Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 114

Wed, 15 Aug 2012

• 1. Re: The Talmud?s Many Demons (Lisa Liel)
• 2. Canceling Reservations (cantorwolb...@cox.net)
• 3. Re: The Talmud's Many Demons (Rich, Joel)
• 4. Re: The Talmud?s Many Demons (Rafi Hecht)
• 5. Re: Canceling Reservations (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: The Talmud's Many Demons (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: Shayala of Onaah (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: The Talmud?s Many Demons (Zev Sero)
• 9. More on The Talmud's Many Demons (Prof. Levine)
• 10. More on The Talmud's Many Demons (Prof. Levine)
• 11. Re: rega = sha`a / 58888 (Simon Montagu)

There's a big difference between skipping the topic and ridiculing it 
the way this guy does.

Lisa


On 8/14/2012 12:48 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
> From http://tinyurl.com/9vwk7t9
>
>
>       *Sages in a superstitious age accepted the existence of
>       invisible devils and the use of magic to render them visible*
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Rabbi A. Miller spent years giving shiurim that went through all of 
> Shas.  He was not deterred by topics that some might feel should not 
> be discussed in public due to their "delicate" nature.  However, there 
> were times when he did skip some topics.  He would say, "I cannot 
> teach what I do not understand, so now turn the page to ......"   IIRC 
> some of the topics that he skipped were the Gemara's discussion of 
> Zugos and discussions like the one referred to about demons.
>
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If no policy is specified then it's understood that one may cancel at any time.

Understood by whom??  By the Torah?  Have you forgotten that when a commitment
is made, either by word or by any other means, we are bound to our word? Obviously,
it there is a written policy, then you would not be going against your word because that
would be like a b'li neder. However, if no policy is specified, then you are bound by your
word unless you have specified that you have the right to cancel.

On 8/14/2012 12:48 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
From http://tinyurl.com/9vwk7t9
Sages in a superstitious age accepted the existence of invisible devils and the use of magic to render them visible

________________________________
Rabbi A. Miller spent years giving shiurim that went through all of Shas. 
He was not deterred by topics that some might feel should not be discussed
in public due to their "delicate" nature.  However, there were times when
he did skip some topics.  He would say, "I cannot teach what I do not
understand, so now turn the page to ......"   IIRC some of the topics that
he skipped were the Gemara's discussion of Zugos and discussions like the
one referred to about demons.
===================================================================================
There's a big difference between skipping the topic and ridiculing it the way this guy does.

Lisa
===============================================================================
I'm not sure he was ridiculing, but the issues raised in this paragraph are excellent Avodah topics:
"To my modern mind, there is something not just strange but scandalous
about this. It shows that the rabbis of the Talmud could be at the same
time geniuses of jurisprudence and men of their age, which was a
pre-scientific and superstitious age. Most troubling, perhaps, is the way
the rabbis never try to explain how these countless demons fit into a world
picture where God is the source of all law and power. Did he create them,
and if so, why? It is the taken-for-grantedness of demons and magic, the
way they present no theological challenge, that seems most foreign to me in
this Talmudic discussion. Perhaps I will discover a deeper treatment of the
subject as I read."
1. I don't know why it would be scandalous at all - they were dealing  (according to my mesorah) with the "science" of their times.
2. HKB"H creating demons, angels etc..	Other than the mussar of "Let us
make man", I have often wondered about the theology of angels and
demons-perhaps they are psychological drives etc. but there is certainly
what to talk about!
KT
Joel Rich
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Nice article! Some points:

1. If you look in the Talmud some more, you will see instances of demonry
all over the place. One of my personal favorites is where R' Acha
(Kiddushin 29b) was in the study hall when a scary demon appeared to him in
the form of a seven-headed serpent while he was praying. Each time he bowed
one of the heads fell off (which leads one to believe that it was the
Shmoneh Esrei where one bows a total of 7 times).
2. When Gd created the universe he had to create an equal amount of evil to
balance the good. Hence idol-worship and demons.
3. The Sefer Yetzirah (Aryeh Kaplan's edition) mentions that after the
episode with Cain and Abel (Kayin and Hevel), Adam and Eve separated from
each other for 130 years. During that time Adam bonded with Lilith to
create the demons of the world. Clearly there was a necessity to maintain
such a balance especially when "right and wrong" were not clearly defined
since to Cain, killing was perfectly all right (when it was never done
before in recorded history).
4. The Israelites were all prophets after the revelation on Mt. Sinai.
Still, they worshipped idols, as was evident during the episode of Baal
Peor. Also, during the first Temple when they had everything and were on a
high level of holiness, they still worshipped idols and this was one of the
three causes for the first Temple to be destroyed. Clearly, there was
something to be said.
5. Chanoch (Enos) was taken away relatively early (he died at 205 when
everyone was living beyond 900 years of age). One of the reasons was
because he inadvertently introduced idolatry/witchcraft by teaching that if
one worships an agent of Gd (such as the sun, a tree, etc.) with the intent
on focusing on the objects' creator than it's as if one worships Gd. People
soon forgot the "intent" bit and worshipped the objects as entities in and
of their own.
6. The Talmud mentions how the Rabbis prayed for the urge of idol-worship
to be taken away from the Jewish people. As a direct consequence, when the
urge for idol-worship went away, so did prophecy from normal beings (and
went to fools and children).
7. Even today in certain South American and African countries there are
clear instances of real magic and witchcraft. Don't understimate the
unknown.


Best Regards,

Rafi Hecht
*rhe...@gmail.com* <rhe...@gmail.com>
416-276-6925
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On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 1:48 PM, Prof. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu> wrote:

>  From http://tinyurl.com/9vwk7t9
>
> *Sages in a superstitious age accepted the existence of invisible devils
> and the use of magic to render them visible*Here is a *baraita*attributed to Abba Benjamin: ?If the eye would be granted permission to
> see, no creature would be able to stand in the face of the demons that
> surround it.? We are all, apparently, constantly beset by invisible devils,
> and the rabbis of the Gemara go on to expand on the proposition: ?Abaye
> said: They are more numerous than us, and they stand about us like a ditch
> around a mound.? ?Rav Huna said: Each one of us has a thousand to his left
> and ten thousand to his right.?
>
> The idea that we see only a fragment of reality, that our senses are not
> designed to perceive everything that is, has a surprisingly modern ring to
> it. Abba Benjamin?s dictum <Snip> Taken as metaphor, the idea that we are
> surrounded by invisible powers is not hard to accept.
>
> The problem is that the rabbis did not intend it as a metaphor. This
> becomes clear from the ensuing discussion of the effects of demons and the
> ways of making them visible. The evil these demons work is not metaphysical
> or catastrophic; it is trivial and bothersome, making them seem more like
> naughty sprites than devils. When your knees become tired, when your
> clothes wear out from rubbing, when you feel squeezed in the crowd at a
> public lecture?this is all, according to Rava, the work of demons. And
> there are magical ways of making demons show themselves. All you have to do
> is find a black female cat who is the firstborn daughter of a firstborn
> mother, burn her placenta to ashes, grind the ashes, and put some of them
> in your eye, and you will be able to see the demons. Be sure, however, to
> place the remainder of the ashes in a sealed iron tube, lest the demons
> steal it from you.
>
> See the above URL for more.
> ------------------------------
> Rabbi A. Miller spent years giving shiurim that went through all of Shas.
> He was not deterred by topics that some might feel should not be discussed
> in public due to their "delicate" nature.  However, there were times when
> he did skip some topics.  He would say, "I cannot teach what I do not
> understand, so now turn the page to ......"   IIRC some of the topics that
> he skipped were the Gemara's discussion of Zugos and discussions like the
> one referred to about demons.
>
> YL
>
>
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On 14/08/2012 2:44 PM, cantorwolb...@cox.net wrote:
>> If no policy is specified then it's understood that one may cancel at any time.

> Understood by whom??  By the Torah?  Have you forgotten that when a commitment
> is made, either by word or by any other means, we are bound to our word? Obviously,
> it there is a written policy, then you would not be going against your word because that
> would be like a b'li neder. However, if no policy is specified, then you are bound by your
> word unless you have specified that you have the right to cancel.

It's understood by everybody, because that is the prevailing practice in
the industry.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

On 14/08/2012 3:32 PM, Rich, Joel quoted some author in Tablet Magazine:
> Most troubling, perhaps, is the way the rabbis never try to explain
> how these countless demons fit into a world picture where God is the
> source of all law and power. Did he create them, and if so, why?

What is this person talking about?  Chazal were very clear that Hashem
created the sheidim.   Why did He create them?  That's the same question
as why He created anything else.  Why panthers, or pinecones, or Pluto?

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

My wife made a comment that, translated into the jargon, comes out
something like this:

The whole reason why no one assumed "if it sounds too good to be true,
it must be" is because weirdly low prices are at times available through
agents and web sites. So, do airline tickets have a well-defined sha'ar,
from which to measure the 1/6 to define onaas mamon?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On 14/08/2012 4:37 PM, Rafi Hecht wrote:
> Chanoch (Enos) was taken away relatively early (he died at 205

You mean 365.

> when everyone was living beyond 900 years of age). One of the reasons
> was because he inadvertently introduced idolatry/witchcraft by
> teaching that if one worships an agent of Gd (such as the sun, a tree,
> etc.) with the intent on focusing on the objects' creator than it's as
> if one worships Gd. People soon forgot the "intent" bit and worshipped
> the objects as entities in and of their own.

Chanoch is not Enosh!   It was Enosh in whose days they started worshipping
AZ; the chumash makes no connection between Chanoch and AZ.


As for stories of demons in the Talmud, my favourite is Yosef Shida, whose
existence proves that demons are not some sort of evil creature, though many
of them may do bad.  There is such a thing as Shedin Yehuda'in, "Jewish"
demons, who do good.  In Yosef's case, he transmitted Torah that was said
in one yeshivah to another the same day, filling a niche that would one day
be taken over by the telephone and then by the internet.


-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

>Earlier I posted some material on this topic from an article at 
>http://tinyurl.com/9vwk7t9

Readers may be interested in what RSRH wrote on the subject of 
Aggadita and related topics.

See

Rav Shamshon Raphael Hirsch on Aggadita I
    <http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/hirsch.pdf>

Rav Shamshon Raphael Hirsch on Aggadita II (Original Hebrew article
from Hama'ayan)
    <http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/hirschAgadaHebrew_ll.pdf>

Rav Shamshon Raphael Hirsch on Aggadita III (Translation as it first
appeared in Light Magazine)
    <http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/hirschAgadaEnglish.pdf>

YL

>Earlier I posted some material on this topic from an article at 
>http://tinyurl.com/9vwk7t9

Readers may be interested in what RSRH wrote on the subject of 
Aggadita and related topics.

See

Rav Shamshon Raphael Hirsch on Aggadita I
    <http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/hirsch.pdf>

Rav Shamshon Raphael Hirsch on Aggadita II (Original Hebrew article
from Hama'ayan)
    <http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/hirschAgadaHebrew_ll.pdf>

Rav Shamshon Raphael Hirsch on Aggadita III (Translation as it first
appeared in Light Magazine)
    <http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/hirschAgadaEnglish.pdf>

YL

On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 12:49 AM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> I would also point out that all this speculation means little to most
> of us. This aggadita is definitely metaphor -- we're talking about how
> long HQBH gets angry. Neither anger nor time really apply. So, first
> explain the basic idea, what Chazal are trying to convey by saying He
> gets angry daily but for a very short time, and then we can discuss the
> meaning of the size of the unit being used for "very short". But I'm
> not past step 1 yet.
>
>
I'm coming from a slightly different direction: I'm interested in the
number not for quantification but for what you might call "literary
reasons" (the weasel words and scare quotes are in recognition that limudei
kodesh can't be fully understood by literary analysis alone, but IMHO, and
I realize some people will strongly reject this, techniques from literary
analysis can be valuable in limudei kodesh also).

The questions behind my question are things like where are Hazal coming
from when they chose this specific number and not some other number? What
connections with other inyanim does the number create? For example, what is
it saying if the number of rega'im in an hour is equal to the number of
verses in the Torah, as RMB brought from R. Isaiah Berlin? For me, trying
to answer these questions comes before what RMB categorizes as step 1 in
understanding the aggada.
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