Volume 30: Number 9
Sun, 01 Apr 2012
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Meir Rabi <meir...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 15:25:12 +1000
Subject: [Avodah] ShaArei Teshuva OCh 460, Matza Meal Not Become
In the middle of a fairly long piece, the ShTeshuva says the following:
o Even if some flour did remain unmixed and is found in the Matza, this
does not pose a problem if the Matza is finely crushed.
- When the flour remains in one blob then it can become Chamets if it
becomes wet
- However when the flour is dispersed in tiny particles throughout the
finely crushed Matza this cannot become Chamets
Can someone please help explain this
[Email #2 -micha]
n the ShTeshuva 460, he says the following: His comments are preceded by
the ellipses (hope that appears in the final presentation) and also with
[ShT]
- The Chumra of Sheruya (GeBrokts) started when Matza was still
being made very thick.
o [ShT] They were less than a Tefach but still quite thick
o [ShT] These Matzos were grated on a "Rib Ayzen"
I think this means they were not crushed with a mortar and pestle, which he
describes later. The reason for this is that the Matza was soft and could
not be crushed; it was grated, like cheese.
o [ShT] Besides, the Matzos were commonly left idle whilst waiting to go
into the oven
o [ShT] These concerns prompted Gd fearing Jews to avoid foods made with
grated Matza
I don't understand, this is a problem with the Matza itself, not just the
grated Matza.
This too supports the understanding that they baked and ate one type of
Matza (that had no such problems) and baked a different Matza for making
Matza meal. Perhaps they wanted it to be whiter without so many brown baked
spots on it.
o [ShT] However, these days we are more vigilant and Matza is made as
Rekikin [less than 12mm as per the Beis Hillel quoted in BaEr Heitev 460:8]
o [ShT] The flour is made by first drying out the Matza in the oven and
then grinding or pounding it. This solves ALL problems
He no longer speaks of grating the Matza but of grinding it.
Furthermore he makes a critically important comment -- the FLOUR is made
from Matza that is dry -- was not ALL the Matza made with this stringency?
It seems not; Matza for eating was made soft and there was no concern that
it may be not thoroughly baked and possibly Chamets.
But Matza for meal was processed differently and THIS Matza was suspect. It
is this difference that warrants his attention, and his conclusion NOW that
the Matza for meal is produced from dry Matza, there is no problem at all
Meir G. Rabi
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Message: 2
From: Moshe Shulman <mshul...@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2012 08:56:32 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Leading Charedi Posek Says metzitza' Should Not
At 08:37 AM 4/1/2012, you wrote:
>From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
>To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
>On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 04:28:26PM -0400, hankman wrote:
>The question is whether halakhah makes this chiluq.
>I argued that one in hundreds of thousands is milsa delo shekhachah, and
>thus ignorable. See Arukh haShulchan OC 544:5. I don't see anyone being
>choleiq between being the sibah or not being mosir hamoneia. I think
>that is why the debate isn't over the piquach nefesh side of things,
>but whether the chiyuv of beris milah means that metzitzah bepeh is
>a chiyuv.
I was talking with a Gadol (not sure he would like his name mentioned
on the Internet which is forbidden) last week and this was his point.
There are hundreds of brisen each week, and we only hear of a problem
very rarely. Even in those cases there is a question of whether the
bris metzitzah was the cause. Those who require it are not going to
stop because of views stated by those who don't require it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moshe Shulman outre...@judaismsanswer.com 718-436-7705
Judaism's Answer: http://www.judaismsanswer.com/
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Message: 3
From: Moshe Shulman <mshul...@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2012 09:03:57 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] hilchot pesach
At 08:37 AM 4/1/2012, you wrote:
>From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
>On 31/03/2012 3:49 PM, Eli Turkel wrote:
> > I recently went to a shiur of R. Avraham Yosef on Pesach. Some of
> his points were
> > Theoretically it also applies to real chametz
>Huh?! How could one cook chametz on Pesach? How could one even have it
>in the kitchen and handle it, even if it belongs to the goy? If nothing
>else, what about the risk that one will absentmindedly eat some? I don't
>understand this at all.
I am with you on this one. Chamitz is issur b'mashihu and if made on
pesach is chometz sh'over haPesach.
> > 2. Soft matzot are preferable to our regular matzot when one is
> sure the hasgacha. From the Ramah giving a maximum of 1 tefach it
> seems that they had soft matzot in his days. The advantage of soft
> matzot is that it easier to eat a kezayit in achilat peras,
> especially for those who eat 2 kezeytim.
>But that would only apply for the seder. Are they also preferable
>during the rest of Pesach, and if so why?
I wonder if this is the reason why some had the custom not to eat
matzah except by the seder.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moshe Shulman outre...@judaismsanswer.com 718-436-7705
Judaism's Answer: http://www.judaismsanswer.com/
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Message: 4
From: "Jay F Shachter" <j...@m5.chicago.il.us>
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2012 08:44:17 -0500
Subject: [Avodah] Sfardi Psaq On Matza And Qvi`ath S`udah
>
> But Sefardim say mezonos on normal matzos all year, and yet on
> Pesach they elevate it to hamotzi and use it for the mitzvah as well
> as for lechem mishneh
>
implying, based on standard rules of construction, that they would not
use it for lexem mishneh when it is not Passover.
I once had a Sfardi guest for Shabbath who did not accept my use of
matza for lexem mishneh, so the abovementioned implication seems to be
correct (at least, based on my N=1 sample size). But then I read the
responsum of `Ovadya Yosef that discusses the matter, and after
reading it I could not understand my guest's conduct, and suspected
that it was based on ignorance. Yes, accordance to `Ovadya Yosef,
matza, when not eaten on Passover, is mzonoth; but it is not spaghetti
mzonoth, it is the kind of mzonoth over which one should recite
hammotzi if it is used for qvi`ath s`udah. This conclusion was not
stated in his responsum, but I do not see how it can be avoided. So I
think my guest was mistaken, wrongly applying a law that he had been
taught, but I remain uncertain, doubly so in light of the confidence
with which the above-quoted excerpt was stated (although my
uncertainty is somewhat mitigated in light of the fact that the author
of the above-quoted excerpt states nearly everything with confidence).
I wonder whether, perhaps, my assumptions are incorrect regarding the
legal status of qvi`ath s`udah among the Sfaradi posqim. I invite
readers familiar with Sfaradi psaq to analyze the question, and I
thank you in advance for your replies.
Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter
6424 N Whipple St
Chicago IL 60645-4111
(1-773)7613784
j...@m5.chicago.il.us
http://m5.chicago.il.us
"The umbrella of the gardener's aunt is in the house"
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Message: 5
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2012 13:31:50 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Sfardi Psaq On Matza And Qvi`ath S`udah
On 1/04/2012 10:44 AM, Jay F Shachter wrote:
>>
>> But Sefardim say mezonos on normal matzos all year, and yet on
>> Pesach they elevate it to hamotzi and use it for the mitzvah as well
>> as for lechem mishneh
>>
>
> implying, based on standard rules of construction, that they would not
> use it for lexem mishneh when it is not Passover.
Yes, that is my understanding.
> Yes, accordance to `Ovadya Yosef,
> matza, when not eaten on Passover, is mzonoth; but it is not spaghetti
> mzonoth, it is the kind of mzonoth over which one should recite
> hammotzi if it is used for qvi`ath s`udah.
In other words, it's path haba'ah bekisnin. Can PhBbK be used for lechem
mishneh? In general the answer is "no", though there are hints to be found
in some poskim that there might be grounds for allowing it.
Keviut Seudah does not simply mean using it as the anchor for a meal;
there are shiurim given, ranging up to six beitsim or more, which is
quite a lot.
--
Zev Sero "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
are expanding through human ingenuity."
- Julian Simon
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Message: 6
From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 16:22:23 GMT
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Soft Matza
R' Micha Berger asked:
> Can matzah for the mitzvah be made from a belila rakah? Okay,
> it's not chameitz, but it is lekhem to qulify as lekhem oni?
> I could ask the same thing about Shabbos -- can you use two baked
> formerly belilos rakos for mishneh lekhem?
When making a seudah of pas habaah b'kisnin, it is indeed usable, at least
b'dieved, for several purposes, such as lechem mishneh (SSK 55:4) and even
the first two Seudos Shabbos (SSK 54:31). I would also point out that the
halachos of Pas Akum also apply to Pas Habaa B'kisnin.
Over the years, such halachos have led me to believe that there's really
not much difference between these two types of Pas, other than for the
bracha and for Hafrashas Challah.
However, much more relevant to Matzos Mitzvah is the MB 639:21 (which I was
led to be SSK 53, footnote 65) which says that on the first night(s) of
Sukkos, one must eat Pas, "and not minei targima, because it is a safek
d'Oraisa, and also not Pas Kisnin, but rather [one must eat] Pas Gamur."
Apparently, for Sukkos (and 15=15 leads me to presume that the same would
apply on Pesach) there's a safek on whether or not these other types of Pas
would suffice, and the MB says to be machmir.
> I concluded 3 years ago that wraps are hamotzi despite being
> belila rakah, which appears to close my question WRT matzos mitvah.
For all these years, I had thought that "oni" is the main definition of
"lechem oni". I had not realized to put considerable weight on the "lechem"
part too. Thank you.
Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
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Message: 7
From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 17:58:26 GMT
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Soft Matza
I wrote:
> For a very long time, the reason I learned was that this is just
> another in a long line of chumros adopted for chametz and matza.
> [...]
> Similarly, I was taught that although the halacha is to allow
> matza even up to a tefach thick, our practice (please note that
> I am not using the word "minhag") is to minimize the possibility
> of chometz by baking the matzos very thin.
R' Zev Sero responded:
> True, but "very thin" is defined for this purpose (e.g. in Ba'er
> Hetev) as an etzba, which is about 10 times the thickness of
> today's matzos.
>
> There are other proofs: all the poskim, right into the 19th
> century, talk about the baal habayis having the only ke'arah,
> and distributing from his matzos a kezayis to everybody. It's
> even specified that the middle matzah must be made bigger than
> the others, because each person needs a kezayis from its smaller
> half. Today's matzos barely have 3 kezeysim total, and there's
> no way to get more than one kezayis from the smaller half of the
> middle matzah.
I think RZS may have misunderstood me. I agree that the matzos used to
contain many more kezaysim than nowadays. My only point was that the reason
for changing to thin matzos was not so that they'd stay edible longer, but
to help insure -- to an even greater degree than in past generations --
that the matzos would be free of chometz.
I even cited other areas (avoidance of chalita, and combining the 18-minute
rule with non-stop kneading) where we are much more fearful of chometz than
previous generations were.
R' Meir Rabi wrote:
> The preference expressed by the Rama is not for HARD Matza but for
> THIN Matza. The Matza I produce is not more than 1mm thick, that
> is significantly less than machine made and hand made Matza.
I did not realize that. I don't want to intrude on your trade secrets, but I'm very curious how you get it to stay soft and fresh for so long?
Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
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Message: 8
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 17:52:05 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] hilchot pesach
<< 1. No problem cooking kitrniyot on the 7th day for the shabbat after
Pesach (for Ashkenazimn - obviously only in EY)
This is pretty clear. >>
The "chiddush" was that one could cook the kitniyot in a Pesadik pot on
Pesach for after Pesach.
whether this is obvious I leave to the reader
> Theoretically it also applies to real chametz
Obviously we are not talking about cooking chametz on Pseach. The case
would be more of one drinking whisky on the shabbat after Pesach
<<This could be got around very simply, by having the goy stipulate that he
gives permission for people to help themselves to his chametz after
Pesach.>>
In fact this is part of the standard contract. The only problem is that one
should pay for the whiskey used. This is easy if one personally sold
whiskey, harder in a mass sale. Thus, the problem is more a monetary
problem but that is still not a heter.
> 2. Soft matzot are preferable to our regular matzot when one is sure the
hasgacha. From the Ramah giving a maximum of 1 tefach it seems that they
had soft matzot in his days. The advantage of soft matzot is that it easier
to eat a kezayit in achilat peras, especially for those who eat 2 kezeytim.
<<But that would only apply for the seder. Are they also preferable
during the rest of Pesach, and if so why?>>
R. Avraham Yosef felt there would be advantages to soft matzah for the
seder. The rest of the week there is no advantage. All of this of course
depends on the ability to have proper supervision.
--
Eli Turkel
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Message: 9
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2012 13:39:14 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] The Hallel Recitation in the Synagogue on the First
From
http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/shorshei_hallel_pesach_nig
ht.pdf
Masekhet Soferim, which was composed during the early Ge'onic period,
records a custom to recite an additional hallel in the synagogue on the
night of Pesach, with a berakha. Some later writers claimed that this
recitation actually took place on the afternoon of Erev Pesach and served
to commemorate the hallel that was recited during the slaughtering of the
korban pesach. Most commentators, however, accept the straightforward
reading, that Masekhet Soferim refers to a synagogue reading held on the
night of Pesach.
The Ge'onim rejected this custom recorded in Masekhet Soferim, and
indeed, for many generations, Jews throughout Europe, Africa and Asia
did not conduct a synagogue hallel reading on the night of Pesach.
Numerous arguments were raised against this custom.
Please see the above URL for the rest of this article on this
topic. This article is from the Sefer Shorshei Minhag Ashkenaz,
Synopsis of Volumes I - IV in English. YL
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Message: 10
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 22:25:29 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] starting the seder
Is there any problem with starting davening early seder night and so
finishing maariv with Tzeit (or actually a little earlier)
by time one gets home it is tziet - say kriat shema and immediately start
kiddush
--
Eli Turkel
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Message: 11
From: David Wacholder <dwachol...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 16:00:30 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] why do we Kasher Counter-tops
1. Commercial kitchens use metal countertops. Those can be Kashered
without damage multiple times. .
2. Most domestic counters have glued on plastic covering, which will
melt on top or in the glue underneath. Brightly colored counters - with
possible exception of solid granite - will not be the same after
agressive Hag'ala with boiling water,. . Generally - if it is made to be
exposed to fire - you are safe.
3. Of course there is a lot room for leniency "ex post facto" .
4. ===
5. If it were technically feasible and safe we would do it. In my house
- countertops are "Mr. Clean"ed and then covered with a thick cover.
David Wacholder
Cell: 917-742-7838
Email: dwachol...@gmail.com
dwachol...@optonline.net
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Message: 12
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2012 13:44:27 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Leading Charedi Posek Says metzitza' Should Not
http://3wv.mp.sl.pt
or
http://www.
theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/123257/Clarification-From-HaRav-Shmue
l-Kamenetsky-Regarding-Metzitzah-B%27Peh.html
It appears that RSK was misrepresented.
--
Zev Sero "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
are expanding through human ingenuity."
- Julian Simon
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Message: 13
From: hankman <hank...@bell.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 14:41:26 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Leading Charedi Posek Says metzitza' Should Not
RMB wrote:
The question is whether halakhah makes this chiluq.
I argued that one in hundreds of thousands is milsa delo shekhachah, and
thus ignorable. See Arukh haShulchan OC 544:5. I don't see anyone being
choleiq between being the sibah or not being mosir hamoneia. I think
that is why the debate isn't over the piquach nefesh side of things,
but whether the chiyuv of beris milah means that metzitzah bepeh is
a chiyuv.
CM responds:
Your cite (Arukh haShulchan OC 544:5) puts me in Hilchos Chol Hamoed, and does not relate, was there a typo here?
Walking home from shul I mentioned this thread to a prominent Rov in town,
(not named as I did not ask if I could quote him publicly on this) he
responded that for pikuach nefesh there is no lower limit ? mephakchin olov
es hagal if there is the SLIGHTEST chance the man is still living ? without
concern for the issur Shabbos. So I don?t think (at least in the opinion of
this Rov) that ?milsa delo shekhachah? will play here at all. (of course
that is but one Rov?s opinion, others may disagree). Then wrt to one who is
a known virus carrier not withstanding the small probability, he did mince
words. He said ?is er a roitseach.? When asked about your argument about
crossing the street is a risk to life as well, he answered, ?you need to
apply some common sense.?
When I got home I thought about this a little more and using ?common sense?
besides the diff I already pointed out in my earlier post, there is
another clear difference. Sure if you cross the street there may be a small
risk to life, but if you choose not to cross the street and remain where
you are, say in your ?safe? bedroom, you are still exposed to some risk
(maybe a fire will start, maybe the gas furnace will explode, maybe the
house will be robbed and you kidnapped etc etc) so it is highly
questionable whether you have improved your risk profile by staying put and
not crossing the street. However, the mohel who is a carrier is a definite
new and additional (if small) risk with no counterbalance risk if you chose
instead a mohel who is not a carrier.
I found on my Otzar HaChachma in a collection of divrei Torah from talmidim
(koveitz Chidushei Torah) where he uses the well known chakira if rov is a
birur or a din to explain the machlokes between Rav and Shenuel whether
holchim bepikuach nefesh achar harov. In a case of 9 Cusiim and one Yisroel
where one was poreish to the next chatzer so kol deporush meruba porush
applies and the km?l is that you still remove the gal lefi Shemual. So we
need to understand to what extent Shemuel would go or whether this would be
a flat out rule with no exceptions.? See the Tos. Yuma 85a (top Tos.) where
he says, ?vechai bohem ... shelo yuchal lovo BESHUM INYAN lidei misas
Yisroel.?
Kol Tuv
Chaim Manaster
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Message: 14
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 17:43:18 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] costa concordia
On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 02:33:41PM -0400, Rich, Joel wrote:
: 1. Is the statement of the crew's obligation based on an "umdna" that
: this is what they get paid for? Is the expectation set by halacha or
: the company's training and employee's contractual obligations or is this
: some Halachic standard set outside of these agreements?
R. Ziulberstein understood that part of the wages of the crew and the
captain are to be in charge in times of emergency. He contrasted this with
a rebbe or rav kehilla or does not have such an obligation. He brought
several stories including the terrorists in Merkaz haRav and the Holocaust
that a Rav who takes care of talmidim at his own danger is considered a
chasid but he is not obligated, He further stated that a doctor in the
middle of an operation when missiles come or the enemy is entering the
hospital have a full right to leave in the middle of the operation. In all
these case in contradistinction to the crew a rebbe or doctor is not being
paid for the outside remote chance that there is a emergency of this nature.
: Bottom Line -- the horiyot priorities once again get treated as a tertiary
: methodology, unclear why.
Again R. Zilberstein said that the MIshna in Horiyot applies if one is
walking on a beach and sees people drowning in the river. The Costa
Concordia is different because the passengers paid for being on the boat
which includes a place on a lifeboat if needed.
Similarly if several people want to buy an article the mishna does not
apply. Here also each passenger has a monetary right to be on the lifeboat.
As such kedusha has no extra value. Only the laws of triage would apply.
Assuming all people are equal he felt that women and children are more
defenseless and so should be rescued first. I assume that if a woman were
an olympic swimmer she would not have extra privelges. He also assumed that
children and the old would panic easier and so disturb the saving of
people.
--
Eli Turkel
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