Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 67

Fri, 25 Apr 2014

• 1. Israelis should keep two days of Yom Tov in Chutz L'Aretz (Prof. Levine)
• 2. Chumros Appropriate for Pesach (Prof. Levine)
• 3. Re: Is there one halachic truth? (Lisa Liel)
• 4. Re: Israelis should keep two days of Yom Tov in Chutz L'Aretz (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 5. Re: Israelis should keep two days of Yom Tov in Chutz L'Aretz (Ben Waxman)
• 6. Re: Chumros Appropriate for Pesach (Kenneth Miller)
• 7. obsession with kitniyot (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi, its Kosher!)
• 8. Re: obsession with kitniyot (T6...@aol.com)
• 9. Re: obsession with kitniyot (Kenneth Miller)
• 10. Re: Israelis should keep two days of Yom Tov in Chutz L'Aretz (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: obsession with kitniyot (Zev Sero)
• 12. Re: obsession with kitniyot (Ben Waxman)
• 13. chumrot apprpriate for Pesach (Eli Turkel)
• 14. Shlissel Challah -- An Analysis (Prof. Levine)
• 15. Re: Shlissel Challah -- An Analysis (Micha Berger)
• 16. Re: Shlissel Challah -- An Analysis (Saul Guberman)
• 17. vav hahipuch (T6...@aol.com)

See http://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/pesach/israelis_chutz.pdf

YL

At 09:07 PM 4/19/2014, R. Allan Engel wrote:

>How is machine matza more oneg yomtov then hand matza?

Apparently you did not read the article at 
http://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/pesach/RJJ-soft%20matzah%202014.p
df 
May I  suggest that you do.

Using machine matzah has nothing to do with simchas Yom Tov.  It has 
to do with kashrus.  I am told that using machine matzah is common in 
Jerusalem,  because many think that there are less problems regarding 
its kashrus than with hand matzos.  Indeed,  my son spent the last 
days of Pesach with a well-know Baltimore family some years 
ago.  They eat only machine matzos the first 7 days of Pesach and 
will eat hand matzos only on Achron Shel Pesach.

YL
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On 4/18/2014 6:26 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> Well, this is probably my last Y-mi-ism... Nidah 2:7, vilna 9a.
> Yitzchaq bar Yonasan and Rav were sitting when a woman approached RYbY
> and asked him about a mar'eh. He wanted to defer, but was declined. "The
> one who the questioner came before should answer."
>
> Mar'os in particular is interesting, because more than any other topic
> it's an art, not a logical argument.
>
> But what do you make of this? Doesn't this Y-mi indicate (if not prove)
> that the point of pesaq is to rule based on legal authority, rather than
> to determine halakhah as a pre-existing absolute truth?

No, why would you think so?  All this discusses is methods for 
determining the truth of a particular instance.  It has nothing to do 
with the idea that truth is something objective that exists with or 
without our acknowledgement.

Lisa

R' YL:
See http://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/pesach/israelis_chutz.pdf
----------------- 

Your subject line is "Israelis should keep two days of Yom Tov in Chutz
L'Aretz" and you cited the above link. 
That's actually not what it says; it says they shouldn't do melachah, nor to
make tefillos b'tzibbur of Chol davening. 

KT,
MYG

It doesn't say keep two days of Yom Tov. It says:

1) Don't do work, publicly or  privately
2) On the 2nd Y-T, pray by yourself tefillat chol (but don't form a 
minyan of people praying tefillat chol, which is the same psak for 
chutniks here on second day Y-T).

On 4/20/2014 4:03 AM, Prof. Levine wrote:
> See http://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/pesach/israelis_chutz.pdf
>
> YL

The article by Rabbi Dr. Zivotofsky and Dr. Greenspan at 
http://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/pesach/RJJ-soft%20matzah%202014.p
df says, in footnote 21:

> ... Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, once asked ... Rav David Baharan
> what chumrot are appropriate for Pesach and he responded to eat
> machine matzah and to eat gebrocht because of oneg yom tov, the
> joy of the holiday.

R' Allan Engel asked on that:

> How is machine matza more oneg yomtov then hand matza?

Please note the precise language: "to eat ABC and to eat XYZ because of
oneg yom tov." Perhaps there should have been a comma before the word
"and". But even without it, I suspect that although the chumra to eat
gebrocht is because of oneg yom tov, the chumra to eat machine matzah is
because of some other reason.

Specifically, if you look at the previous paragraph of that same footnote,
he seems to be making a point that with modern machine matzah, there is "no
concern" that some of the flour or dough might be insufficiently kneaded.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
Old School Yearbook Pics
View Class Yearbooks Online Free. Search by School & Year. Look Now!
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it is worthwhile to keep in mind that Kitniyos are permitted when three
conditions are met
A - it comprises less than half of the final product
B - it is not readily identifiable, like a rice grain in an otherwise clear
soup
C - it is not added deliberately for consumption by an Ashkenasi

thus all coke and all foods using corn syrup or lecithin [chocloate]
manufactured for the non-Jewish population or even specifically
manufactured for Pesach for the Sefaradim, may be eaten LeChatChiLa by
Ashkenasim
so Halva is excluded, and a mixed salad including rice grains
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In Avodah Digest, Vol 32, Issue 64 dated 4/13/2014 
 

A number of things. On the simplest level, Pesach is difficult as it  is. 
To have to refrain from things that we could be eating to make the chag  
more enjoyable seems wrong. It's like someone's trying to make it as  
hard as possible to be mesameach.

But more than that, and I think  this is a very important point that too 
many people disregard -- I think  that kitniyot and similar things are 
responsible to a large degree for kids  going OTD.

....And you ask why we're obsessed with getting rid of this  burdensome and 
odious minhag?

Lisa

>>>>>
 
In the kosher supermarket here in Miami when I went shopping for Pesach I  
found an unbelievable array of Pesachdig non-kitniyos cakes, cookies, 
drinks,  prepared meat and poultry, fish, blintzes, pasta, pizza, cheeses, 
souffles,  kugels, salads, dips and spreads, frozen fruits and vegetables, jams, 
nuts,  candies, condiments, ice cream and Pesach hamburger rolls.  Please 
don't  tell me that Pesach is difficult.  It has never been easier, or more  
fattening (even though I don't buy most of that stuff myself).
 
For those who don't eat gebrochts the range of choices is only slightly  
smaller.  When I left the chassidish nest of my childhood and entered the  
world of a Litvak, I added one item to my seder menu:  knaidlach.  But  in my 
heart and memories I long for my childhood sedarim even though I love  
knaidlach.
 
I wonder -- hashkafically speaking, now -- if Pesachdig blintzes, pasta,  
and rolls do not defeat the entire meaning and spirit of Pesach.  
 

--Toby Katz
..
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R"n Lisa Liel wrote:

> I mean, okay, so a community agrees to refrain from eating
> certain things. But everyone in that community is physically in
> the same place. There's no sense that you're being denied
> anything. But it's 2014, and we don't live in closed communities
> any more. I'm okay going to the grocery store and knowing that
> this I can have and that I can't. That's part of being an Am
> Kadosh. We're separate and we're different, and that's okay. But
> to see delicious food that some Jews can eat just because their
> great-great-grandparents were born in a different place than
> mine... that's outrageous. It's beyond frustrating. It feels
> like being punished for my family's history.

The more I thought about this, the more I thought that a possible solution
might be to give up on Minhag Avos and try to re-establish Minhag Hamakom
as the primary guide for these sorts of things.

(I'm not even sure how Minhag Avos got such prominience anyway. If someone
moved from Iraq to Germany 500 years ago - or vice versa - wasn't it a
given that they'd assimilate the minhagim of their new home? My guess is
that at some point, groups migrated en masse to a new area which has no
Jews and no Minhag Hamakom, so they felt justified in keeping their own
minhagim. But at some point, group moved to areas which DID have
established minhagim, and for some reason they felt justified in refusing
to assimilate. That's my recollection of what happened when the Talmidei
Hagra moved to Eretz Yisrael; am I correct?)

Anyway, even if this crazy mixture of minhagim (i.e., within a geographic
area) had some justification in the beginning, it seems (in my totally
unlearned opinion) that we've taken it too far, and that some sort of shift
and reorganization might be in order. This is what RLL seems to be saying,
if I understand her correctly. It certainly sounds to me like this would
keep both the "There's nothing wrong with beans" and the "No gebrockts!"
crowds happy: Wherever you live, do what most of your neighbors do, and
everyone will have a unified minhag.

But, no, that WON'T work for some people.  In the past, we've discussed the
practice, apparently quite popular in Israel, where a shul has no fixed
nusach at all: Whoever is the shliach tzibur does his minhag, and everyone
follows along to some extent or another. I've never been part of the
decision-making process in such a shul, but it seems obvious that this is a
compromise for people who simply refuse to look at the majority of members
and establish that nusach as the minhag hamakom.

In other words, it seems to me that a significant number of people prefer
Minhag Avos for davening even though it causes a mishmash in the shul, and
yet they eould like to see a unified Minhag Hamakom for what goes into each
individual's mouth.

I don't get it. What are their priorities? What is the basis for this dichotomy?

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
The #1 Worst Carb Ever?
Click to Learn #1 Carb that Kills Your Blood Sugar (Don't Eat This!)
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/53542921c0b37292165a6st04vuc

On 19/04/2014 10:03 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
> See http://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/pesach/israelis_chutz.pdf

RYL's headline misrepresents the document.   The psak din does not say that
they have to keep two days, as is the opinion of the Alter Rebbe and the
Chacham Tzvi; it would be surprising to find so many rabbonim from different
communities paskening like that.

Rather, it merely says that they may not do melacha, whether in public or in
private, and they may not make minyanim for tefilat chol.   It doesn't say
that they shouldn't daven tefilat chol, just that they shouldn't make minyanim
for it.  The implication is that they should daven in private.

That they may not do melacha in public is clear, lechol hade'os.  Melacha in
private is a machlokes.  The Taz and Maharshal permit it.  Evidently these
rabbonim don't hold that way.  I haven't seen anywhere that minyanim for
tefilat chol are forbidden, but the objection seems obvious enough.  The
achronim probably never even contemplated an entire minyan of Bnei EY in the
same place.

-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

On 20/04/2014 4:06 PM, Kenneth Miller wrote:
> (I'm not even sure how Minhag Avos got such prominience anyway. If
> someone moved from Iraq to Germany 500 years ago - or vice versa -
> wasn't it a given that they'd assimilate the minhagim of their new
> home? My guess is that at some point, groups migrated en masse to a
> new area which has no Jews and no Minhag Hamakom, so they felt
> justified in keeping their own minhagim. But at some point, group
> moved to areas which DID have established minhagim, and for some
> reason they felt justified in refusing to assimilate. That's my
> recollection of what happened when the Talmidei Hagra moved to Eretz
> Yisrael; am I correct?)

AFAIK it started with Grushei Sfarad, who flooded the Mediterranean,
including EY, and insisted on keeping their Sefaradi communities and minhagim
instead of assimilating into the local communities.  That's how EY suddenly
became Sefaradi.

-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

There seems to be several groups pushing to kill the minhag:

1) People who claim (a la Machon Shilo) that there is a Minhag Eretz 
Yisrael and qitniyot goes against it. These people have their own nusach 
for Tefila.
2) People who marry sefardiot (dafka) and make some sort of compromise 
regarding the custom
3) BTs who decide that it isn't incumbent upon them to accept the custom.
4) FFBs who contend that the whole thing is a mistake.
5) Those (of various backgrounds) who can't stand not being able to eat 
what others can eat (I am not sure if this is really different from #4).

Each category is different and (IMO) has to be looked at differently. 
How many of the above are adamant about maintaining their shul minhagim 
come hell or high water I don't know.

Ben

On 4/20/2014 10:06 PM, Kenneth Miller wrote:
> In other words, it seems to me that a significant number of people
> prefer Minhag Avos for davening even though it causes a mishmash in
> the shul, and yet they eould like to see a unified Minhag Hamakom for
> what goes into each individual's mouth.

> How is machine matza more oneg yomtov then hand matza?

cheaper?

> Rav Shmuel Auerbach related (Orach David, Jerusalem, 5771, page 106)
> that his father, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, once asked the well-known
> Yerushalayim tzaddik (and son-in-law of Rav Akiva Yosef Shlesinger) Rav
> David Baharan what chumrot are appropriate for Pesach and he responded
> to eat machine matzah and to eat gebrocht because of oneg yom tov, the joy of
> the holiday. (The Chacham Zvi is similarly quoted (see end Sha'arei Tshuva
> 460:10) that avoiding gebrocht is a chumra that impinges on simchat yom
> tov).

OTOH it is brought that RSZA felt that anything that looked like a chametz
type food is assur under kitniyot (ie they can be confused with chametz).
Thus RSZA would be against all the modern attempts to have cereals or fancy
cakes that are not chametz.


Rabbi Jonathans Sacks has an interesting article in the latest Torah to go
http://www.yutorah.org/togo/pesach/

He brings from the Pew survey that Jews in the US tend to be much less
religious that the general population in the US (contrary to the assumption
that Jews behave like the general population).

In his own personal contacts with both religious and non-religious Jews
they ranked holidays by hardship as Pesach - Succot - Shavuot. When he
asked about observance he also found the order to be Pesach - Succot -
Shavuot.

He concludes that making things easy does not necessarily lead to more
observance. For example Yom Kippur is the hardest but probably has the
largest number of Jewswho fast.

-- 
Eli Turkel

 From http://tinyurl.com/k7hj3jd

As far as the sources for Schlissel Challah, Alfassa writes as follows:

    While the custom is said to be mentioned in the writings of
    Avraham Yehoshua Heshel (the Apter Rav 1748-1825) and in the
    Taamei ha-Minhagim (1891), there is no one clear source for shlissel
    challah. And while people will say there is a passuq attributed to it,
    there is not. And, even if there were, a passuq that can be linked to
    the practice is not the same as a source The idea of baking shlissel
    challah is not from the Torah; its not in the Tannaitic, Amoraitic,
    Savoraitic, Gaonic or Rishonic literature. Rabbi Shlomo Aviner of
    Israels Yeshivat Ateret Yerushalayim said that while baking challah
    with a key in it is not forbidden, there is no meaning in doing so.

    While Alfassa is correct in his assertion that the custom is not
    found in the writings of the Rishonim or earlier, for some reason
    he fails to point out the Chassidic origin of Schlissel Challah.
    As a general rule, we do not find Chassidish customs in the Rishonim
    because the movement itself only began in 1740.

----------
Based on this will people agree that the baking of shlissel challah is
a part of what I call the "New Religion"?
RSRH makes is clear that Judaism is not a religion. From

http://people.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/363_Transp/Orthodoxy/SRHirsch.html

    Comparisons are futile. Judaism is not a religion, the synagogue is
    not a church, and the rabbi is not a priest. Judaism is not a mere
    adjunct to life: it comprises all of life. To be a Jew is not a mere
    part, it is the sum total of our task in life

Thus, IMO, the New Religion is not Judaism. YL

On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 11:59:16AM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
:  From http://tinyurl.com/k7hj3jd

You posted this last year.

I replied at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol31/v31n057.shtml#08
R' Jeffrey Sacks responded at http://torahmusings.com/2011/04/shliss-challah
which I quoted then. RSDA also miquotes me in his article which is problematic
on two levels:
(1) he cited me as though my opinion adds any gravitas to his point,
misleading people who never heard of "Rabbi Micha Berger" and thinks
he's quoting an authority;
(2) he uses the quote to "prove" something I don't believe.

The rest RJS's list of other problems with RSA's "proofs" is similarly
compelling.

So, it's a newer minhag. That doesn't in and of itself make it un-Jewish.

Both R/Prof Levine and I have problems with practices that are based on
using segulos as sympathetic magic. OTOH, I presume I am not alone in
accepting Rosh haShanah's simanei milsa as Jewish; segulos as tangible
spurs to kavanah, reminders to turn to the Borei are very much part
of Judaism.

Schlissel challah invokes the first blatt of Mes Taanis, reminding
the farmer bringing in his grains Who holds the mafteiach/chos of
rain and parnasah.

(I also suggersts this was a secondary motive, giving meaning to a
practice that was necessary for baking reasons.)

: Based on this will people agree that the baking of shlissel challah is
: a part of what I call the "New Religion"?

I see no connection between the two topics beyond the word "new".

Or are you saying that the old religion had no process of minhag by
which practice grows and evolves?

: RSRH makes is clear that Judaism is not a religion. From
: http://people.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/363_Transp/Orthodoxy/SRHirsch.html
: 
:     Comparisons are futile. Judaism is not a religion, the synagogue is
:     not a church, and the rabbi is not a priest. Judaism is not a mere
:     adjunct to life: it comprises all of life. To be a Jew is not a mere
:     part, it is the sum total of our task in life

Few religions view themselves as a set of rites sans values or lifestyle.
Halakhah makes this particularly true of Judaism, but lehavdil the
parallel could be said of sharia and Islam. And Xians would also say
theirs is not a religion for the same reason; Google gives plenty of
evidence. Priests? Buddhism itself has no theology; it layers itself
over the pre-excisting paganism as it spreads.

RSRH's statement apparently used a German term that doesn't mean the
same thing as "religion" does in 20th and 21st cent English.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 9th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Gevurah: When is strict justice
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            most appropriate?

No, it is not part of a new religion.  Are new minhagim not allowed?  Did
the Yahadus have to stop evolving and no new minhagim, chumros,kulos, and
SHuT have to stop with the period of the Rishonim?

It is plain to see that Yahadus moves in different ways in different places
and different time periods.


Saul


On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 11:59 AM, Prof. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu> wrote:

>  From http://tinyurl.com/k7hj3jd
>
>
> Based on this will people agree that the baking of shlissel challah is
> a part of what I call the "New Religion"?
> RSRH makes is clear that Judaism is not a religion.
>
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My brother-in-law asked me to find out for him the rules of vav  hahipuch.  
Since he is fairly knowledgeable about dikduk I guess he is  asking for 
something more complex than the simple rule "changes future to past  and vice 
versa." If someone would like to write out the rules or point me  to a sefer 
that does so, that would be appreciated.  Thank you.
 

--Toby Katz
..
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