Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 38

Fri, 11 Mar 2011

• 1. Re: Kedusha - Remaining Silent During the Chazzan's Recitation (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 2. Re: Kedusha - Remaining Silent During the Chazzan's Recitation (Dov Weinstock)
• 3. Re: Kedusha - Remaining Silent During the Chazzan's Recitation (Prof. Levine)
• 4. Re: yotzros (Zev Sero)
• 5. Mordechai and Esther (Eliyahu Grossman)
• 6. Minchas Elazar & Rav Moshe Feinstein - Hearing Megilas Esther Through A Microphone (Prof. Levine)
• 7. Re: The Origin of Novhardok's Nigun for "Be'ikvos Avoseinu" (Micha Berger)
• 8. chezi kaddish before mussaf (Ben Waxman)
• 9. Re: chezi kaddish before mussaf (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: chezi kaddish before mussaf (Ben Waxman)
• 11. Re: chezi kaddish before mussaf (Micha Berger)
• 12. Koach deHeteira Adif vs. Chumeros (Micha Berger)
• 13. tosafot (Eli Turkel)
• 14. Re: chezi kaddish before mussaf (Allan Engel)
• 15. Re: chezi kaddish before mussaf (Rich, Joel)
• 16. soft matza (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 17. Re: Kedusha - Remaining Silent During the Chazzan's Recitation (Zev Sero)
• 18. mitzva for a goy (Eli Turkel)

R' Y Levine wrote:
> Interested in knowing the "proper" way to say Kedushah?  Please
> see http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/Ashkenaz/kedusah.pdf
> Why is it that we have deviated so much from our Mesorah?

Halevai it should be only as bad as described there!

By my count, that article mentioned the congregation "joining" the chazan
five times. But in my experience, all too often the congregation does not
join the chazan, but they *lead* him, or perhaps even worse, they *ignore*
him. This pet peeve of mine is manifested several ways:

1) If the shul sings "K'vodo Malay Olam" and "Mimkomo" aloud and together,
that seems to be Rav Hamburger's complaint. But too many shuls go further,
by reducing "Kadosh Kadosh Kadosh" and "Baruch K'vod" to being recited (in
some cases, mumbled) by each individual at the same time, but not what I
would call "in unison".

2) I sometimes find that when the shul sings "K'vodo Malay Olam" and
"Mimkomo", they do not realize that the tune they're using differs from the
one that the chazan is using. This is what I meant above by the shul
leading or ignoring the chazan.

3) Often, the shul doesn't even bother to sing the words of the long
sections, but they simply go "la la la" to the tune that they think the
chazan is using. My practice is to stay quiet and try to hear which words
the chazan is up to, but often the shul is too loud. I do my best to follow
in the siddur, and match each "la" to the next syllable, but as recently as
this past Shabbos, I somehow ended up saying "Yimloch" long before the shul
was up to it.

I am not ashamed of longing for the way Musaf Kedusha was said in the
Conservative congregation where I grew up, in which "Kadosh Kadosh Kadosh"
was sung in beautiful unison by everyone, in a tune where each "Kadosh" was
of a progressively higher note than the one before. THAT was a kiyum of, as
Rav Hamburger put it in that article, "the manner in which the heavenly
angels recite kedusha."

Akiva Miller

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>>>Why is it that we have deviated so much from our Mesorah?  YL<<<

Probably because that is how it is printed in the siddur.
Similarly, in the shul where I grew up, the responsive recital of 'Hodu
L'Adonai' in Hallel was not done in the traditional manner. 

Anyway, if you think this is the most egregious deviation in minhag, you
should read R Sperber's work on Minhagim. Last week I came across a chapter
in which he describes customs that contradict explicit halachot, e.g. a
custom in a part of Ashkenaz to drink stam yeinam, which even the Rema in a
teshuva refused to condemn (although he states strongly that no one should
adopt this custom), and even de-orytas, e.g. kohanim who would go to pray at
kivrei tzadikkim.


Dov Weinstock   

At 11:57 AM 3/10/2011, Dov Weinstock wrote:
>Probably because that is how it is printed in the siddur.

I recall seeing a preprint of the Artscroll Siddur years ago in which 
beside the first line of Kaddish, it said Chazon or something like 
that.  When the was printed later, this was omitted.

YL
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Nusach Italiani has yotzros but *not* krovos for each of the four
parshios and Shabbos Hagodol.  It also has no krovos for Taanis Esther
or Purim (but it does for the other fasts).  And on Shabbos Hagodol
it has an announcement of the coming festival, just as Rosh Chodesh is
announced on Shabbos Mevorchim, in each case including a clear statement
that this calendar is authorised by Chazal.  (Actually the Shabbos Hagodol
announcement attributes it to "Rabbi Eliezer Hagodol" rather than Hillel
Nesiah; I don't know what's behind that.  The Rosh Chodesh announcement
just says "rabbosenu hamechuvodim".)

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

> From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
> Subject: [Avodah] Moshe Rabbenu and his family
> Just came from a shiur of R. Benny Lau and he pointed out that most of our
> impressions of Mordecai and Esther and the Jewish community come from
> midrashim.
> Basing himself strictly on the pshat and what he admitted was a minority
of
> midrashim he had a completely different take on the entire story (He just
> published a book on the topic)
>
> -- 
> Eli Turkel

What is the title of the book? I would be interested in reading it, and
could not find any reference on the Internet.

I recently attended a shuir by a local Rav who spoke of the Midrash that has
Achashveiros celebrating because of the end of the 70 year period of Jewish
exile (with a calculation error) as but one opinion, and that the entire
story takes on a different flavor if you move it before/during/after the
building of the second Temple. Many would have a problem with Mordechai, a
member of the Men of the Great Assembly and leader of the Jews of his area,
remaining a chutznik, taking a cushy job (pun intended), and lots of
benefits rather than following Ezra and Nechamiah. And so making it BEFORE
takes the sting out of it. I personally like to consider all three
possibilities, since my liking seems to vary from reading to reading!

All the best.

Eliyahu Grossman
Efrat, Israel

 From http://revach.net/article.php?id=5003

Please note that I am simply quoting what this web site says,  The 
English is not mine!  YL


Most poskim hold that by hearing the Megila through an electronic 
device like microphone, telephone, or hearing aid one is not Yotzei 
Krias Megila. The reason is you are not hearing the voice of the Baal 
Korei but rather sounds created by a machine mimicking the sounds of 
the Baal Korei.

The Minchas Elazar held that you are Yotzei this way. He reason that 
even when you hear it directly from the Baal Korei you are not 
hearing his words but waves flying through the air, and it there is 
even a slight delay from when the words are spoken until you hear 
them. The only difference with a microphone is that the machine takes 
these waves and amplifies it. Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igros Moshe OC 
2:108) gives credence to these arguments but says he is not clear 
exactly how it works.

The Tzitz Eliezer also says we should not scorn those who are Meikil 
B'Shaas Hadchak. Rav Vosner (Shevet HaLevi 5:84) says that he agrees 
with Rav Moshe that technically it may be mutar although they both 
agree that it should not be done even if the microphone will allow 
many more people to hear it together BiRov Am. Rav Vosner goes as far 
as to say that if you heard it through a microphone you must hear it 
again but without a bracha.

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On Tue, Mar 08, 2011 at 11:13:58AM -0800, Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote to
Areivim:
: http://onegshabbat.blogspot.com/2011/03/blog-post_06.html     navardok 
: borrowed their niggun.....

Knowing a little about their derekh, I would think that the borrowing
of martial music was intentional.

The Alter of N would often use military terminology, taking "HAKOVEISH
es yitzro" quite literally. "One must storm the fortress!" with loud
song and passionate hispaalus.

The whole end of their practice which led people to associate N with
qatnus haadam (mostly in contrast to Slabodka's gadlus ha'adam) is more
like Boot Camp. The bachur was torn down in order to be rebuilt stronger.

A centerpiece of N is to build such a baal bitachon, he wouldn't be
tempted by the allure of the Isms (Communism, Secular Zionism, etc...)
that were pulling bachurim away from shemiras hamitzvos in those days.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It's never too late
mi...@aishdas.org        to become the person
http://www.aishdas.org   you might have been.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                      - George Elliot

In many shuls on Shabbat morning the Rav gives a talk after the sefer Torah
has been put back in the ahron. After the talk the shaliach tzibbur says
chezi kaddish and then mussaf. This order makes sense especially if you
look at chezi kaddish as Rav YBS saw it, as the vehicle which joins
individuals into a minyan. 

Yet on Rosh Chodesh, we say Ashrei and U'ba L'zion, the STZ says kaddish,
everyone takes off their teffilin and then some people start and some wait
for the STZ. Why doesn't the STZ just wait to say chezi kaddish as we do on
Shabbat?

Ben
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On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 09:17:04PM +0200, Ben Waxman wrote:
: In many shuls on Shabbat morning the Rav gives a talk after the sefer
: Torah has been put back in the ahron...

Totally different question... Why isn't it a Qaddish deRabbanan as it's
closing the derashah?

...
: Yet on Rosh Chodesh, we say Ashrei and U'ba L'zion, the STZ says
: kaddish, everyone takes off their teffilin and then some people start
: and some wait for the STZ. Why doesn't the STZ just wait to say chezi
: kaddish as we do on Shabbat?

Because you don't go to the right minyan. As RYL recently asks me, who
is the "we" in that paragraph?

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy'
mi...@aishdas.org         'Joy is nothing but Torah.'
http://www.aishdas.org    'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l

So in  your opinion, the minyanim who do it the way I described are simply 
making a mistake?

Ben
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org>
> : Yet on Rosh Chodesh, we say Ashrei and U'ba L'zion, the STZ says
> : kaddish, everyone takes off their teffilin and then some people start
> : and some wait for the STZ. Why doesn't the STZ just wait to say chezi
> : kaddish as we do on Shabbat?
>
> Because you don't go to the right minyan. As RYL recently asks me, who
> is the "we" in that paragraph?
>

On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 09:59:16PM +0200, Ben Waxman wrote:
>>: Yet on Rosh Chodesh, we say Ashrei and U'ba L'zion, the STZ says
>>: kaddish, everyone takes off their teffilin and then some people start
>>: and some wait for the STZ. Why doesn't the STZ just wait to say chezi
>>: kaddish as we do on Shabbat?

>> Because you don't go to the right minyan...

> So in  your opinion, the minyanim who do it the way I described are 
> simply making a mistake?

You overestimate my self-awareness. I'm just telling you what my minyan
does. I didn't actually consider issues of right-and-wrong.

Off the cuff, it's obviously wrong -- but perhaps necessary on work-days
-- to have the tzibbur rush in taking off their tefillin. Lack of kavod.
RYBS held that it's better to continue wearing one's tefillin through
mussaf than to not put them fully away before davening. At least, if
one isn't saying "Keser". He was less sure for those davening Sfard,
not giving a definitive pesaq (as I remember my father repeating it).

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy'
mi...@aishdas.org         'Joy is nothing but Torah.'
http://www.aishdas.org    'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l

RYL asked me in a posting to Areivim about "kashrus lemehadrin" and
implicitly about chumeros in general. How can this be a good idea if
"koach deheteira adif"?

Yet AFAIK, RYL doesn't eat qitniyos on Pesach. 

"Koach deheteira adif" is often misunderstood.

The idiom is used when there is a machloqes tannaim that has two possible
cases, one has more reason to be lequlah than the other. The makhloqes
will be phrased as being about the more machmir case, because it's more
important to show how meiqil the tanna who is matir actually is being.

It's only used twice, Berakhos 60a and Beitza 2b. As Rashi puts it
in Beitza ("deheteira adif leih"), "tov lo lehashmi'einu koach divrei
hamatir".

Chumeros (in the sense of going beyond what one believes is mandatory)
are a powerful tool for avodas Hashem. Like all powerful tools, that is
all the more reason why one has to be careful to use them wisely.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             You will never "find" time for anything.
mi...@aishdas.org        If you want time, you must make it.
http://www.aishdas.org                     - Charles Buxton
Fax: (270) 514-1507

> RET, you yourself then turned this into its own thread
> <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=T#TOSAFOT>. So, when
> you say "I never like the phrase 'Stirah' for Tosafot" I can attest it's
> been true for at least 10-1/4 years.

You have a better memory than I do.

[No, I hit Google and the Avodah archive more readily. -micha]

If one wanted to do some research then read Baale Hatosafot by Urbach
who tries to determine which collection of tosafot were used in various
masechtot.

While I agree that achronim try to answer stirot in tosafot between
different masechtot it still doesn't make sense. The original printers
printed tosafot on the side depending on what manuscripts they had
available.

I was just learning Baba Batra 8b tonight and the same general tosafot
appears in several maschettot each one being different. Some quote a
shitah in the name of Rabbenu Tam and give 2 answers while others quote
it anonymously with only one answer.

On a slightly different topic we covered a teshuva of the Maharik who
quotes a Ri which he identifies as either Ri Hazaken or Ri Bachur.
Ri Hazaken is the standard Ri in Tosafot (nephew of R. Tam) who is
Ri Bachur?

-- 
Eli Turkel

On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 7:17 PM, Ben Waxman <ben1...@zahav.net.il> wrote:
>  In many shuls on Shabbat morning the Rav gives a talk after the sefer
> Torah has been put back in the ahron. After the talk the shaliach tzibbur
> says chezi kaddish and then mussaf. This order makes sense especially if you
> look at chezi kaddish as Rav YBS saw it, as the vehicle which joins
> individuals into a minyan.

My Rav recently changed the procedure slightly. On the rare occasions that
he speaks before Mussaf, the kehillo stops after Mizmor LeDovid, then he
speaks, then they resume with Uvnucho Yomar followed by kaddish.

I haven't asked him why he changed the previous practice.

My Rav recently changed the procedure slightly. On the rare occasions that
he speaks before Mussaf, the kehillo stops after Mizmor LeDovid, then he
speaks, then they resume with Uvnucho Yomar followed by kaddish.

I haven't asked him why he changed the previous practice.

_______________________________________________
Perhaps if you view that kaddish as being the closer before musaf it needs to be attached to a premussaf prayer.
KT
Joel Rich
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http://www.softmatza.com/ is there anything in halacha that assurs this 
type of matza  for ashkenazim?


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On 10/03/2011 11:57 AM, Dov Weinstock wrote:
> custom in a part of Ashkenaz to drink stam yeinam, which even the Rema in a
> teshuva refused to condemn (although he states strongly that no one should
> adopt this custom)

1. The teshuvah is not from the Rema.  It was accidentally included in
the first edition of teshuvos haRema, and was omitted from the second
edition.

2. The author certainly does condemn this "custom".  What he does not do
is condemn the ignorant Moravians who practise it in good faith, since he
assumes that they must once have had an incompetent rabbi who permitted it.
To make this assumption plausible, he demonstrates a faulty chain of logic
which leads to such a conclusion, and which might have occurred to this
hypothetical person.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

puzzle - which mitzva today can a goy do that a Jew cannot?

---
from the same shiur with regard to an old discussion on timtum ha-lev
the Netziv and Mesech Chochma claim that if one eats a nevela to save
one's life there is still timtum halev. Therefore they explain the
preference
to slaughter an animal on shabbat to save a person rather than feed them
nonkosher
food. Thus, timtum halev is a more physical effect rather than purely
halachic

shabbat shalom

-- 
Eli Turkel
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