without a needy being upon whom the Rachamim is bestowed; ?He
who Created with ?Rachamim? Heavens and Earth? ? Rashi says the statement
is meaningless. Cut out the misleading word Rachamim.

?RASHI ? LITERAL RACHAMIM ? PATIENCE OF A PARENT

?Hashem permanently adopted the Bnei Yisrael, all of them, until the End of
Days, guarding them from harm every moment. There was no ?mutuality? ?
Hashem made a unilateral determination that ?These are and will be my
children?. Included was determination to overlook the babyish behavior of
the children, focusing rather on the potential ?You will Worship Me Hashem
on at this Mountain?.

? Par?oh was ready to torture multitudes for his individual comfort. He saw
no real difference between his Bnei Yaakov serfs and any others. Certainly
Egyptian Idols were just as Narcissistic. No ?Other Way? of generosity
existed. At the Sneh, Hashem Named himself ?Ehkeh?Asher Ehkeh? ? I will be
committed to protecting and nurturing the Bnei Yisrael ? not only in this
crisis ? but in every crisis. Hashem?s generosity was eventually noticed by
the grateful slaves ? they named their Redeemer ?He will always care? ?
Yihyeh [Rashbam says that once the recipient got a glimmer of Hakaras Hatov
? the feedback circuit of Generous Giver and Grateful trusting recipient ?
permanently made obsolete the Unilateral Ehkeh. The goal of Ehkeh was to
enter the bilateral relationship ? so Bnei Yisrael?s name ? He is and will
be our benefactor ? becomes the Real Name of Hashem.

?The cycle of Prayer ? we Praise Hasehem, then make requests, then end by
expressing our Trust and gratitude. Our gratitude is for the determined
never flagging persistent ?the Guard of Israel will neither weaken nor
sleep?.

?Avraham Avinu sought out the Truth before hashem adopted him. Hashem ?
with one exceptional individual ? did indeed protect him, and for some
generations after that. What about taking multitudes ? 3,000,000 ? who are
exhausted by Egyptian construction projects ? and have no expectation of
imminent rescue? Only for the sake of later convincing the Bneii Yisreal to
trust him ? to Praise Hashem and accept Him as trusted parent and provider!
Even though they show no strong signs of it for the moment. Even Miriam?s
brother Moshe was focused on Yisro?s flocks, only turning to look at the
miraculous Bush. In Pshat no recognition of ?Welcome to the Geulah? was
outwardly mentioned.

?The slaves had absorbed attitudes of other Egyptians. They only slowly
realized that the unexpected never before seen Permannent Protection and
Adoption ? was for real and for ever. This turned over the World Order, and
has continued its revolutionary reshaping of the world to this day. This
new world order ? on the largest visible scale in the First greatest empire
? this permanent change ? is expressed as the Ineffable Name ? the Sheim
Hameforash. This earth-shaking development, making tyrants? absolute power
permanently fissured, had full expression in a new Divine Name ? HavYah. He
will be.

?The slaves were by and large completely unready. Only the strongest will
and determination ? Parenting Skills ? could overcome and override all the
resistance from the Older Power Brokers, such as Angels. Hashem had to
shatter the old hierarchy. That is willful determined Adoption and
parenting. Only here did the Midas Harachamim come into its own on the
Grand Scale.

?To become the trusted Parent ? Hashem wanted to redeem the Jews all by
himself. Bni Bechori Yisrael. I Myself ? not even self-naming ? will
destroy every First Born in the entire Land ? not through ordering Angels,
not Seraphim, not even Messengers, only I and no other! This was unilateral
? Paroh saw the challenge against his Despotism; Bnei Yisrael were not
consulted and questioned. They were taken over ? by Hashem ? without their
being ready. Such intervention was a permanent change in the World Balance
of Power. That willful giving ? uniquely identifies the Unique Giver ? Y  H
 V  H.

?Parshas Va?eira ? To the Patriarchs Hashem had a committed partnership.
Hashem mainly rewarded them for current dedicated service. There was little
or no debt owed to Hashem. In a sense ther was a ?Partnership? of mutual
benefit, even fi not balanced.

?Rashi added a phrase into Nishmas ?  Hashem is His (permanent) Name ?
never will he weary and weak, never will he take rest periods. Hashem Shmo
Lo Yanum Velo Yiyshan. This wording is Rahsi?s own expression. ?Hashem
means permanent giving to Bnie Yisrael -  Hashem sealed this commitment
into His Name. this permanent adoption is YVHH.

?13 Midos Rachamim: The first two of the 13 Habits of Commitment ? are ?
Hashem Hashem. Hashem makes a willful decision to be absolutely ?Giving? to
his adopted Nation.  In times of trouble, Bnei Yisreal appeal that once
again Hashem should demonstrate his Parenting mode.

?We pray He will perform  ? Powerful ? reacting to their pain and
misfortune, remembering that His parenting commitment ? Forgive in
consideration of future recognition of the bond by the Bnei Yisrael. He
does this regularly and reliably, and is called Rachum. We internalize our
awareness of Hashem?s ongoing commitment.

=====

To reconnect to the first thought -

Raison d'?tre, a French phrase meaning "reason for existence".

Ask a mother - what is her "purpose". she will likely answer - to nurture
my children.

Hashem announced to us at the Sneh that He is determined to be a parent.
The reason for the Creation - is to set the stage for Bnei Yisrael and for
the Torah.

Does Hashem want the imperfections, the as yet unfulfilled potentials? No -
Hashem clearly wants Perfect Behavior.  His desire to be a Parent - like
mother holding baby in her belly - is so strong that he tolerates
imperfections and lives with problems.

He identifies his deepest desire - to bond with Bnei Yisrael.

-- 
David Wacholder

Email: dwachol...@gmail.com
dwachol...@optonline.net
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