Volume 30: Number 39
Fri, 11 May 2012
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 11:34:09 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Daas Torah Rerere...redux - Pesachim 112a
On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 07:15:31PM -0400, Samuel Svarc wrote:
:> DT today is not pesaq, it's considered binding advice (more or less, depending
:> advice, but not a notion that this approach or that is actually assur,
:> using the kind of argument one sees in shu"t. Pesaq and mishpat are also
:> two different things.
: The above is your assertion, unsourced I might add, but 'ikar chaser
: min hasefer', you haven't explained how it's different from what
: occurred by Bar Kochba.
It's not an assertion, it's a definition. The concept of "daas Torah"
is defined as turning to rabbanim for advice even when the question is
not halachic, and not even about aggadita (eg weighing two conflicting
Torah values). As R' Bernard Weinberger put it in the 2nd issue of JO
(Oct 1963):
a lot more than Torah weltanschauung or a Torah saturated
perspective. It assumes a special endowment or capacity to penetrate
objective reality, recognize the facts as they 'really' are, and apply
pertinent Halachic principles. It is a form of 'Ruach HaKodesh,' as
it were, which borders if not remotely on the periphery of prophecy.
Another formulation involves noting how Torah study enhances the shape
of all their thoughts.
(BTW, leshitas haRambam, those two possibilities: (1) near ruach haqodesh
and (2) how learning shapes the mind, would be identical. See Moreh 3:17.
But then, today's daas Torah is against all but yechidim learning the
Moreh. <grin>)
If this were not the rererere...redux, I would bother proving that the
concept of DT is of recent vintage. But we've been there, done that. What
I said then, refined and corrected by the discussion, appears here
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2004/11/todays-daas-torah.shtml>.
The idiom "daas Torah" (in this usage) similarly was coined in the 20th
cent. The gemara's usage is a near opposite -- if it's daas Torah, we'll
accept it, but if it's from R' Yehudah's daas (regardless of his great
immersion in Torah) we don't have to. Of course, the "we" are themselves
capable baalei pelugta -- that' why I said only "near opposite".
I therefore used the older term, emunas chakhamim, when discussing our
trust in our chakhamim when the question *is* about the Torah, rather
than about the metzi'us.
As for Bar Kokheva... He violated the issur against building your army on
mechalelei Shabbos befarhesia in his alliance with Tzedqim and Biryonim.
That's din, not strategic advice informed by R' Aqiva's daas Torah.
...
:> And RZS, BM 85a just says that R Zeira was so into acquiring the style
:> of learning in the Y-mi that among the things he fasted for was that he
:> not inherit R' Elazar ben Padas's job and "naflin iluyah milei detzibura".
:> not be responsible for milei detzibura like R' Elazar ben Padas. How does
:> that tell me what it means? Do we know whether REBP did or advised?
: That's all the same in civil administration.
As I later wrote, there is a difference between being the mayor and
being the mayor's DT advisor. R' Aqiva is clearly talking about a city
where the mayor and/or city council are talmidei chakhamim. I pointed to
Rashi because his rationale about not having invested the time to master
milei detzibura would appear to devalue the role of talmidei chakhaim as
advisors. That DT doesn't compensate for having a feel for the metzi'us.
...
: > I do not agree. He could make such a pesaq, using sources prohibiting
: > walking in areas where one is likely to stumble on causes of hirhurim. Or
: > if he were a Sanhedrin, he could make a taqanah. He could follow R'
: > Gershom and put all internet viewers into cheirem.
: So the ban on learning Kabbalah until the above criteria are met is what?
Somewhere in between. An aggadic statement; Torah based, but not an actual
issur. Unless we both hold like the mishnah Ein Doreshin (not too clear
from the gemara) lehalakhah, and they were using that or something of
the like to pasqen that all of Qabbalah qualifies.
:> But you're blurring the line between iqar hadin and qadeish es atzmekha
:> bemah shemutar lakh. Halakhah is made with legal arguments, citing shas
:> and priori posqim, not with polemics from the podium.
: Astonished at this conjecture...
As per the top, it's not a conjecture, it's the scope I brought to the
conversation when I chose to speak about daas Torah.
If you think the mayor TC pasqens that it's okay to start an expensive
street replacement project rather than engage in repairs based on his
opinion of conflicting projections of future tax revenues...
That's the DT case. To pasqen, one is deciding milei degirsa, after
experts clarified the milei detzibura (or whatever the domain of the
particular pesaq is).
:-)BBii!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 34th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 4 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Yesod sheb'Hod: How does submission result in
Fax: (270) 514-1507 and maintain a stable relationship?
Go to top.
Message: 2
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 11:41:35 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Daas Torah Rerere...redux - Pesachim 112a
On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 08:36:46AM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
> On 5/10/2012 6:00 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>> If you agree that milei are words and ideas (from /mll/, to speak), as
>> in milei de'alma, or for that matter milei degirsa, then I don't know
>> why you think milei detzibura is hands-on rather than knowing the society.
>> Rashi is comparing what they take the time to learn.
> Because it's talking about governance. Milei d'tzibura obviously means
> public necessities. It doesn't say milei d'alma.
Yes, knowing HOW to govern or WHO he is governing. Rashi uses a pair of
matching clauses -- milei degirsa and milei detzibura. It seems compelling
to me that he is comparing knowledge vs knowledge. Espesially since the
word in repetition ("milei") literally means "words of".
On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 02:07:07AM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
:> Isn't Rashi saying that a TC who spends his time with texts
:> lacks the knowledge of what's going on in the society in
:> question to be a good leader?
: He *might* be saying that.
: I'd prefer to think that he's saying that it's a shanda (a shame,
: a pity) to live in a town where the chachamim get themselves dirty with
: politics. Better to leave that to the askanim, who are in frequent contact
: with the chachamim, and know when to refer something to their attention.
If he meant it descriptively rather than descriptively, would Rashi have
said "sheyihyu tedirin..." or "shetzerikhim lihyos", rather than saying
the problem with their leadership is that they are actually teridim in
milei degirsa rather than milei detzivura?
:-)BBii!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 34th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 4 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Yesod sheb'Hod: How does submission result in
Fax: (270) 514-1507 and maintain a stable relationship?
Go to top.
Message: 3
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 18:10:16 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] water and salt
<< What about water and salt? Where did the Torah permit those to be
consumed? >>
water and salt are brought to the mizbeach and only things permitted to eat
can be brought to the mizbeach.
But I dont understand the question why should the Torah list explicitly
every possible item that can be consumed?
--
Eli Turkel
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20120511/6a4aac06/attachment-0001.htm>
Go to top.
Message: 4
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 17:59:27 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] orchos chaim
from reuven brauner:
I am pleased to inform you of the availablity of my adaptation of *Sefer
Orchos Chayim* of the Rosh on the Internet. It was uploaded last night.
This monograph can be found at:
http://halakhah.com/rst/orchos.pdf
For those of you who are unfamiliar with this very short but extremely
poignant work by one of our most important sages, Rabbeinu Asher, the Rosh,
from the period of the Rishonim, synopsizes all the key Commandments every
Jew should be intimately familiar with and, most importantly, integrate in
his daily life and the fabric of his being. Even more so, the
ideas expressed in this masterful booklet can truly be called the most
fundamental modes of behavior and thought which define the sincere and
committed Orthodox Jew.
--
Eli Turkel
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20120511/0f62f2f7/attachment-0001.htm>
Go to top.
Message: 5
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 18:17:48 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] IDF melting pot
<< On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 10:09:56AM -0400, Samuel Svarc wrote:
: RHS ignored the Israeli reality that not learning in Kollel means joining
: the army. I can't speak for the RY in question, but setting up the
question
: as one of a) learning full time b) being an eved Hashem ignores the
reality
: of IDF, an institution that was setup and is being perpetuated as a
melting
: pot.
The IDF has separate units for much of hesder, charedi nachal and many
other types of special purpose units.
Besides even the melting pot theory means that soldiers should meet other
types of people, has nothing to do with being less religious.
However, as a practical matter I would avoid being the only religious
soldier in a unit. This is one of the advantages of being in hesder that
one is togther with many other religious soldiers.
--
Eli Turkel
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20120511/ee5a03bb/attachment-0001.htm>
Go to top.
Message: 6
From: Samuel Svarc <ssv...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 10:46:40 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Fwd: Rabbi Hershel Schachter - True Freedom
On May 11, 2012 10:19 AM, "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 10:09:56AM -0400, Samuel Svarc wrote:
>: RHS ignored the Israeli reality that not learning in Kollel means joining
>: the army. I can't speak for the RY in question, but setting up the question
>: as one of a) learning full time b) being an eved Hashem ignores the reality
>: of IDF, an institution that was setup and is being perpetuated as a melting
>: pot.
> I don't think you know the reality of the IDF. But much of that reality
> is created by the number of O Jews in the army.
I know what the Zionist founders of the IDF explicitly stated. As well,
what recent commissions found that eliminating the draft and moving to
a professional paid army (like the US) would be more cost effective. The
"social value" is why it's being retained.
Further your assertion that greater numbers of O Jews would make a
difference, is shown to be naive from recent decisions forcing O Jews
to hear live kol isha, when there is absolutely no reason (of any type -
military or otherwise) for it.
> It's also assur to avoid a milkhemes mitzvah. We even pull a chasan or
> kallah from sheva berakhos, and talmidei chakhamim are drafted FIRST. So
> I'm not sure anyone -- including those of us living in chu"l -- really
> have a choice when Israel is under attack, or to be trained to be of
> help when it is.
I'm content to rely on those who vastly overshadow (to a degree that
it is absurd to even mention it) RHS, such as the CI, who had no such
practical concerns.
> I realize you can well disagree, for that matter, R Dovid did. But you
> need to work with RHS's shittos within /his/ assumptions.
No! No! RHS is entitled to his own opinions, and anyone who wants to
take his over, say, the CI, Steipler, etc., enjoy. He is not entitled
to leave out ikar chaser min hasefer when describing the question.
[Moments later, RMSS corrected himself in a second email to the
list. -micha]
Strike " He is not entitled to leave out ikar chaser min hasefer when
describing the question." and replace with "When describing a question
one can't leave out important information. "
RHS is a TC; I won't say what he is entitled to.
KT,
MSS
Go to top.
Message: 7
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 12:07:21 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Fwd: Rabbi Hershel Schachter - True Freedom
On 11/05/2012 10:19 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> It's also assur to avoid a milkhemes mitzvah. [...] talmidei chakhamim
> are drafted FIRST.
Where does it say this?
--
Zev Sero "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
are expanding through human ingenuity."
- Julian Simon
Go to top.
Message: 8
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 12:52:09 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Fwd: Rabbi Hershel Schachter - True Freedom
On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 10:46:40AM -0400, Samuel Svarc wrote:
: On May 11, 2012 10:19 AM, "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
:> On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 10:09:56AM -0400, Samuel Svarc wrote:
:>: RHS ignored the Israeli reality that not learning in Kollel means joining
:>: the army....
...
:> It's also assur to avoid a milkhemes mitzvah....
...
:> I realize you can well disagree, for that matter, R Dovid did. But you
:> need to work with RHS's shittos within /his/ assumptions.
...
: No! No! RHS is entitled to his own opinions, and anyone who wants to
: take his over, say, the CI, Steipler, etc., enjoy....
: When describing a question
: one can't leave out important information.
But my whole objection was that he didn't "ignore the Israeli reality"
when he spoke of leaving kollel. He has a different attitude about the
alternative of joining Tzahal. You misdescribed where he and the gedolim
you follow part ways.
: Further your assertion that greater numbers of O Jews would make a
: difference, is shown to be naive from recent decisions forcing O Jews
: to hear live kol isha, when there is absolutely no reason (of any type -
: military or otherwise) for it.
Actually, those decisions are the product of a desperate old guard who
see the army being taken over by kipot serugot. 80% of Golani's officers
are dati. That scares the old Avodah party / aliyah bet types, and they're
pushing back. Gam zeh yaavor.
On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 12:07:21PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 11/05/2012 10:19 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
>> It's also assur to avoid a milkhemes mitzvah. [...] talmidei chakhamim
>> are drafted FIRST.
>
> Where does it say this?
Well, certainly not Nedarim 32a, where R' Avohu quotes R' Elazar as
saying that galus Mitzrayim was the punishment for Avraham drafting
talmidei chakhaim. And while Gid'on's 300 men were those who wouldn't
kneel even when technically muttar (Shofetim 7:5-6), which makes them
the the holier portion of the candidates, that's still far short of
being talmidei chakhamim.
Although note that the TC must have been among those Hashem tells Gid'on
to choose, not those sent back for kneeling. And the rach leivav who
are sent back in every war includes the avaryanim, leaving the holiest
to fight. And this includes "major aveiros", like talking between putting
on tefilah shel yad and shel rosh.
But it was this din I was exagerating, and I was thinking of the play
in Brisk, performed by Maskilim out to show how absurdly (in their eyes)
this halakhah would play out, and R' Chaim's retort. Here is the version
of the story I found in an issue of the Aram Soba Foundation Newsletter
(parashah sheet) at
<http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/parsha/aram/archives/mikess59.htm>:
Secular Jews in the city of Brisk, in an attempt to make a mockery of
the religious community, staged a play depicting what a religious army
under Torah authority would have looked like. The curtain rose over
a group of soldiers dressed in black as the kohen spoke to the group:
"Whoever has built a new home and did not dedicate it - should return
to his home, lest he die in battle and another dedicate it" A group
of soldiers marched and left their position. The kohen continued,
"Whoever has planted a vineyard and did not perform hilul or who was
betrothed to a woman and did not marry her - should return to his
home" Again, a handful of got up and left. The kohen then proceeded
to announce the final release: "Whoever is afraid and soft of heart -
referring to those afraid on sins which they have committed - should
return to their homes"
Immediately, panic broke out among the soldiers. Who has not committed
one sin or another? Who has never spoken any "lashon hara" or wasted
any time from Torah study? They all picked themselves up and left.
On the stage stood only three people - the kohen, and two elderly
men. The first was the Vilna Gaon, and the second was the author of
"Shaagat Aryeh." They engaged in an involved "halachic" discussion as
to which one of them has the privilege of beginning the battle against
the enemy. The frivolous audience broke out in hysterical laughter.
Understandably, the secularists relished this or any opportunity to
poke fun at the Torah. The religious community, however, turned to
Rabbi Hayim of Brisk to ask for his response.
Reb Hayim answered, "What can I say - they are correct! This is
exactly how it appeared when the Jewish people went out to fight. But
the actors forgot just one thing - those two won the battle!"
:-)BBii!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 34th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 4 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Yesod sheb'Hod: How does submission result in
Fax: (270) 514-1507 and maintain a stable relationship?
Go to top.
Message: 9
From: Lisa Liel <l...@starways.net>
Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 10:58:05 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Daas Torah Rerere...redux - Pesachim 112a
On 5/11/2012 10:41 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 08:36:46AM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
>
>> On 5/10/2012 6:00 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>>
>>> If you agree that milei are words and ideas (from /mll/, to speak), as
>>> in milei de'alma, or for that matter milei degirsa, then I don't know
>>> why you think milei detzibura is hands-on rather than knowing the society.
>>> Rashi is comparing what they take the time to learn.
>>>
>> Because it's talking about governance. Milei d'tzibura obviously means
>> public necessities. It doesn't say milei d'alma.
>>
> Yes, knowing HOW to govern or WHO he is governing. Rashi uses a pair of
> matching clauses -- milei degirsa and milei detzibura. It seems compelling
> to me that he is comparing knowledge vs knowledge. Espesially since the
> word in repetition ("milei") literally means "words of".
>
On the contrary. It means "things of". Or "issues of". Lomdus issues
vs public issues.
Lisa
Go to top.
Message: 10
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 12:24:37 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Daas Torah Rerere...redux - Pesachim 112a
On 11/05/2012 11:34 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> I pointed to
> Rashi because his rationale about not having invested the time to master
> milei detzibura
But that's not what Rashi says. That's what *you* say.
> Rashi uses a pair of matching clauses -- milei degirsa and milei detzibura.
No, he doesn't.
> It seems compelling
> to me that he is comparing knowledge vs knowledge. Espesially since the
> word in repetition ("milei") literally means "words of".
Turn that around. Since he *doesn't* use the language you claim, your
own logic shows that he means the actual work of administration.
--
Zev Sero "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
are expanding through human ingenuity."
- Julian Simon
Go to top.
Message: 11
From: Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer <r...@aishdas.org>
Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 12:25:00 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Fwd: Rabbi Hershel Schachter - True Freedom
The CI was niftar sixty years ago. His perspectives and directives
logically need to be reassessed after so many years have elapsed and
societies and situations have changed so much. The problem is that since
his petirah we have not had manhigim making those reassessments (I leave
the question of "why not?" aside for now). To blindly and completely
apply the policies of the CI today is Rabbinic malpractice.
YGB
On 5/11/2012 10:46 AM, Samuel Svarc wrote:
> I'm content to rely on those who vastly overshadow (to a degree that
> it is absurd to even mention it) RHS, such as the CI, who had no such
> practical concerns.
Go to top.
Message: 12
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 12:16:56 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] water and salt
On 11/05/2012 11:10 AM, Eli Turkel wrote:
> << What about water and salt? Where did the Torah permit those to be consumed? >>
>
> water and salt are brought to the mizbeach and only things permitted to eat can be brought to the mizbeach.
Not true. Chelev and blood are reserved for the mizbeach, and that's
*why* we're not allowed to eat them. Maybe water and salt are too.
> But I dont understand the question why should the Torah list explicitly every possible item that can be consumed?
That is RCM' premise that we're discussing. My example of water and
salt is intended to refute it.
--
Zev Sero "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
are expanding through human ingenuity."
- Julian Simon
Go to top.
Message: 13
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 13:12:32 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Fwd: Rabbi Hershel Schachter - True Freedom
On 11/05/2012 12:52 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> Although note that the TC must have been among those Hashem tells Gid'on
> to choose, not those sent back for kneeling. And the rach leivav who
> are sent back in every war includes the avaryanim, leaving the holiest
> to fight. And this includes "major aveiros", like talking between putting
> on tefilah shel yad and shel rosh.
In both cases, who says TC were in the mix to begin with? What the
army needs is yir'ei shamayim, ehrliche ballebatim. Meanwhile the
full-time TC are back home building up zechuyos for them.
--
Zev Sero "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
are expanding through human ingenuity."
- Julian Simon
Go to top.
Message: 14
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 13:54:57 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Fwd: Rabbi Hershel Schachter - True Freedom
On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 01:12:32PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> In both cases, who says TC were in the mix to begin with? What the
> army needs is yir'ei shamayim, ehrliche ballebatim. Meanwhile the
> full-time TC are back home building up zechuyos for them.
But for a milkhemes mitzvah, no one can stay home -- Misnah Sotah
8:7. "Bameh devarim amurim, bemilchemes reshus. Aval bemilchemes mitzvah,
hekol yotzei." And the gemara (44b) asks how a kalah is expected to serve,
given that women aren't supposed to bear arms.
The mishnah has a machloqes whether this extra bit about even a kallah
is the din by a milkhemes mitzvah or milhemes chovah. This has more to do
with R' Yehudah splitting milkhemes mitzvah into two subtypes. But in any
case, both say that a defensive war qualifies, and the machloqes isn't
necessarily about talmidei chakhamim. And the subject about drafting
or not drafting talmidei chakhamim -- you know, like Rabbi Aqiva --
doesn't even come up in pereq Mashuach Milkhamah in the Bavli at all.
Of those who show up, the righteous ones stay. That's what I exagerated
into a requitement to draft talmidei chakhemim first.
:-)BBii!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 34th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 4 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Yesod sheb'Hod: How does submission result in
Fax: (270) 514-1507 and maintain a stable relationship?
Go to top.
Message: 15
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 14:17:22 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Daas Torah Rerere...redux - Pesachim 112a
On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 10:58:05AM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
>> Yes, knowing HOW to govern or WHO he is governing. Rashi uses a pair of
>> matching clauses -- milei degirsa and milei detzibura. It seems compelling
>> to me that he is comparing knowledge vs knowledge. Espesially since the
>> word in repetition ("milei") literally means "words of".
> On the contrary. It means "things of". Or "issues of". Lomdus issues
> vs public issues.
That could well be the tanslation, but not "on the countrary" -- /mll/
is the shoresh and "words" is the primary meaning from which others
derive. Don't see how that changes the basic meaning of the phrase
or the masqanah. I don't see Rashi as giving an argument specific to
disqualifying a TC as mayor and not devalue his ability to advise a mayor.
On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 12:24:37PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>> Rashi uses a pair of matching clauses -- milei degirsa and milei detzibura.
> No, he doesn't.
>> It seems compelling
>> to me that he is comparing knowledge vs knowledge. Espesially since the
>> word in repetition ("milei") literally means "words of".
> Turn that around. Since he *doesn't* use the language you claim, your
> own logic shows that he means the actual work of administration.
You gave a converse, not a contrapositive, so while you defused my argument,
your counter-argument doesn't work.
But my bad memory aside, Rashi does write (cut-n-pasted from my OP):
Ve'al tadur be'ir...:
Detarud begirseih velo bemilei detzibura.
And I still see a parallel, and milei being thrown in to keep it a
parallel about topics, not activities.
On this topic, see Igeros haQodesh 8:2342 (14-Teves-5714)
<http://www.chabadlibrary.org/books/default.aspx?furl=/admur/ig/8/2342
>
where the LR draws the distinction between Rashi: velo bemilei detzibura,
and Rashbam: velo tatid bemilei detzibura. And says he wishes to be
maqayim perush Rashi and not ch"v peirush Rashbam.
Mah beinaihu?
:-)BBii!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 34th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 4 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Yesod sheb'Hod: How does submission result in
Fax: (270) 514-1507 and maintain a stable relationship?
Go to top.
Message: 16
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 13:57:31 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Fwd: Rabbi Hershel Schachter - True Freedom
On 11/05/2012 1:54 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> But for a milkhemes mitzvah, no one can stay home -- Misnah Sotah
> 8:7. "Bameh devarim amurim, bemilchemes reshus. Aval bemilchemes mitzvah,
> hekol yotzei."
How do you know that includes the full-time TC?
--
Zev Sero "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
are expanding through human ingenuity."
- Julian Simon
Go to top.
Message: 17
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 14:22:29 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Fwd: Rabbi Hershel Schachter - True Freedom
On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 01:57:31PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 11/05/2012 1:54 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>> But for a milkhemes mitzvah, no one can stay home -- Misnah Sotah
>> 8:7. "Bameh devarim amurim, bemilchemes reshus. Aval bemilchemes mitzvah,
>> hekol yotzei."
> How do you know that includes the full-time TC?
Like on the Peng Peng thread... If there is nothing saying otherwise,
why would you invent exclusions. We have nothing saying that "hakol"
dosen't literally mean "hakol".
:-)BBii!
-Micha
------------------------------
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
End of Avodah Digest, Vol 30, Issue 39
**************************************
Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
avodah@lists.aishdas.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org
You can reach the person managing the list at
avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."