Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 38

Fri, 11 May 2012

• 1. Re: Daas Torah Rerere...redux - Pesachim 112a (Samuel Svarc)
• 2. Re: Daas Torah Rerere...redux - Pesachim 112a (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: forcing a GET (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 4. Re: Daas Torah Rerere...redux - Pesachim 112a (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 5. Re: forcing a GET (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: forcing a GET (Daniel Eidensohn)
• 7. Re: forcing a GET (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Daas Torah Rerere...redux - Pesachim 112a (Lisa Liel)
• 9. Re: Fwd: Rabbi Hershel Schachter - True Freedom (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Fwd: Rabbi Hershel Schachter - True Freedom (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Fwd: Rabbi Hershel Schachter - True Freedom (Samuel Svarc)
• 12. "Dor shel shmad" (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: Any opinions on the kashrus of Peng Peng? (Lisa Liel)

On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 7:00 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 06:29:17PM -0400, Samuel Svarc wrote:
> :> Yeah, when they pasqen. Not daas Torah. BK violated halakhah, not just
> :> advice.
> :
> : And Daas Torah today is not a psak? Do you think they dragged Bar
> : Kochva into a BD and there was mishpat? ...
>
> DT today is not pesaq, it's considered binding advice (more or less, depending
> advice, but not a notion that this approach or that is actually assur,
> using the kind of argument one sees in shu"t. Pesaq and mishpat are also
> two different things.

The above is your assertion, unsourced I might add, but 'ikar chaser
min hasefer', you haven't explained how it's different from what
occurred by Bar Kochba.

> ...
> : Detarud begirseih velo bemilei detzibura = He is busy with learning,
> : not with civil administration. Your interpretation should have Rashi
> : using other terms, e.g. ?'bemilei deolam' = worldly matters....
>
> If you agree that milei are words and ideas (from /mll/, to speak), as
> in milei de'alma, or for that matter milei degirsa, then I don't know
> why you think milei detzibura is hands-on rather than knowing the society.
> Rashi is comparing what they take the time to learn.
>
> I am saying that "milei de-" refers to knowledge. Being responsible for
> them would mean something about words or speach, and thus advisory, not
> implementation. A rosh ha'ir manages, not does.

Agreed to the gist, that bemilei detzibura = civil *administration*
not civil works (management not manual labor).

> The question is whether Rashi's version of R' Aqiva's words about the
> mayor or town council would include being the man behind the mayor.

Well, you know what RZS, RLL, and myself hold about your original conjecture.

> And RZS, BM 85a just says that R Zeira was so into acquiring the style
> of learning in the Y-mi that among the things he fasted for was that he
> not inherit R' Elazar ben Padas's job and "naflin iluyah milei detzibura".
> not be responsible for milei detzibura like R' Elazar ben Padas. How does
> that tell me what it means? Do we know whether REBP did or advised?

That's all the same in civil administration.

> The only job I know of him having was that of R' Assi's amora.
>
> ...
> : E.g. A city's TC will pasken that usage of the Internet by anyone
> : under 40 who hasn't finished one round of Shas and Poskim is
> : prohibited (yes, the usage of the ban on Kaballah is intentional).
>
> : This is a clear psak...
>
> I do not agree. He could make such a pesaq, using sources prohibiting
> walking in areas where one is likely to stumble on causes of hirhurim. Or
> if he were a Sanhedrin, he could make a taqanah. He could follow R'
> Gershom and put all internet viewers into cheirem.

So the ban on learning Kabbalah until the above criteria are met is what?

> But you're blurring the line between iqar hadin and qadeish es atzmekha
> bemah shemutar lakh. Halakhah is made with legal arguments, citing shas
> and priori posqim, not with polemics from the podium.

Astonished at this conjecture. In my hypothetical scenario the TC
(plural I might add) of the city issued a psak to that effect, with
sources from Shas , SA and poskim. That you are unaware of these
sources just implies that you are not as learned as these
(hypothetical) TC, not that these (hypothetical) TC issued polemics
from a podium.

However debating a tangential scenario given as an example is
pointless, as you can agree that there are possible psakim that will
affect our city's administration, no?

Off to deal with a client's computer,
MSS

On 10/05/2012 7:00 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> If you agree that milei are words and ideas (from/mll/, to speak), as
> in milei de'alma, or for that matter milei degirsa,

Jastrow says that "mila", like the Hebrew "davar", can mean "thing,
object, affair, subject, &c."

"Milei de'alma" means "secular, trivial affairs", not "words".

> I am saying that "milei de-" refers to knowledge.

No, it does not.  All over Shas one finds it referring to "things".

http://www.tyndalearchive.com/TABS/Jastrow/ppages/JastrowP198975.gif

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

R' Zev Sero wrote:
> So now you're saying every man who goes to a rabbanut BD is
> afraid of *false* imprisonment, and *this* fear should be
> equivalent to being treated with harchokos of RT?!

Where does the "every" come from? No one claimed that *every* man who goes
to a Beis Din is afraid of false imprisonment. For the purposes of this
discussion, what we need to clarify is whether such people are a mi'ut
hamatzuy, or whether they are a negligible minority.

If a sufficiently significant number of men are indeed afraid of false
imprisonment, then any get given by such men would be problematic, on
account of being possibly forced, no?

(DISCLAIMER: I am *NOT* going to get involved with any discussions about
how many men have this fear, or whether that number is significant, or
whether such fears are justified. The ONLY point I'm suggesting is that IF
enough men do feel that way, then I don't understand the objections to
RMB's position.)

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4fac6b86df12f108257ast01vuc

R' Micha Berger asked:

> Isn't Rashi saying that a TC who spends his time with texts
> lacks the knowledge of what's going on in the society in
> question to be a good leader?

He *might* be saying that.

I'd prefer to think that he's saying that it's a shanda (a shame, a pity)
to live in a town where the chachamim get themselves dirty with politics.
Better to leave that to the askanim, who are in frequent contact with the
chachamim, and know when to refer something to their attention.

I *do* understand that it is okay (recommended, even) for the chachamim to
have regular jobs, and not just collect a kollel check. But there are other
jobs more suited to them.

Let's also remember that R' Akiva told these things specifically to his
son. As far as I know, they are not normative halacha, nor did R' Akiva try
to make them normative. Perhaps by quoting him, the Gemara itself is trying
to make it normative, but who knows? Perhaps the average person SHOULD live
in a city whose leaders are chachamim?

From R' Samuel Svarc:

> Does this then follow to your assertion that TC lack the
> inherent knowledge about the world's realities, or is RZS
> correct that it means the day to day affairs need to be taken
> care of by baalie baatim while the decisions can (and I add,
> should be) made by TC? I tender from "Ten li Yavne v'Chachamiehu"
> your assertion is refuted, and we see plainly that the TC (and
> only the TC) had the insight to realize the true realities and
> the wisdom to actually implement it.

I think you might be conflating two different issues, namely the day-to-day affairs and the Big Questions.

Indeed, when Rav Yochanan asked, "Ten li Yavne v'Chachamiehu", it was a
critical point in our history, and a lesser person probably would not have
had the foresight to choose those priorities. But that does not mean that
Rav Yochanan was running the day-to-day affairs. If he was, then please
correct me. But in general, it is sufficient that the chachamim be
available to get involved with politics only when necessary.

Ben Gurion went to the Chazon Ish. And this happened even though the Chazon
Ish did not go into politics. Imagine if someone had suggested that the
Chazon Ish should go into politics, because (to paraphrase RSS) the Chazon
Ish (and only the Chazon Ish) would have the insight to realize the true
realities and the wisdom to actually implement it. Would we have been
better off? I think not.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Mom Age 57-Face Looks 26
Mom, age 57-discovered a "weird" $5 trick to erase wrinkles from home.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4fac74afa9ac810878afst05vuc

On 10/05/2012 9:28 PM, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
> (DISCLAIMER: I am*NOT*  going to get involved with any discussions
> about how many men have this fear, or whether that number is significant,
> or whether such fears are justified. The ONLY point I'm suggesting is
> that IF enough men do feel that way, then I don't understand the
> objections to RMB's position.)

My objection, at least, is that if that were indeed the case, then ein
hochi nami the gittin would not be solid, and the Rabbanut would have to
work out how it can allay such fears.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

Is your response indicative that you agree with Rabbi Bechhofer that the 
problem of get me'usa is only a problem for beis din if it applies more 
pressure than prescribed by halacha? But that if an individual (or 
mother-in-law) took the initiative and threatened the husband's life or 
property in a case of ma'us alei there is no problem with the resulting 
get?
> On 10/05/2012 6:15 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>> On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 04:04:00PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>>> So now you're saying every man who goes to a rabbanut BD is afraid of
>>> *false* imprisonment, and *this* fear should be equivalent to being
>>> treated with harchokos of RT?!
>>
>> Yes, that was my ad absurdum case, showing why R' Dovid Eidensohn's
>> demand of absolutely no coersion neither by court nor by anyone else 
>> can't
>> possibly be halakhah. It doesn't make sense. I raised it in the same 
>> post
>> as Batmelech's example of the pushy mother-in-law, another ad absurdum.
>

On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 06:28:46PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> If people are really worried about being *falsely* imprisoned by a BD
> if they don't cooperate, then I would say ein hochi nami, all gittin
> issued by that BD are invalid, and the dayonim should resign in disgrace.
> I don't believe that's the case in EY.

There's worried and there's worried.

I'll try to summarize my position, which is mostly what I wrote when I
summarized the SA and Rama in EhE 154:21.

Both the SA and the Rama hold that me'iqar hadin we could use kefiyah.
However, both also say we ought (with 2 different kinds of ought) to
avoid the machloqes and don't rely on the Rambam. What that means is
that bedi'eved, kefiyah does not invalidate the gett.

What we ought to be doing lechat-khilah is relying on harchaqos RT. The
Rama gives a very broad definition of such harchaqos: anything short of
nidui.

This is what I see in the majority of shu"t since, as well as what I
heard from dayanim in the field, one here in NJ, one in EY.

Thus, the kinds of things R Dovid E is saying invalidates gittin fit
within the Rama's definition. Leshitaso, ein ladavar sof, and any tiny
fear that things might go wrong and land him in jail would invalidate
a gett. Or the mother-in-law who drives him crazy about it.

I also believe that someone who gave a divorce, regardless of who filed
for it, would actually be in a situation where the Rambam allows kefiyah.
Even if she filed for divorce as a ma'us alai, and she is a moredes,
he signed a paper saying there will be no onah.

Ad kan the summary.

AFAIK, the group in question (ORA) does wait for BD to invoke harachaqas
RT, although they have been accused otherwise. But regardless of the
metzi'us -- since this is Avodah, neither Areivim's discussion of what's
going on nor a forum where we can decide halakhah lemaaseh anyway --
speaking of any hypothetical group that were to do so...

Second, we have yet to discuss what the actions of interested third
parties do to the validity of a gett. (This has been RYGB's favorite
point of contention.) Why would a bunch of people organizing a
gett-refuser-harassment-society differ from a mother-in-law on a campaign?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 34th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        4 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Hod: How does submission result in
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  and maintain a stable relationship?

On 5/10/2012 6:00 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> If you agree that milei are words and ideas (from /mll/, to speak), as
> in milei de'alma, or for that matter milei degirsa, then I don't know
> why you think milei detzibura is hands-on rather than knowing the society.
> Rashi is comparing what they take the time to learn.
>    
Because it's talking about governance.  Milei d'tzibura obviously means 
public necessities.  It doesn't say milei d'alma.

Lisa

On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 10:09:56AM -0400, Samuel Svarc wrote:
: RHS ignored the Israeli reality that not learning in Kollel means joining
: the army. I can't speak for the RY in question, but setting up the question
: as one of a) learning full time b) being an eved Hashem ignores the reality
: of IDF, an institution that was setup and is being perpetuated as a melting
: pot.

I don't think you know the reality of the IDF. But much of that reality
is created by the number of O Jews in the army.

It's also assur to avoid a milkhemes mitzvah. We even pull a chasan or
kallah from sheva berakhos, and talmidei chakhamim are drafted FIRST. So
I'm not sure anyone -- including those of us living in chu"l -- really
have a choice when Israel is under attack, or to be trained to be of
help when it is.

I realize you can well disagree, for that matter, R Dovid did. But you
need to work with RHS's shittos within /his/ assumptions.

: Sent from my mobile phone
: On Apr 11, 2012 6:43 PM, "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
: 
: > ----- Forwarded message from TorahWeb <torah...@torahweb.org> -----
: > Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 15:21:00 -- 0400
: > From: TorahWeb <torah...@torahweb.org>
: > Subject: Rabbi Hershel Schachter -- True Freedom
: > To: weekl...@torahweb2.org
: >
: > Permanent Link <http://www.torahweb.org/torah/2012/moadim/rsch/pesach.html
: > >
: >
: > During intersession I participated in a special tour of Eretz Yisroel
: > together with a group of Yeshiva students. The purpose of the tour was
: > to study various aspects of Israeli society. Among many other places,
: > we visited a "charedi" yeshiva high school in Haifa. The rosh yeshiva
: > spoke with us and said, amongst other things, that if ninety percent of
: > his graduates do not end up learning long-term in a kollel, he considers
: > himself a failure. We were all stunned!
: >
: > Certainly learning Torah is most important! Every morning right after
: > reciting birchos haTorah we all recite the passage from the Talmud stating
: > that "Talmud Torah keneged kulam". But still, can it be that anyone who
: > does not go into full-time learning is wasting his life? Hakadosh Baruch
: > Hu calls upon all people to be His slaves. The message Moshe Rabbeinu was
: > to deliver to Pharoh was, "shalach ami veya'avduin -- let My people go and
: > have them become My slaves." Until Pesach evening, the Jews were slaves
: > to Pharoh and then, when he freed them, they became slaves to Hashem.
: >
: > The Jews in every generation were always at the forefront of fighting
: > for freedom. Our tradition teaches, however, that true freedom does not
: > mean that one is free to do whatever he pleases. Only one who is a slave
: > to Hashem and follows the Torah is considered truly free. In Hallel
: > we recite, "ani avdecha ben amosecha pitachto l'moseirai", i.e. that
: > only by becoming a complete slave to Hakadosh Baruch Hu do we feel that
: > "our shackles have been broken" and that we have become freed!
: >
: > Moshe Rabbeinu was described by the Torah as "eved Hashem -- a slave of
: > Hashem." The Radak explains the use of this expression to describe Moshe
: > based on the Talmudic principle, "kol mah shekana eved kana rabbo --
: > everything a slave acquires is automatically transferred to his master."
: > Just as all that a slave does belongs to his master, so too everything
: > Moshe Rabbeinu did, all day long, was in the service of his Master,
: > Hashem. Similarly, when commenting on the passuk, "va'yered Moshe min
: > ha'har el ha'am" (Shemos 19:14), Chazal highlight the fact that even
: > though Moshe was returning from being on Har Sinai for forty days,
: > he did nothing for his own purposes when he came down, rather he went
: > straight back to serving Hashem's people.
: >
: > The Torah calls upon all of us to serve as avadim to Hashem, "ki Li
: > Bnai Yisroel avadim" (Vayikra 26:55). The Rambam (Hilchos De'os 3:2-3),
: > citing the passuk (Mishlei 3:6), "bechol derachecha do'eihu" writes
: > that all of our daily activities -- getting dressed, eating, working,
: > spending time with our spouses and our children, sleeping, etc. -- should
: > be done lesheim Shomayim. The Rambam goes on to say that one who follows
: > this path is in constant service of Hashem! The Torah dictates not only
: > how we must deal in business but even how we should put on our shoes and
: > tie them, how we should shower, and how we should go to sleep at night. A
: > Jew can not divide his activities between the holy and the secular. All
: > day long we are avdei Hashem, and "kol mah shekana eved kana rabbo". All
: > of our activities are expected to be done in the service of our Master.
: >
: > Our love for Hashem is expected to be all encompassing. We are called
: > upon to love him "with all of our hearts." Our love for our spouses and
: > family members is expected to be part of our love for Hashem. He wants
: > us to raise families.
: >
: > After receiving semicha from Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky at Torah V'Da'as,
: > many of the students would go into secular fields. Rav Kaminetsky would
: > not rebuke them for the decision not to enter into the rabbinate or
: > chinuch. He would simply tell them that whatever they choose to do for
: > a living they must do honestly, and they must always act and deal with
: > others in a proper fashion to make a Kiddush Hashem.
: >
: > The Torah tells us (Breshis 5:22) that Chanoch was a holy tzaddik who
: > "walked with Hashem". According to the Zohar, Chanoch was an honest
: > and hard-working shoemaker who did all of his work lesheim Shomayim.
: > Chanoch's life was one of great success; he acted as an eved to Hashem
: > by dedicating all of his daily activities to His service.
: >
: > Copyright ? 2012 by The TorahWeb Foundation. All rights reserved.
: > _______________________________________________
: > Avodah mailing list
: > Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
: > http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
: >

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 34th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        4 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Hod: How does submission result in
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  and maintain a stable relationship?

On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 10:09:56AM -0400, Samuel Svarc wrote:
: RHS ignored the Israeli reality that not learning in Kollel means joining
: the army. I can't speak for the RY in question, but setting up the question
: as one of a) learning full time b) being an eved Hashem ignores the reality
: of IDF, an institution that was setup and is being perpetuated as a melting
: pot.

I don't think you know the reality of the IDF. But much of that reality
is created by the number of O Jews in the army.

It's also assur to avoid a milkhemes mitzvah. We even pull a chasan or
kallah from sheva berakhos, and talmidei chakhamim are drafted FIRST. So
I'm not sure anyone -- including those of us living in chu"l -- really
have a choice when Israel is under attack, or to be trained to be of
help when it is.

I realize you can well disagree, for that matter, R Dovid did. But you
need to work with RHS's shittos within /his/ assumptions.

: Sent from my mobile phone
: On Apr 11, 2012 6:43 PM, "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
: 
: > ----- Forwarded message from TorahWeb <torah...@torahweb.org> -----
: > Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 15:21:00 -- 0400
: > From: TorahWeb <torah...@torahweb.org>
: > Subject: Rabbi Hershel Schachter -- True Freedom
: > To: weekl...@torahweb2.org
: >
: > Permanent Link <http://www.torahweb.org/torah/2012/moadim/rsch/pesach.html
: > >
: >
: > During intersession I participated in a special tour of Eretz Yisroel
: > together with a group of Yeshiva students. The purpose of the tour was
: > to study various aspects of Israeli society. Among many other places,
: > we visited a "charedi" yeshiva high school in Haifa. The rosh yeshiva
: > spoke with us and said, amongst other things, that if ninety percent of
: > his graduates do not end up learning long-term in a kollel, he considers
: > himself a failure. We were all stunned!
: >
: > Certainly learning Torah is most important! Every morning right after
: > reciting birchos haTorah we all recite the passage from the Talmud stating
: > that "Talmud Torah keneged kulam". But still, can it be that anyone who
: > does not go into full-time learning is wasting his life? Hakadosh Baruch
: > Hu calls upon all people to be His slaves. The message Moshe Rabbeinu was
: > to deliver to Pharoh was, "shalach ami veya'avduin -- let My people go and
: > have them become My slaves." Until Pesach evening, the Jews were slaves
: > to Pharoh and then, when he freed them, they became slaves to Hashem.
: >
: > The Jews in every generation were always at the forefront of fighting
: > for freedom. Our tradition teaches, however, that true freedom does not
: > mean that one is free to do whatever he pleases. Only one who is a slave
: > to Hashem and follows the Torah is considered truly free. In Hallel
: > we recite, "ani avdecha ben amosecha pitachto l'moseirai", i.e. that
: > only by becoming a complete slave to Hakadosh Baruch Hu do we feel that
: > "our shackles have been broken" and that we have become freed!
: >
: > Moshe Rabbeinu was described by the Torah as "eved Hashem -- a slave of
: > Hashem." The Radak explains the use of this expression to describe Moshe
: > based on the Talmudic principle, "kol mah shekana eved kana rabbo --
: > everything a slave acquires is automatically transferred to his master."
: > Just as all that a slave does belongs to his master, so too everything
: > Moshe Rabbeinu did, all day long, was in the service of his Master,
: > Hashem. Similarly, when commenting on the passuk, "va'yered Moshe min
: > ha'har el ha'am" (Shemos 19:14), Chazal highlight the fact that even
: > though Moshe was returning from being on Har Sinai for forty days,
: > he did nothing for his own purposes when he came down, rather he went
: > straight back to serving Hashem's people.
: >
: > The Torah calls upon all of us to serve as avadim to Hashem, "ki Li
: > Bnai Yisroel avadim" (Vayikra 26:55). The Rambam (Hilchos De'os 3:2-3),
: > citing the passuk (Mishlei 3:6), "bechol derachecha do'eihu" writes
: > that all of our daily activities -- getting dressed, eating, working,
: > spending time with our spouses and our children, sleeping, etc. -- should
: > be done lesheim Shomayim. The Rambam goes on to say that one who follows
: > this path is in constant service of Hashem! The Torah dictates not only
: > how we must deal in business but even how we should put on our shoes and
: > tie them, how we should shower, and how we should go to sleep at night. A
: > Jew can not divide his activities between the holy and the secular. All
: > day long we are avdei Hashem, and "kol mah shekana eved kana rabbo". All
: > of our activities are expected to be done in the service of our Master.
: >
: > Our love for Hashem is expected to be all encompassing. We are called
: > upon to love him "with all of our hearts." Our love for our spouses and
: > family members is expected to be part of our love for Hashem. He wants
: > us to raise families.
: >
: > After receiving semicha from Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky at Torah V'Da'as,
: > many of the students would go into secular fields. Rav Kaminetsky would
: > not rebuke them for the decision not to enter into the rabbinate or
: > chinuch. He would simply tell them that whatever they choose to do for
: > a living they must do honestly, and they must always act and deal with
: > others in a proper fashion to make a Kiddush Hashem.
: >
: > The Torah tells us (Breshis 5:22) that Chanoch was a holy tzaddik who
: > "walked with Hashem". According to the Zohar, Chanoch was an honest
: > and hard-working shoemaker who did all of his work lesheim Shomayim.
: > Chanoch's life was one of great success; he acted as an eved to Hashem
: > by dedicating all of his daily activities to His service.
: >
: > Copyright ? 2012 by The TorahWeb Foundation. All rights reserved.
: > _______________________________________________
: > Avodah mailing list
: > Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
: > http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
: >

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 34th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        4 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Hod: How does submission result in
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  and maintain a stable relationship?

RHS ignored the Israeli reality that not learning in Kollel means joining
the army. I can't speak for the RY in question, but setting up the question
as one of a) learning full time b) being an eved Hashem ignores the reality
of IDF, an institution that was setup and is being perpetuated as a melting
pot.

KT,
MSS

Sent from my mobile phone
On Apr 11, 2012 6:43 PM, "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> ----- Forwarded message from TorahWeb <torah...@torahweb.org> -----
> Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 15:21:00 -- 0400
> From: TorahWeb <torah...@torahweb.org>
> Subject: Rabbi Hershel Schachter -- True Freedom
> To: weekl...@torahweb2.org
>
> Permanent Link <http://www.torahweb.org/torah/2012/moadim/rsch/pesach.html
> >
>
> During intersession I participated in a special tour of Eretz Yisroel
> together with a group of Yeshiva students. The purpose of the tour was
> to study various aspects of Israeli society. Among many other places,
> we visited a "charedi" yeshiva high school in Haifa. The rosh yeshiva
> spoke with us and said, amongst other things, that if ninety percent of
> his graduates do not end up learning long-term in a kollel, he considers
> himself a failure. We were all stunned!
>
> Certainly learning Torah is most important! Every morning right after
> reciting birchos haTorah we all recite the passage from the Talmud stating
> that "Talmud Torah keneged kulam". But still, can it be that anyone who
> does not go into full-time learning is wasting his life? Hakadosh Baruch
> Hu calls upon all people to be His slaves. The message Moshe Rabbeinu was
> to deliver to Pharoh was, "shalach ami veya'avduin -- let My people go and
> have them become My slaves." Until Pesach evening, the Jews were slaves
> to Pharoh and then, when he freed them, they became slaves to Hashem.
>
> The Jews in every generation were always at the forefront of fighting
> for freedom. Our tradition teaches, however, that true freedom does not
> mean that one is free to do whatever he pleases. Only one who is a slave
> to Hashem and follows the Torah is considered truly free. In Hallel
> we recite, "ani avdecha ben amosecha pitachto l'moseirai", i.e. that
> only by becoming a complete slave to Hakadosh Baruch Hu do we feel that
> "our shackles have been broken" and that we have become freed!
>
> Moshe Rabbeinu was described by the Torah as "eved Hashem -- a slave of
> Hashem." The Radak explains the use of this expression to describe Moshe
> based on the Talmudic principle, "kol mah shekana eved kana rabbo --
> everything a slave acquires is automatically transferred to his master."
> Just as all that a slave does belongs to his master, so too everything
> Moshe Rabbeinu did, all day long, was in the service of his Master,
> Hashem. Similarly, when commenting on the passuk, "va'yered Moshe min
> ha'har el ha'am" (Shemos 19:14), Chazal highlight the fact that even
> though Moshe was returning from being on Har Sinai for forty days,
> he did nothing for his own purposes when he came down, rather he went
> straight back to serving Hashem's people.
>
> The Torah calls upon all of us to serve as avadim to Hashem, "ki Li
> Bnai Yisroel avadim" (Vayikra 26:55). The Rambam (Hilchos De'os 3:2-3),
> citing the passuk (Mishlei 3:6), "bechol derachecha do'eihu" writes
> that all of our daily activities -- getting dressed, eating, working,
> spending time with our spouses and our children, sleeping, etc. -- should
> be done lesheim Shomayim. The Rambam goes on to say that one who follows
> this path is in constant service of Hashem! The Torah dictates not only
> how we must deal in business but even how we should put on our shoes and
> tie them, how we should shower, and how we should go to sleep at night. A
> Jew can not divide his activities between the holy and the secular. All
> day long we are avdei Hashem, and "kol mah shekana eved kana rabbo". All
> of our activities are expected to be done in the service of our Master.
>
> Our love for Hashem is expected to be all encompassing. We are called
> upon to love him "with all of our hearts." Our love for our spouses and
> family members is expected to be part of our love for Hashem. He wants
> us to raise families.
>
> After receiving semicha from Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky at Torah V'Da'as,
> many of the students would go into secular fields. Rav Kaminetsky would
> not rebuke them for the decision not to enter into the rabbinate or
> chinuch. He would simply tell them that whatever they choose to do for
> a living they must do honestly, and they must always act and deal with
> others in a proper fashion to make a Kiddush Hashem.
>
> The Torah tells us (Breshis 5:22) that Chanoch was a holy tzaddik who
> "walked with Hashem". According to the Zohar, Chanoch was an honest
> and hard-working shoemaker who did all of his work lesheim Shomayim.
> Chanoch's life was one of great success; he acted as an eved to Hashem
> by dedicating all of his daily activities to His service.
>
> Copyright ? 2012 by The TorahWeb Foundation. All rights reserved.
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http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10150827936532615&;id=61966557614

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

On 5/10/2012 4:14 PM, hankman wrote:
> Let me clarify or sum up my position (until proven wrong Smile  Things 
> are asur until permitted. At the time of maase bereishis as we see 
> from the ?pshetel from the Sifsei Chachomim I poster previously, the 
> default is that things were asur if not specifically permitted. 
> Certainly this is only wrt to achila and hana?a or every movement 
> (lifting your hand etc) or any other mundane thing would need a heter. 
> This seems to come from the musag that the world is not yours and you 
> need reshus to be nenhneh from it ? perhaps in the same vein, the 
> rationale for asur lihanos min ha?olam bli bracho. Then HKB?H 
> explicitly permitted ONLY vegetation for achila to man and although in 
> Ber. 1:28 Adam is given memshala over the creatures of the world he is 
> still not permitted to eat them as the Or Chachayim points out, but 
> perhaps this was matir the other hano?os from the animals such as use 
> of their fur etc. which otherwise would have remained asur to Adam. 
> Then the Mabul and Noach is permitted to eat all. Then we arrive at 
> matan Torah where the norm is now all is permitted to be eaten (except 
> perhaps as I tried to opine in an earlier post) those things that were 
> not yet in existence and therefore still operating under the original 
> assumption of asur until permitted. I think this is a fair mehalach 
> even if perhaps you can poke some holes here and there that I might 
> try to fix with a bandaid.

I disagree.  Ha-motzi me-chaveiro, alav ha-raaya.  If you're going to 
declare that people (even people at the time of maaseh bereishit) didn't 
have the right to eat without being granted the right explicitly, you 
have to prove it.  Not just assert it and wait for others to disprove 
your assertion.

Hashem says "pru urvu."  Does that mean that procreation was forbidden 
until He said that?  And what's your distinction between eating and 
lifting your hand?  Both are natural to the form and character that 
Hashem gave us.  Hashem owns everything, including us, so when I lift my 
hand, am I not using something of His?  Should I not have to get 
permission?  That's the implication of what you're saying, and I don't 
see any justification for it.

Lisa
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