Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 198

Wed, 05 Oct 2011

• 1. Re: avot (mishna? as binding??) (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Evolution, Hashgachah and Tehillah (Lisa Liel)
• 3. : kosher switch (Chana Luntz)
• 4. Admin re: Tnu `Eyneykhem Liyofi (Micha Berger)
• 5. "Befi Yesharim" on Yamim Nora'im (Micha Berger)
• 6. Tekiah Gedolah (Micha Berger)
• 7. Subject: Some Thoughts and Questions About Yitzchak Meir Helfgot Selichot 2011 (Saul.Z.Newman@kp.org)
• 8. Re: Tekiah Gedolah (menucha)
• 9. ribis and being elevated? (status??) (Harvey Benton)
• 10. sakanas nefashot (Harvey Benton)
• 11. focussing v. obligations (Harvey Benton)
• 12. ancient tefillin?? (Harvey Benton)
• 13. Re: "Befi Yesharim" on Yamim Nora'im (Michael Kopinsky)
• 14. Re: focussing v. obligations (Zev Sero)
• 15. Re: ancient tefillin?? (Zev Sero)
• 16. Rav Yisroel Salanter - Teshuva On The Same Aveiros Year, After Year, After Year.... (Prof. Levine)
• 17. Re: focussing v. obligations (Simon Montagu)

On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 05:09:50PM -0700, Harvey Benton wrote:
: is the pirkei avot considered a mishna?...

The first 5 peraqim are mishnah, compiled by Rebbe just like the other
mesechtos of mishnah.

The difference is that pirqei avos are avos in the sense of avos malakhah.
(The Bartenura's translation, not mine.) IOW, they aren't rules of
behavior, they are values and rules of what you should be which interact
with the situations you face to produce those rules of behavior codified
in the other mesechtos -- as well as telling you which way you're pulled
when acting lifnim mishuras hadin.

So, aspiring for its goals is obligatory, but the specific behaviors used
to exemplify those goals may not be obligatory in every situation and
context.

: 2:. when the gemarra (judges,
: like reuben or david hamelech [l'kav schut??] did "they" get to their place?? 

They aren't judging, they are drawing lessons for us. And for that
matter, they aren't drawing lessons from the lives of Reuvein or David,
but from how they appear in Tanakh, how HQBH or the navi wants us to see
them. Which may emphasize details that were different than those central
to their actual lives. And to the extent that judgment is implied,
the permission to do so is inherent in the story being allowed to be
included in a book of instruction.

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Here is the test to find whether your mission
mi...@aishdas.org        on Earth is finished:
http://www.aishdas.org   if you're alive, it isn't.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Richard Bach

On 10/3/2011 6:18 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 10:07:26AM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
>    
>> I've also heard, regarding the express "ein mazal l'Yisrael", that much
>> of the world *does* operate randomly (based on the starting values
>> defined by Hashem), and that "mazal", or chance, is how the world works.
> Is "mazal" chance? We know that belief in astrology and knowledge that
> the stars move in predictable ways, and in particular, that the
> mazalos move together, coexisted. I would therefore think that the concept
> of "mazal" is more tied to fate and predestination, a mechanical and
> deterministic view of the forces of the universe.
> sister to te
>    
I don't see a distinction, really.  Whatever the mechanics of the 
universe itself are.  If it's chance, if it's fate... whichever it is 
without hashgacha pratit.

Lisa

> On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 09:55:49AM +0100, I  wrote:
> : But, it seems to me, the more innovative bit about this kosher switch
> is the
> : introduction of randomness.  The point being that, if you toss a
> coin, you
> : have a 50% chance of not getting a head.  If you toss it again, then
> you
> : only have a 25% chance of not getting a head on one of those two
> times.  If
> : you toss your coin again and again and again, the chances of you not
> getting
> : a head at least once gets smaller and smaller and smaller.  BUT the
> chance
> : that you never get a head remains (and will remain until infinity).
> So in
> : theory this kosher switch might *never* work, it just means that the
> : probability of it never working gets smaller and smaller and smaller
> the
> : longer time goes on (and the more coin tosses are done)....

And RMB replied

> At some point, the probability gets to be a small enough miut that it's
> ignorable.

Why?  If at any given point, you still have only a 50% chance of getting a
head?  

> IOW, I don't think being goreim something that rov of the
> time violates an issur is any more mutar than geramah of a vadai.

Well clearly there is such a concept - that is precisely the din of psik
resha.  If you want to do something mutar (eg move a bench) but your act
will vadai perform an unintentional issur (such as create a furrow) then it
is assur, if not, then mutar (even if you might create the furrow rov of the
time). The point is that if you cut off a chicken's head, it is vadai dead.

Now there we are dealing with a vadai act, just a lack of intent for the act
that constitutes the issur, eg the creation of a furrow.  Here the intent
for the result is there, but there are all the other aspects that arguably
make this into a grama.  And then layered on top is the lack of certainty
that anything will happen at any given moment.

> And even if there is a difference of which I'm unaware, how big of a rov
> can one not treat the same as vadai?

Now surely the same question has to be asked regarding psik resha.  (Of
course, the whole discussion about whether you indeed can have a live
chicken without a head presumably feeds into this - given the reported
reality of chickens without heads, does one not have to say that psik resha
has to be 99.9% at most (or whatever the figure is)).

> I think that threashold of nearly-always would be crossed relatively
> soon after flipping the switch if the manufacturer wants something
reliable
> enough that people would use it.

Indeed, as you can see from the figures, it would most of the time - but not
all the time, and at each moment in time, the chance would only be 50%, due
to an independent toss.  And the toss that might cause the thing to work has
not happened at the time you mechanically move the bit of plastic.  The only
thing that is working continuously is the coin toss generator, and that has
been working since erev shabbas, tossing coins, whether the bit of plastic
is moved or not.  It is only once you mechanically move the bit of plastic,
and then the coin toss generator does a coin toss, and if it then lands on
heads, the landing on heads causes the thing to work.  No heads, no work.
So why is not the correct analysis that the thing that actually does the
issur is the landing on a head, not any preliminary movement you do with the
plastic, and this head landing does not happen until after you have moved
the plastic, and in addition its arrival is by no means guaranteed,
certainly in any time frame?

The reality is that if this is your only option, you put up with things not
working on shabbas as smoothly as they do on weekdays.  I guess unlike most
of the rest of you, I work with a grama switch on a regular basis -
precisely because, as I have mentioned on this list before, I have an
extremely disabled son, who at aged 10 is too heavy to lift (even from his
wheelchair to his bed to change is nappy, not to mention take up the
stairs).   That means that, unless you are proposing that he should lie in
his bedroom for the 25 hours of shabbas (not to mention the three day yom
tovim we have just had) but then how would you feed him?  Or sit in his
wheelchair for that period, but then how would you change his nappy? We need
some sort of mechanism to get him from food to nappy change/bed and back.
We therefore have a Tzomet installed (well actually, Tzomet designed,
English lift manufacturer input and installed (we couldn't afford to
invalidate the warranty on the lift) Tzomet checked post installation) grama
switch on our lift.  It is both a life saver and a pain.  One of the
pleasures of motzei shabbas is pushing the regular switches again, which
give one the instant gratification that one is used to in electrical
appliances.  Nobody in their right mind uses the shabbas switches when it is
not shabbas or yom tov.

(Of course these work arounds are not just with grama.  We talked to Tzomet
about modifying our ceiling electric hoists so they could be used on shabbas
to hoist him from his wheelchair to the bed and back again, but we felt that
the grama solution they were proposing was quite dangerous in the context of
the hoists we have installed, as we couldn't see how, even with a seven
second delay (which is the minimum I believe they work with), we could stop
the bar of the hoist thumping down into him and potentially seriously
hurting him (the way they work during the week, you have continuous control,
you press up or down and keep pressed until you need it to stop, when you
immediately release).  We therefore purchased (isn't it amazing what you can
find on ebay!) a portable manual hydrolytic hoist which we use on shabbas
and yom tov.  This is, however, also both a life saver and a real pain.  It
is bulky and takes up room, it is not nearly so manoeuvrable and when
hoisting from the floor is very difficult to get the sling straps on (and
involves pulling him to almost sitting position, which is not great on our
backs either).)

But getting back to the grama switches, part of what is frustrating about
the lift is that you need to push a button to open its door (if not open),
put him in it, push a button to close the door, then push a button to send
the lift up, once the lift is up push another button to open the door and
take him out of it.  Adding additional delay at every step means a lot of
delay in the end (I tend to stand there with my head in a book, waiting).
However, the first push is not too bad, because you allow for the delay, ie
you go push the button to open the door *before* you wheel his wheelchair
round from the shabbas table to where the lift is.  Similarly, if you were
allowing for a reasonable time delay, you would push the switch a reasonable
amount of time before you really wanted it, so I think it would be a
reasonable adaption to make.  However, I suspect there would need to be a
certain level of willing before such adaption would be made (ie your "non
religious Jew" would need to at least be non hostile before they would be
prepared to use it). 
 
> GCT!
> -Micha

Gmar chatima tova

Chana

I approved this post in error, and am not accepting replies or further
discussion of it.

My apologies (well, it /is/ the season for it),
-micha,   in my role as Avodah's moderator

(A question launched by our discussion of the Koren Machzor on Areivim.)

Nusachei Sepharad and Sfard order the verbs in the four lines at the
end of Nishmas that begin "Befi Yesharim" so that their third letters
(the first of each shoresh) spell out the acronym "Rivqah", matching the
"Yitzchaq" spelled out by the initials of the nouns.

Nusach Ashkenaz only uses this ordering on Yamim Noraim.

First, does anyone know why?

Second, I find it very odd. We quote a pasuq that ends "layesharim navah
sehillah". Wouldn't it make sense for the next line to continue, "Befi
yesharim tis-hallal", rather than say that the mouths of the yesharim
exault Him, some other mode of praise?

Similarly the last line scans more smoothly to my eye. "Uveqerev qedoshim
tisqadash" is the sentiment we have in "uqedoshim bekhol yom yehalelukha
selah." When do we find qedoshim being the mis-halelim?

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It's nice to be smart,
mi...@aishdas.org        but it's smarter to be nice.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - R' Lazer Brody
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Tue, Oct 04, 2011 at 05:34:34PM +0000, shalomy...@comcast.net wrote to
Areivim:
: Our makri used the Koren Machzor, and we caught another error. I 
: forget exactly where (I think at the end of Shofarim in mussaf), but 
: the Koren had the last blast as Tekiyah, rather than T. Gedolah. The 
: tokea caught it, and had him correct his call. 

I'm not sure that's an error as much as a difference in minhag. Our
maqri intentionally only called a teqi'ah gedolah at the very end.

Also, I don't think there actually is such a thing as a teqi'ah gedolah
on a halachic level. I think it's pure minhag, and really just another
teqi'ah.

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is a glorious thing to be indifferent to
mi...@aishdas.org        suffering, but only to one's own suffering.
http://www.aishdas.org                 -Robert Lynd, writer (1879-1949)
Fax: (270) 514-1507

>seems to me to back up my observation that this is more of a concert 
than davening.  Is this the "appropriate" way to say Selichos?


--- referring  to the concert  style and its  hashpa'ah,  see the RH 
Mishpacha  article on the Chazzanim of  Belgium,  Millers I  believe, 
where  the 'concert' is actually televised, and  he says about  people who 
became closer to yiddishkeit  after  being  exposed to the service via 
TV....
.
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I'm not sure what delineates minhag as opposed to Halacha. (and I am 
surely not qualified to discuss this)
The Mahari"l has a tekia gedola at the end of tekiyot demeyushav, while 
the MB only has it at the very end.
gct
menucha

Micha Berger wrote:

>
>Also, I don't think there actually is such a thing as a teqi'ah gedolah
>on a halachic level. I think it's pure minhag, and really just another
>teqi'ah.
>
>
>
>  
>

when the gemarra states that a few people are eleveated 
in status, (eg, king, etc) their sins are forgiven, what does
this mean (eg what does it apply to?)
dinei mamonis (if he charged a fellow jew ribis is he patur?)
dinei shamayim? etc, 

mecz
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was having a disc on shabbas as to what defines (numbers - wise)
?a sakana?? riding on an airplane (now pretty safe)? [small planes
probably not so], today's helicopter crash in ny river highlights the 

point. what is/should we not be doing??
hb
At least one person died when a helicopter crashed into New York's East 
River, a Coast Guard official said, and emergency crews continue to work a
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eliyahu was from the time of the neviim (and thus 

before the tanaim even. however, there are me-
sorahs [that may or may not be accurate, which he
may or may not have to hold by...]
eg, is it written in nach anywhere that he has to 
provide us with tayku answers??
what if he refuses (for his own reasons (and or
Hashem's instructions....???
eg, 
he may have to work on setting up valid batei 
dinim, etc, 
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why some tefillin have 3 legged shins and some
4 (on either side??)
was it this way in ancient tefillin??

?
mecz
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On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 2:12 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> Similarly the last line scans more smoothly to my eye. "Uveqerev qedoshim
> tisqadash" is the sentiment we have in "uqedoshim bekhol yom yehalelukha
> selah." When do we find qedoshim being the mis-halelim?
>

The qedoshim are not the mis-halelim, they are the mehalelim.

KT,
Michael
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On 4/10/2011 5:35 PM, Harvey Benton wrote:
> eg, is it written in nach anywhere that he has to
> provide us with tayku answers??

Teiku means "let it stand".  The question remains unanswered.  The
notarikon "tishbi yetaretz kushyot uve`ayot" is post-facto folk
etymology.

-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

On 4/10/2011 6:06 PM, Harvey Benton wrote:
> why some tefillin have 3 legged shins and some
> 4 (on either side??)

Huh?  AFAIK all tefillin have one 3-headed and one 4-headed shin.  Where
have you seen tefillin that do *not* have these?


> was it this way in ancient tefillin??

As far as I know.


-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

 From http://revach.net/article.php?id=1061

The Rambam says that real teshuva means that Hashem, who knows the 
secrets of your heart, must testify that you will never return to the 
aveira again. That is a tall order! Most people would not even be 
comfortable testifying on themselves. How can we do teshuva if it 
requires a 100% guarantee on the future?

Reb Yisroel Salanter answers with a question on this Rambam. He asks 
why does he say, Hashem "who knows what is hidden in the heart". 
Shouldn't it say "who knows the future." Therefore he explains that 
the requirement of the Rambam is that a person must resolve honestly 
in the depths of his heart that will never do the aveira again. If he 
makes an honest resolution and really believes that he is so 
disgusted by the aveira that there is absolutely no possibility for 
him to slip yet again his teshuva is accepted. Even if he reverts to 
his old ways it does not negate the teshuva that he has done. That is 
why the Rambam says you need the testimony of Hashem who knows what 
thoughts lie in the heart of every man.

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On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 6:07 AM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
> On 4/10/2011 5:35 PM, Harvey Benton wrote:
>> eg, is it written in nach anywhere that he has to
>> provide us with tayku answers??

> Teiku means "let it stand".  The question remains unanswered.  The
> notarikon "tishbi yetaretz kushyot uve`ayot" is post-facto folk
> etymology.

The concept that EHN will answer unanswered questions exists independently
of the folk etymology/notarikon of "teyku", so I think RHB's question
still stands, mutatis mutandis.

I don't have an answer to it myself, unless resolving all mahlokot is
a prerequisite for "yashiv lev avot al banim velev banim al avotam"


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