Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 86

Fri, 06 Jul 2012

• 1. Re: Who is a Talmid Chacham (Micha Berger)
• 2. Torah Justice (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 3. number of mitzvos/ (Harvey Benton)
• 4. Re: The Main Idea of Judaism (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: The Main Idea of Judaism (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 6. Re: number of mitzvos/ (Micha Berger)
• 7. single mother (Eli Turkel)
• 8. Re: Who is a Talmid Chacham (Ben Waxman)
• 9. Re: The Main Idea of Judaism (Akiva Miller)
• 10. Re: The Main Idea of Judaism (T6...@aol.com)
• 11. Re: The Main Idea of Judaism (Rich, Joel)
• 12. Re: The Main Idea of Judaism (David Riceman)
• 13. Re: Mechallel Shabbos to destroy a non-kosher phone (David Riceman)
• 14. Re: The Main Idea of Judaism (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: Who is a Talmid Chacham (Zev Sero)
• 16. Re: Who is a Talmid Chacham (Micha Berger)

On Fri, Jul 06, 2012 at 07:30:21AM +0300, Doron Beckerman wrote:
:> the Shofetim

: Who, by and large, were not the greatest Talmidei Chachamim of their times.

Yiftach bedoro keShmuel bedoro.

:> Shaul

: Hashem explicitly appointed him as the best there was.

... despite it interfering with his talmud Torah.

:> David haMelekh

: See Rashi Sanhedrin 49a - "Ilmalei David Shehayah Osek BaTorah, Lo Asah
: Yoav Milchamah, Aval Zechuso Shel David Omedes Lo LeYoav BeMilchamosav Shel
: David."

In some wars. Shemuel I 19:8, "vayeitzei David bayilachem baPelishtim",
predate his appointment. II 8:1, "vayakh David es Pelishtim". v. 2
"Vayach es Moav". Etc.. for a number of battles through that pereq.

"Lo sivneh bayis liShmi, ki damim Rabim shafakhta artzah lefanai"
-Divrei haYamim I 22:8.

He went to enough wars to be disqualified from bulding bayis rishon.

:> R' Aqiva -- including avos of their respective Batei Din haGadol -- are
:> also relevent.

: Sources?

Sources that a number of the Shofetim, Shaul, and David were av beis din?
(Or that the mashiach will be?) Or that they went to war?

The head of Shelomo's guard was his predecessor as av beis din --
Behnayahu. Admittedly that's not formal war, but still seems relevant.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man can aspire to spiritual-moral greatness
mi...@aishdas.org        which is seldom fully achieved and easily lost
http://www.aishdas.org   again. Fulfillment lies not in a final goal,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      but in an eternal striving for perfection. -RSRH

I share this website with both Areivim and Avodah; there are two distinct
issues here, both worthy of discussion: 1) The state of Batei Dinim in
general, and the sociological and social aspects of the deficiencies in the
system, as amply documented in the website (for Areivim), and 2) The
Halachic viability of such a site and whether it is possible to fix the
system in a way consistent with both Torah law and DDmD (for Avodah). 

 

http://www.torahjustice.com/index.html 

 

(As it happens, I have (temporarily) unsubscribed from Areivim (I needed the
time). I would appreciate if people responding to the thread there would cc:
mgl...@gmail.com.)

 

KT,

MYG

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20120706/2ae2fd9a/attachment-0001.htm>

there has been much discussion on the sh'e lo asani isha/goy aspect
of some of the berachot. i am wondering if the key to what
chazal were/is thinking, has to do with the inverse relationship
of mitzvos that one has to do.......

On 5/07/2012 10:22 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> For example, why mashiach more than "Rabbi Chizqiyah beshem Rav: Asid
> adam litein din vecheshbon al kol shera'as einav velo akhal"? (Closing
> of Y-mi Qiddushin.)

I don't understand the question.  How does the fact that a person will
have to account for something turn it into a goal, let alone a "main
idea of Judaism"?

"Lehavi liymos hamashiach" is in a sense the ultimate goal of everything
we do, because that is what the world was created for.  But that's not a
very practical "main idea".  It doesn't really affect what we do.  We
would have to do the same mitzvos in the same way, even if there were no
Moshiach at the end of it all.  So calling it the "main idea of Judaism",
while *true* on at least one level, doesn't strike me as all that helpful.
And in some hands it can obscure all sorts of intermediate goals and
"main ideas" that ultimately lead to that goal.


-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

R' MB:
Of more interest to me is how various members of the chevrah go about
identifying the/a central theme(s). After all, we're talking about humans
identifying Divine Will -- there will be no One True Answer. Just many
models, simplifactions whittled down to fit in our own puny minds.
And each mind being different, this means multiple derakhim, each pursuing
its own way of looking at the central problem -- "al pi darko".
---------------------


v'laavod, v'laamod b'nisayon."

KT,
MYG

On Thu, Jul 05, 2012 at 03:45:28PM -0700, Harvey Benton wrote:
: there has been much discussion on the sh'e lo asani isha/goy aspect
: of some of the berachot. i am wondering if the key to what
: chazal were/is thinking, has to do with the inverse relationship
: of mitzvos that one has to do.......

See prior threads:
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=F#FALSE%20TEACHING
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=S#SHELO%20ASANI%20
ISHA

As RZL has pointed out in the past, this is explicitly stated by R'
Yehudah, who was the talmid of R' Meir, the author of the berakhos. (Y-mi
Berakhos 9:3, the conclusion is repeated also by Rashi on Menachos
43b). For some reason RZL says it as R' Yehudah himself being the author,
I forgot his source.

I noted its parallel to a statement in the Xian bible, where Paul (a
younger contemporary of R' Meir) denies the need for mitzvos and along
the way denies the same 3 distinctions in the same order. Sadly, such
external proof carries more weight with Jews of the sort who would rile
against alleged O misogyny.

The Bach says the reason why the berakhos are in the negative is because
if you would open with "shelo asani Yisrael", you already thanked G-d
for getting the full sweep of mitzvos and the other berakhos would
be levatalah.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is equipped with such far-reaching vision,
mi...@aishdas.org        yet the smallest coin can obstruct his view.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

due to some questions I am expanding my previous post on using the sperm of
the father and he dies from the article in techumim by . Dr Steinberg

1. If they collected sperm from the husband and he died immediately after
the fertilization of his wife but before pregnancy then
Noda Beyeuda - the child is the son/daughter for all halachot except
yibum/halichatza since the father was not alive when his wife became
pregnant

Many (Keen Orah, Chatam Sofer, Shoel Umeshiv, RSZA ec) disagree and say
that introducing the sperm into the wife  stops the yibum process even
though she became pregnant a few days later.

2 If the sperm was frozen and used after the death of the husband
Chavat Binyamin and  R. Yisraeli hold that there is no halachic connection
between the donor and the child and so the mother requires yibum or
chalitza when needed.
RSZA the child inherits the "father" but he agrees that the mother requires
yibum

Extracting semen after the death of the husband
R. Halperin allows it based on responsa of R. Unterman and R. Herzog. Of
course the same disagreement of R. Yisraeli and RSZA holds.

As I wrote before R. Dr. Steinberg holds that the special circumstances
allow a single mother even if there is no halachic father and the social
problems.

The rest of the article talks about cloning and the status of fatherhood.

 note that most of the sources are from previous Techumum issues and they
are one of the few places that deal with these issues.
There are almost no modern day poskim that deal with the issues of cloning.

-- 
Eli Turkel
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20120706/a4e99245/attachment-0001.htm>

I would assume that the TC's learning would have kept the thief away in 
the first place, that the thief would "choose" to rob the house of the 
am ha-aretz.

What I want to know is if someone has a patur from paying a tax (or 
going to the IDF) BECAUSE his learning protects him, than what happens 
when he says, clearly by his actions, that he needs (and in fact 
demands) the same protection as everyone else.

Ben

On 7/6/2012 7:30 AM, Doron Beckerman wrote:
>
> >> (a) and (b) aren't entirely separable... Nobody claimed (b) in the 
> absolute terms you are putting it <<
> I disagree, in the terms that I put it. Which people here *did* 
> claim, or at least imply, by asking why Yeshiva boys run away 
> when rockets are raining down on their Dalet Amos. The equivalent of 
> this by theft is a thief walking into the house of a Talmid Chacham 
> and the TC saying - ha, ha, you can't steal from me, I'm a Talmid 
> Chacham!
>

R' Chaim Manaster suggested:

> The Main Idea of Judaism
>
> I think the answer is trivially simple! It is to do the rotzon
> of HKB"H at all times to the best of your ability. All the
> rest is detail and that is far from trivial.

I have long felt exactly that way, and I've often quoted Devarim 10:12-13 in support of it:

"Now, Israel, what does Hashem ask of you? Only that you respect Hashem
your G-d, go in His ways, love Him, and serve Hashem your G-d with all your
heart and all your soul, keeping Hashem's mitzvos and laws, which I command
you today, for your own good."

That's all. Just that one thing. No biggie.

Well, yeah, the details are indeed far from trivial. But still, they're just details. Tze ul'mad.

R' Micha Berger answered:

> 1- Tell me how you view Hashem's goal for a human, so that
> one can plan how to conform to His Will for them?
> 2- What I find more interesting, because #1 has SO MANY valid
> answers, all of which are necessarily incomplete, how would
> you reach an answer to #1?

(Disclaimer: I am not necessarily disagreeing. I'll just say why that answer doesn't work FOR ME.)

I think you're being too grandiose. Let Hashem worry about what His goal is
for me as an individual, or for us as a group. My responsibility, at any
given point in time, is to figure out what He expects of me right NOW.
Situations change, and even I change, and what He'll want of me tomorrow
may differ from what He expected yesterday. It is constantly in flux, and
my job is to keep my eyes on the ikar: Only that I respect Hashem my G-d,
go in His ways, love Him, and serve Him. Just that one thing.

I have often wondered if this pasuk might be the source for the concept of
"osek b'mitzvah, patur min hamitzvah", which might be loosely translated
as, "At any given moment, as long as you're doing what HaShem wants you to
do, don't worry about missed opportunities for other mitzvos, because there
really is only one mitzvah, namely, to do His ratzon."

I think that what I'm saying is similar to what R' Doron Beckerman wrote:

> And, thus, the GRA there circles back to this: "Nowadays we
> should not go with grand and phenomenal ideas (Gedolos
> Veniflaos). We must only ascertain  that our actions should
> be unto Hashem, meaning, in accordance with His Will...

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
5 Diet Pills that Work
2012's Top 5 Weight Loss Pills. Updated Consumer Ratings. Free Report.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4ff6d4adc5ca254ad2934st53vuc

Ta'amu ure'u ki tov Hashem
 

--Toby Katz
=============
Romney -- good  values, good family, good hair


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20120706/4a80b26b/attachment-0001.htm>

I think you're being too grandiose. Let Hashem worry about what His goal is
for me as an individual, or for us as a group. My responsibility, at any
given point in time, is to figure out what He expects of me right NOW.
Situations change, and even I change, and what He'll want of me tomorrow
may differ from what He expected yesterday. It is constantly in flux, and
my job is to keep my eyes on the ikar: Only that I respect Hashem my G-d,
go in His ways, love Him, and serve Him. Just that one thing.

I have often wondered if this pasuk might be the source for the concept of
"osek b'mitzvah, patur min hamitzvah", which might be loosely translated
as, "At any given moment, as long as you're doing what HaShem wants you to
do, don't worry about missed opportunities for other mitzvos, because there
really is only one mitzvah, namely, to do His ratzon."

=============================================
But of course even when one is oseik bmitzvah  (imho) he needs to be not
100% engrossed since he needs to be thinking if this is truly the ratzon
hashem (e.g. what if this mitzvah could be done by others, what if I could
do it later but there's  another mitzvah available that I can do now but
not later.....)  IMHO it's the continual effort to figure out what his
ratzon is that is the key.
KT
Joel Rich

THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.

The Rambam says that malchus shamayim is "ha'ikkar hagadol shehakol 
talui bo", which one can plausibly render as "the main idea of Judaism", 
but he also says that God wants people to have free will.

So one can certainly construe the question as what does "malchus 
shamayim" mean.  Like almost all rishonim, the Rambam did not think that 
God has determined every detail of the future; he believed that the laws 
of nature left room for randomness.  My take on the Rambam is that he 
thought it meant the world has a unifying order, unlike, say, the 
Zoroastrians or Hegel who thought that the world consists of struggle 
between contradictory themes.

Most people here seem to construe the question as normative: what does 
Judaism expect of people? I think the Rambam would disagree with all of 
the suggestions people have made here (as would Kohelles: "al tihyeh 
tzaddik harbeih").  He would have taken the shvil hazahav as the main 
idea.  The Rambam did think that striving to perform all of one's 
actions for God's sake was an ideal to be strived for, but quite 
difficult to achieve ("ein kol hacham zocheh lah"), but that is very 
different from "The Main Idea of Judaism".

What I tell my son is that there are minimum standards that everyone 
must strive to perform, but beyond that one has quite a bit of 
flexibility about how much of an oveid hashem one desires to be, and how 
one immementizes that desire.

David Riceman

RAF:

<<Well, by definition, someone who disobays intentionally is also not 
accepting the regularting authority.>>

He could be losing milhemmes hayetzer while accepting the authority.

David Riceman

On Thu, Jul 05, 2012 at 10:37:24PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>> For example, why mashiach more than "Rabbi Chizqiyah beshem Rav: Asid
>> adam litein din vecheshbon al kol shera'as einav velo akhal"? (Closing
>> of Y-mi Qiddushin.)

> I don't understand the question.  How does the fact that a person will
> have to account for something turn it into a goal, let alone a "main
> idea of Judaism"?

You're repeating my question: I asked the chevrah how they decide what's
a main goal, and what isn't.

If R/D Gidon Rothstein (CC-ed) is correct in the need for a sefer titled
"We're Missing the Point: What's Wrong with the Orthodox Jewish Community
and How to Fix It" <http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1602802025/aishdas>,
how would you find "the point"?

To be more loyal to my earlier phrasings.... I am assuming that deep down,
all authentic descriptions of the main idea of Judaism are describing
the same thing, but focusing on different aspects. That perforce, any
Divine Idea will be only represented as simplified models, "2D shadows"
of something too complex for human intellect. And therefore different
people, given their neti'os, will find different aspects. Two people
standing at the foot of a mountain but at different sides will end up
heading in different directions to reach the same peak. But they are
all answering "mi yaaleh beHar H'?"

> "Lehavi liymos hamashiach" is in a sense the ultimate goal of everything
> we do, because that is what the world was created for....

Unless the world were created for something enabled or made much easier by
the mashiach's arrival.

Classically, chassidus defined the main idea of Judaism in terms of
deveiqus. Perhaps RCM's answer of "shevisi H' lenegdi tamid" is meant
in this sense. RBW cited ("(?)" noted) the Sefar Emes that the main
idea is "to batel himself to Hashem or to the Am or to the Torah." But
I have always thought of that in terms of Anokhius getting in the way
of deveiqus. A derived value, even if it's the hard part of the job.

Litvaks and Yekkes talk in terms of sheleimus. Sheleimus only half
answers the question. The point is to refine one's tzelem E-lokim,
to ever reach for the ideal. So then, what's the ideal? What does
a shaleim, a tamim, look like?

RSRH's "sheleimus" is ennoblement, in term of human creativity and
mastery of his world -- Yefetic high culture fused with Semitic calling.

Novhardok, which taught bitachon and dependency did so through the route
of becoming a nidvaq -- a definition of sheleimus. Which is why N fit
within the Mussar Movement.

Many suggested the "main idea" is to be meitiv others. RCM writes:
> I guess for for another try I will go back to basic notions from the
> sefer Derech H' So, the purpose of the bria is so HKB'H can be maitiv
> lezuloso....

And:
> It just occurs to me to add...
> that if the central theme is do Tikun Olom so hatava from HKB'H
> can flow to you, the central theme of tikun olam is to emulate HKB'H
> (ma hu rachum af ata rachum etc).

Which turns hatavah into sheleimus terms, in the sense of "af ata". IOW,
the work isn't only DOING good but BECOMING a meitiv.

>                                  The tikun olam is not just a means to
> "earn" ones keep, but it is also the mechanism that enables the hatava to
> flow. The emulation creates a sheychus and allows the relationship to H'
> (the flow of hatava) to exist, the greater the emulation (the more G-D
> like), the greater the relationship, the greater the hatava.

And this aspect is in deveiqus terms.

Which may just mean the classic East European fork in the hashkafic road
shouldn't be overemphasized.

My own derekh, at least the past several years, has also been
hatavah-based. Repeatedly presenting RSSkop's haqdamah, and repeating
looking for new ways to approach it, has convinced me of the centrality
of this idea. In this perspective, the main thrust of MBALM is to make
sure one is providing hatavah as the Manufacturer defines it, and that
one maximizes the ability to do so. As per a snippet by R Dr Nathan
Birnbaum that I'm working on translating, in which Daas, Rachamim,
Tif'eres becomes: Knowledge of G-d, being the stream of ahavah from the
Creator to Whom you're connected to others, and refining one's entirety
of being into a harmonious conduit of that good.

I enjoyed RDB's non-answer:
> I'm still not 100% sure I understand what you are getting at, since what
> Hashem wants from people, broadly, is to transform their will to His Will.
> He has many things He wants us to accomplish, and the goal is for us to
> want to accomplish them all.

> If you want something more specific, I would go with Rav Wolbe's concept of
> Sulamos - ladders of growth, and whatever stands at the pinnacle of the
> ladder constitutes what Hashem wants of you.

It is presumptuous to think there is a main theme to begin with --
at least not something someone can some up. RAM voices a similar
objection. Doesn't dissuade me, but I appreciated the invite to rethink
my assumptions.

I think the gemara that introduces the whole notion of 613 mitzvos does
just that -- tries to then sum them up with a Mission Statement for Life.
People find Mission Statements useful, and I think one's avodas H'
suffers if they can't contemplate a mental image of the forest rather
than focusing

RDB, continued:
> The thing is, though, that as you say, there are many valid answers to
> that question. Many different sources have different ladders...

Does each person have many ladders, or each approach given a few
fundamental ladders for different kinds of people? Or both? I
would agree with the ladder.

> And, thus, the GRA there circles back to this: "Nowadays we should not go
> with grand and phenomenal ideas (Gedolos Veniflaos). We must only
> ascertain  that our actions should be unto Hashem, meaning, in accordance
> with His Will... and via fulfillment of those actions themselves, i.e.
> fulfilling Mitzvos Asei and avoiding Lo Saaseis, *they* will make your
> thoughts in consonance (with the truth), for  "Kol Po'al Hashem
> Lema'anehu," meaning, the primary Will of Hashem is the Torah and the
> Mitzvos."

I am not sure he is against Mission Statements, such as the central
themes of his talmid's Nefesh haChaim. He could be arguing that halakhah
comes first, and one's definition of "the forest" must fit that data,
rather than the other way around.

> In other words, in theory, the place to look for the answer to that
> question is *within oneself.* [Which, by the way, is where one needs to
> look to properly understand Aggadeta.]

Well, other than the text you're trying to understand. Aggadita comes
from man's *encounter* with the Torah. Which is the idea I tried to
capture above with the metaphor of different people standing on
different sides -- but of the same mountain.

RMYG:
> I like the Ramchal's formulation (in Mesillas Yesharim 1): "l'kayem
> mitzvos, v'laavod, v'laamod b'nisayon."

I was more enchanted with his exposition in the haqdamah on the
pasuq RAM cited, "ki im
        - leyir'ah es H' E-lokekha
        - lalekhes bekhol derakhah
        - ule'avah Oso
        - velaavod es H"E bekhol levovkha uvkhol nafshekha
        - lishmor es mitzvos H' ve'es chukosav..."

Al ta'am vareiach...

RnTK: 
> Ta'amu ure'u ki tov Hashem

To tease out more detail... How does that get reflected in a Mission
Statement, as a vision of the forest comprised of halachic "trees"?




The following is slightly off topic, but I emailed it to someone recently,
wanted to share it, and it relates to what I said earlier about Mussar's
explicit pursuit sheleimus and its similarity (in some forms of Mussar)
to TiDE's puruit of ennoblement.

In the 1990s (including the period in which AishDas was founded),
I identified more with RSRH's derekh. It is quite likely that if Dr
Alan Morinis didn't have me repeatedly preparing Mussar material, I
would have ended up back there. Instead, I ended up studying R' Shimon
Shkop's and R' Dovid Lifshitz's (links no.s 127 and 128 in the chain from
rebbe to talmid from MRAH to myself) perspectives, Mussar in general,
and convinced myself -- not just his talmidim. The level of success
AishDas has had with ve'adim shouldn't be underplayed as a factor
either. (My point being to emphasize the non-ideological issues that
end up shaping such fundamental decisions.)

My problem with RSRH's derekh which is what I was following before Mussar
is explified by his dependence on symbology. I can't believe the essential
point of a mitzvah is something you need to be in on the secrets to get
value from. If basar bechalav (eg) is a symbol to teach about separating
animal productivity from human creativity, then how did the vast majority
of Jews gain by avoiding it?

Mussar is only a short stone's throw away, looking at the unconscious
influence of actions rather than the educational-symbolic lessons
imparted. Notice that both TiDE and Slabodka focus on refinement and
ennoblement of man. Mussar makes it about middos and pschospirituality. As
I wrote above, TiDE makes it about human creativity and mastery of his
world -- Yaft E-lokim leYefes, veyishkon be'ohalei Sheim.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When one truly looks at everyone's good side,
mi...@aishdas.org        others come to love him very naturally, and
http://www.aishdas.org   he does not need even a speck of flattery.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Rabbi AY Kook

On 6/07/2012 5:58 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> In some wars. Shemuel I 19:8, "vayeitzei David bayilachem baPelishtim",
> predate his appointment. II 8:1, "vayakh David es Pelishtim". v. 2
> "Vayach es Moav". Etc.. for a number of battles through that pereq.

> "Lo sivneh bayis liShmi, ki damim Rabim shafakhta artzah lefanai"
> -Divrei haYamim I 22:8.

> He went to enough wars to be disqualified from bulding bayis rishon.

1. Maybe he wasn't a talmid chacham then

2. There was a long period when he had no choice but to fight.  Nobody
says a talmid chochom *may* not fight, that he's some sort of sacred
person who must not lift up a weapon, like priests in some religions.
When Asa conscripted talmidei chachamim they fought, but he was punished
for it.


> On Fri, Jul 06, 2012 at 07:30:21AM +0300, Doron Beckerman wrote:
>:>  the Shofetim

>: Who, by and large, were not the greatest Talmidei Chachamim of their times.

> Yiftach bedoro keShmuel bedoro.

How is that relevant?  As the shofet he must be obeyed; how does that
make him a talmid chacham who is exempt from fighting?  On the contrary,
the only reason he was accepted as the shofet was as the price of his
agreeing to fight; if he were then to turn around and say "since I'm
the shofet I must be a talmid chacham so I won't fight" they'd have
made him "ois shoifet" on the spot!

Reminds me of the story I read on Areivim, about the Polish Jew in a
German shul who wore his talles over his head.  The gabbai said to him,
"Reb Yid, I see by the talles over your head that you're a talmid chochom,
so how is it that you don't know that bai unz an am ho'oretz doesn't wear
a talles over his head?"

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

On Fri, Jul 06, 2012 at 09:24:43AM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>> In some wars. Shemuel I 19:8, "vayeitzei David bayilachem baPelishtim",
>> predate his appointment. II 8:1, "vayakh David es Pelishtim". v. 2
>> "Vayach es Moav". Etc.. for a number of battles through that pereq.
>
>> "Lo sivneh bayis liShmi, ki damim Rabim shafakhta artzah lefanai"
>> -Divrei haYamim I 22:8.
>
>> He went to enough wars to be disqualified from bulding bayis rishon.
>
> 1. Maybe he wasn't a talmid chacham then

Even in Shemuel II 8:1, where he was melekh already? He already wrote
numerous kapitelach Tehillim by this point. (LeDavid beshanoso es ta'amo
was written when on the lam from Shaul, no?)

> 2. There was a long period when he had no choice but to fight.  Nobody
> says a talmid chochom *may* not fight...
> When Asa conscripted talmidei chachamim they fought, but he was punished
> for it.

I thought Asa's sin was in focusing on bitul Torah rather than constripting
all segments equally.

>> On Fri, Jul 06, 2012 at 07:30:21AM +0300, Doron Beckerman wrote:
>> :>  the Shofetim
>
>> : Who, by and large, were not the greatest Talmidei Chachamim of their times.
>
>> Yiftach bedoro keShmuel bedoro.
>
> How is that relevant? ...

Because the quote is about the halachic authority of "hashofeit asher
bayamim haheim." See RH 25a-b. Yiftach is being described as his
generation's greatest TC, or at least greatest poseiq (and thus some
sort of TC).

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Like a bird, man can reach undreamed-of
mi...@aishdas.org        heights as long as he works his wings.
http://www.aishdas.org   But if he relaxes them for but one minute,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      he plummets downward.   - Rav Yisrael Salanter


------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 30, Issue 86
**************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."