Avodah Mailing List

Volume 29: Number 17

Sun, 12 Feb 2012

• 1. Re: why stop learning? (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: A Mamzer Marrying a Shifchah (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: A Mamzer Marrying a Shifchah (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: A Mamzer Marrying a Shifchah (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: why stop learning? (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: tu beshvat (Micha Berger)
• 7. Tu Bishvat (Elazar M. Teitz)
• 8. Re: Terumos Umaaseros (Liron Kopinsky)
• 9. terumot and maaserot (Eli Turkel)
• 10. Re: why stop learning? (Ben Waxman)
• 11. Re: why stop learning? (Allan Engel)
• 12. Tu Bishvat (Elazar M. Teitz)
• 13. Re: terumot and maaserot (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 14. Jewish Law (Prof. Levine)
• 15. Y'tzias Mitzraim, Matan Torah and Kibud Av V'Eim (Prof. Levine)

On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 07:36:23AM -0800, Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote:
:> 2. Yissachar/Zevulun

: how is this a chessed? isn't this just a business deal, buying schar
: with money.....?

On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 11:46:43AM -0500, T6...@aol.com wrote:
: From: Ben Waxman <_ben1...@zahav.net.il_ (mailto:ben1...@zahav.net.il) >
:> I heard a  Gra story once in which someone who had the only lulav in town
:> allowed the  Gra to use it on condition that the owner get the zchut.
:> The Gra agreed but  later said that there is no such thing as giving away
:> a zchut. How he agreed  to the deal if it was worthless wasn't  explained.

: How it works is I do my part and Hashem does His.
...

Which is the Gra's point, according to the story. He quotes Acos (1:3)
about "hevu ke'avadamim hameshameshim es harav al menas shelo leqabel
peras".

For that matter, and this is why I included RSZN's post as well, I do not
believe the Gra really felt that zekhus is fungible. Rather, he thought it
a chance to relay a message about just doing your part and letting Hashem
worry about issues of reward.

If the protagonist were chassidish, perhaps.

Yissachar gets reward for learning, Zevulun gets reward for valuing
learning and willingness to sacrifice for another. Different mitzvos,
each with its own sechar.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Feeling grateful  to or appreciative of  someone
mi...@aishdas.org        or something in your life actually attracts more
http://www.aishdas.org   of the things that you appreciate and value into
Fax: (270) 514-1507      your life.         - Christiane Northrup, M.D.

On 10/02/2012 5:47 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 01:37:59AM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
>> On 9/02/2012 7:05 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>>> It's not my positions. It is those of every poseiq actually quoted on
>>> list. That's how halakhah is done, right?
>
>> No, I don't believe it is.
>
> My "that" was vague. Are you denying that halakhah is a matter of going
> to a poseiq rather than going with whichever sevara you personally find
> compelling, no matter whether anyone agrees?

Halacha is about sources.  Lo bashamayim hi.  


-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 02:38:33PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
>> My "that" was vague. Are you denying that halakhah is a matter of going
>> to a poseiq rather than going with whichever sevara you personally find
>> compelling, no matter whether anyone agrees?

> Halacha is about sources.  Lo bashamayim hi.  

Lo bashamayim hi means quite the reverse -- it means we follow the
majority DESPITE any heavenly or other knowledge about the sources.
Legal authority, not best odds of truth, win the day. If something could
possibly be true, the slimness of those odds -- as you assess them -- is
less of an issue than authority. Halakhah is made, not pulled from heaven.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

On 10/02/2012 2:51 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 02:38:33PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
>>> My "that" was vague. Are you denying that halakhah is a matter of going
>>> to a poseiq rather than going with whichever sevara you personally find
>>> compelling, no matter whether anyone agrees?

>> Halacha is about sources.  Lo bashamayim hi.

> Lo bashamayim hi means quite the reverse -- it means we follow the
> majority DESPITE any heavenly or other knowledge about the sources.

Huh?  The sources are here on earth.  And in the absence of smicha
they are our authorities.


[Email #2. -micha]

On 10/02/2012 1:04 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> I think RZS's invocation about "kol tenai shebemamon qayam" does address
> this concern. One doesn't need to discuss norms if both parties agreed
> to do the abnormal.

But is it valid? Is DdM just another variant on Minhag Hatagarim, or
even like Choshen Mishpat, stating the default rules from which anyone
is entitled to deviate? Or does it establish basic realities of baalus,
so that if DdM says this object belongs to A and not to B, and that this
doesn't depend on their will, then A may give B permission to use it, and
may agree not to sue him or challenge him and to act in all ways *as if*
B owned it, but it remains A's property because that's what the DdM says?


[EMail #3. -micha]

Further to my last message:

It seems to me that the basis of "kol tnai shebemamon kayam" is that
"hoda'at baal din keme'ah eidim", and that it's in someone's hands to
decline to press a valid claim, or to give permission for what would
otherwise be torts against him.

So if this woman, having consented to be a slave, were to sue her master
for making her work and stealing her earnings, or for disciplining her in
a manner that is consistent with hilchos eved kenaani, then her consent
should prevail in beis din, at least until she gives him clear notice
that she has withdrawn it. (And then it becomes a question of whether
this is one of those matters where irrevocable consent can be given,
or not. It would seem obvious to me that it is not, but both categories
exist in halacha, so it would have to be decided.)

However here we are not concerned with whether she can sue him or not,
but whether she *is* in fact a shifcha.

Let's do another thought experiment. Suppose he hits her in public,
and two eidim warn him, and he continues to hit her, explaining that
she is his shifcha and is entitled to exercise reasonable discipline.
So they take him to a beis din of smuchim, who are authorised to judge
dinei knossos and give malkos. (Never mind that such a beis din can't
be found today.) Upon being questioned, she openly states that she is
his shifcha, and she therefore accepts his right to discipline her as the
Torah authorises him, and has no complaints. But if she is not in fact
a shifcha then while her consent to be hit prevents her from suing him,
it doesn't prevent him from being prosecuted for the crime of hitting a
fellow yid, which is a lav in the Torah and carries a sentence of malkos.
So the beis din must decide whether she is in fact a shifcha, in the face
of our assumed DdM which says such a status can't exist. Does "kol tnai
shebamamon kayam" apply? This is no longer dinei mamonos. So how far
is the tnai in fact kayam?

I remind everyone, though, that this whole discussion applies only in
those countries where DdM in fact nullifies such baalus. Whether that's
the case in any specific country requires detailed research into its
laws, and quite possibly the history of those laws. In the USA, the
constitution does not prevent what we are discussing, but it may very
well be that there are statutes which do.

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

On 10/02/2012 10:36 AM, Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote:
>> 2. Yissachar/Zevulun
>
> how is this a chessed? isn't this just a business deal, buying schar
> with money.....?

Um, that's exactly what we're discussing, isn't it?

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 01:14:11PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: Rav Kook explains that the trees stand for the ways to achieve a goal
: while the fruit is the goal. VaYomer in Breishit signifies what G-d
: set as the ultimate goal that one should have the same outlook for the
: ways to achieve the goal and for achieving the goal itself. In real life
: people frequently suffer through a process in order to achieve a final
: goal both physically and spiritually. This is the VaYaas of the Torah as
: life is presently but the ultimate goal is given by the VaYomer. Hence,
: as is obvious the earth did not sin (it doesnt have free will) but
: rather G-d gave both the realistic way and the way one should strive to
: reach perfection.

I blogged about this RAYK
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2005/11/origins-of-imperfection.shtml>.

To quote R BZ Bokser's translation of Oros haTeshuvah:
    At the inception of creation it was intended that the tree have the
    same taste as the fruit. All the supportive actions that sustain any
    general worthwhile spiritual goal should by right be experienced in
    the soul with the same feeling of elation and delight as the goal
    itself is experienced when we envision it. But earthly existence,
    the instability of life, the weariness of the spirit when confined
    in a corporate frame brought it about that only the fruition of the
    final step, which embodies the primary ideal, is experienced in its
    pleasure and splendor. The trees that bear the fruit, with all their
    necessity for the growth of the fruit have, however, become coarse
    matter and have lost their taste. This is the failing of the "earth"
    because of which it was cursed when Adam was also cursed for his sin.

My take was part of looking at the origins of imperfection. Step 1,
I suggested:
    According to Rav Kook, the medrash gives the reason why the holiness
    of our goal is not felt in our day-to-day life. Our physical framework
    is limited and needs support. It requires our attention. The
    trees didn't embody the ideal because they were afraid for their
    survival. In truth, the mundane only exists to be the means to an end,
    but because of the needs of survival, it takes on its own reality.

    The second step occurs on day four, with Hashem's creation of
    the moon...

In particular, the Maharsha on Chullin 60b where the gemara says:
    ... But the moon complained to Hashem, "Can there exist two kings
    sharing the same crown?" How can both the sun and the moon share
    the glory? G-d replies, "Go and make yourself smaller." This pains
    the moon, and Hashem subsequently offers three consolations. When
    that fails, Hashem says that we are to bring a qorban to atone for
    His sin....

And the Maharsha, I summarized as:
    [T]he story is about the Jewish people and our goals vs the world
    at large and theirs. The Jews are compared to the moon (see, for
    example Qidush Levanah). Edom, the dominant power, is the sun. Why do
    we live in a world that seems to be dominated by Edom's principal,
    that might makes right? Why isn't holiness the dominant idea, and
    right make might?

Then the third step was the eating of the eitz hadaas, which may have
been the esrog and may have been only a problem because Chava and Adam
did so bein hashemashos rather than waiting for nighfall and full
Shabbos. So, it's associated with the fruit where ta'am eitzo upiryo
shaveh at a time when both kings share the crown (erev), causing an
irbuvya of tov vara within the soul.

To continue RBZB's translation of RAYK to provide a happy ending:
    But every defect is destined to be mended. Thus we are assured
    that the day will come when creation will return to its original
    state, when the taste of the tree will be the same as the taste of
    the fruit. The "earth" will repent of its sin, and the way of the
    practical life will no longer obstruct the delight of the ideal,
    which is sustained by appropriate intermediate steps on its way
    toward realization, and will stimulate its emergence from potentiality
    to actuality.


:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             We are great, and our foibles are great,
mi...@aishdas.org        and therefore our troubles are great --
http://www.aishdas.org   but our consolations will also be great.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Rabbi AY Kook

>>It is brought in the name of Chasidei Ashkenaz that on Tu Beshvat one
should pray to have a good etrog the following succot

>Since there are shittot in the Gemarra who hold that an Etrog's kviut
maaser goes after Rosh Hashana like a vegetable, even though we pasken
l'maaseh that an etrog *does* follow Tu B'shvat, it still seems that the
etrog is the least relevant fruit of the holiday. Do you know what the
original source of this idea is?<

     What does k'vius l'ma'aseir have to do with it? An esrog is a tree,
     and Tu Bishvat is rosh hashana for trees -- meaning that it is yom
     hadin for trees. Hence, a t'filla for a good esrog is certainly a
     davar b'ito.

EMT



____________________________________________________________
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The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
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On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 8:39 AM, kennethgmil...@juno.com <
kennethgmil...@juno.com> wrote:

> This also applies to the year in which the fruit was grown. One may mix
> his spring apples and his summer apples with no fear, but if one would mix
> Teves apples with Adar apples -- they may as well be apples and oranges.  I
> have heard that because of Tu B'Shvat's position on the harvesting
> calendar, it is unlikely that a farmer would ever confront this situation
> l'maaseh, but it is certainly an important concern l'halacha. It can also
> be an important point on the consumer level -- Suppose one has a bottle of
> olive oil which he purchased many months ago; he should not take terumos
> umaasros from it together with the bottle he bought today (unless a product
> code on the bottles can identify which year they're from).
>

In the middle of Massechet RH, so I have to ask:
Doesn't the keviut of fruit for terumot and maasrot go after chanata and
not lekita? As such, it would be squarely on the shoulders of the farmer to
make sure to properly label which fruit are from which year should any be
blossoming around this time.

Shavuah Tov,
Liron
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<< Rather, one must take teruma from the apples, and also teruma from the
oranges. If the two are evenly mixed, then one may take some apples&oranges
as teruma for the other apples&oranges, but if one tries this for maaser
they had better be very evenly mixed or the proportions won't come out
right. >>

I got lost on the application to maaser. We don't actually take out maaser
(unless you meant terumat maaser)
Rather we state that 10% in the north (for example) of each kind is now
maaser rishon and similarly for maaser sheni. Since the standard version is
"kol min al mono" it shouldn't make a difference what the percentages of
the mixture is. Of course as mentioned one needs to take out 1+% out of
each kind.

BTW if one buys two kinds of apples, as far as I know one takes out the 1+%
out of the total and not from each kind. In practice one also assumes that
they are from the same year unless known otherwise.

Just to stress that if one buys fruit from a supermarket or most places
selling fruits and vegetables most probably terumot and maaserot have
already been taken out several times at different levels. If one is getting
his fruits from someone's backyard then one can indeed assume they are from
the present year. However, in the supermarket they may come from storage.
Nevertheless I havent heard of people taking terumot from each apple
because maybe the storage apples are from different years.


-- 
Eli Turkel
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Possibly but apparently the Gra held that there was no such thing as 
transferring tzchut. Hence the story.

Ben

On 2/10/2012 6:46 PM, T6...@aol.com wrote:
> From: Ben Waxman <ben1...@zahav.net.il <mailto:ben1...@zahav.net.il>>
>
> I heard a Gra story once in which someone who had the only lulav in town
> allowed the Gra to use it on condition that the owner get the zchut.
> The Gra agreed but later said that there is no such thing as giving away
> a zchut. How he agreed to the deal if it was worthless wasn't explained.
>
> Ben
> >>>>>
> How it works is I do my part and Hashem does His.

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The gemoro that I alluded to earlier in this conversation states that
the actions of a child can cause benefit to a parent, but not the
reverse.

This would seem to contradict the assumption that anyone can engender
schar to anyone else at will.

     I wrote, "  What does k'vius l'ma'aseir have to do with it? An esrog is a tree, and Tu Bishvat 
is rosh hashana for trees -- meaning that it is yom hadin for trees. Hence, a t'filla for 
a good esrog is certainly a davar b'ito."

    However, this is a gross error.  I forgot (and was reminded off-list
    of) a mishna in Rosh Hashana 16a, that the din for fruiits is on
    Shavuos, not on Tu Bishvat.

EMT

____________________________________________________________
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R' Eli Turkel wrote:

> I got lost on the application to maaser. We don't actually take
> out maaser (unless you meant terumat maaser) Rather we state that
> 10% in the north (for example) of each kind is now maaser rishon
> and similarly for maaser sheni. Since the standard version is
> "kol min al mono" it shouldn't make a difference what the
> percentages of the mixture is. Of course as mentioned one needs
> to take out 1+% out of each kind.

This is exactly correct. As I wrote, I was leaving out many details.

> BTW if one buys two kinds of apples, as far as I know one takes
> out the 1+% out of the total and not from each kind. In practice
> one also assumes that they are from the same year unless known
> otherwise.

According to Mechaber YD 331:53 this too is correct; he adds that the rules
for "same species" are the same both here and for Kila'im. In this light,
it is interesting to note that the Chazon Ish Kila'im 3:7 considers it to
be a safek, whether esrog, lemon, orange and grapefruit might all be the
same species for these purposes.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
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The following is from RSRH's commentary of Shemos 19: 10 - 13

10 And God said to Moshe: Go to the people and 
sanctify them today and tomorrow and have them wash their garments.

11 Let them be ready for the third day, for on 
the third day God will descend before the eyes of 
all the people upon Mount Sinai.

12 Set a boundary around the people and say to 
them: Be careful not to ascend the mountain or 
even to touch a part of it! Whoever touches
the mountain shall be put to death.

13 Let no hand touch it! For he shall be stoned 
to death, or only thrown down, whether it be 
beast or man, it shall not live. When the horn of
dismissal will sound a long, drawn-out blast, 
they may ascend the mountain again.

Jewish Law is the only system of laws that did not emanate from
the people whose constitution it was intended to be. Judaism is the only
?religion? that did not spring from the hearts of the people who find
in it the spiritual basis for their lives. It is precisely this ?objective?
quality of Jewish Law and of the Jewish ?religion? that makes them
both unique, setting them apart clearly and distinctly from all else on
earth that goes by the name of law or religion. This quality makes Jewish
Law the sole factor in human culture that can be considered the catalyst
and ultimate goal of every other manifestation of progress, whereas the
Law itself, as the given absolute ideal, remains above and beyond any
idea of progress.

All other ?religions? and codes of law originate in the human minds
of a given era; they merely express the conceptions of God, of human
destiny, and of man?s relation to God and to his fellow man, that are
held by a given society in a particular period of history. Hence, all these
man-made religions and codes, like all other aspects of human civilization
? science, art, morals and manners ? are subject to change
with the passing of time. For by their very nature and origin they are
nothing but the expressions of levels reached by civilization at various
stages in human development.

Not so the Jewish ?religion? and Jewish Law. They do not stem from
beliefs held by human beings at one period or another. They do not
contain time-bound human concepts of God and of things human and
Divine. They are God-given; through them men are told by God?s Will
what their conceptions should be, for all time, about God and things
Divine and, above all, about man and human affairs.
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The following is from RSRH's commentary on Shemos 20 : 12

12 Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long 
on the land that God, your God, is giving you.

God based Jewish beliefs and convictions, and our acknowledgment
of Him as Master of our fate and Director of our actions, not on the
results of our research into nature, but on the historical experiences of
our people, by which God revealed Himself to us and revealed to us
His Will. Heaven and earth had spoken in vain to mankind; what is
worse, their pronouncements were twisted into polytheistic conceptions.
Only the revelations of God in the history of the Jewish people restored
to man's mind the monotheistic idea, enabling him to understand the
workings of nature and history on a monotheistic basis.

Y'tzias Mitzraim and Matan Torah are the two basic facts in the history of the
Jewish people that form the foundation of our allegiance to God as the
Master of our fate and the Guide of our lives. These two facts are historical
truths. However, the sole guarantee of their authenticity is tradition,
and tradition depends solely on its faithful transmission from parents to
children, and on its willing acceptance by children from the hands of their
parents.

Thus, the survival of the great Divine institution that is Judaism
rests entirely on the theoretical and practical obedience of children to
parents. Accordingly, Kibud Av V'Eim is the basic condition for the eternity of
the Jewish nation.

Through the father and the mother, God gives the child more than
just his physical existence. Parents are also the link that connects the
child to the Jewish past and enables him or her to be a Jewish man
or woman. From the parents the child receives the tradition of the
Jewish mission, which is shaped by knowledge, a code of conduct, and
upbringing. The parents transmit to the child Jewish history and Jewish
Law, so that eventually he, in turn, will pass them on to his own
children. Just as he looks up to his parents, so will his own children
someday look up to him. Without this connection between parents
and children, the chain of generations is broken, the hopes of the
Jewish past are lost for the future, and the Jewish nation ceases to
exist.
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