Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 174

Tue, 14 Sep 2010

• 1. Re: slichos skipping (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 2. Chosmeinu (Allan Engel)
• 3. Testing Hashem with Maaser (Tal Moshe Zwecker)
• 4. Re: Testing Hashem with Maaser (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Testing Hashem with Maaser (Rich, Joel)
• 6. Re: Testing Hashem with Maaser (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Testing Hashem with Maaser (Yitzchok Zirkind)
• 8. Re: Testing Hashem with Maaser (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: Testing Hashem with Maaser (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: Chosmeinu (Yitzchok Zirkind)
• 11. Re: Chosmeinu (Liron Kopinsky)
• 12. Re: Which way to Jerusalem? (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: judges for a minyan (Danny Schoemann)
• 14. which way to Jerusalem (Eli Turkel)
• 15. Re: which way to Jerusalem (Simon Montagu)
• 16. Re: which way to Jerusalem (Gershon Dubin)
• 17. Re: which way to Jerusalem (Micha Berger)

R' Saul Newman asked:

> curious if anyone sees shuls skipping parts of slichos,
> and if so which?

Both at Yeshivat Ohr Somayach in the 70s, and at JEC in Elizabeth (other
Elizabeth shuls differ) since then, we have skipped selected Kinos on Tisha
B'Av, and selected Selichos on Erev RH. I never really tried to figure out
any pattern of which were chosen, but I could send you a list if anyone
wants to analyze it. [Of course, at Ohr Somayach we said Vidui only once,
instead of thrice, but that is the general Minhag Eretz Yisrael, so I don't
count it as skipping.]

As far as the other days of Selichos, we don't skip any of the main
Selichos, in that we get the full number of Yud-Gimel Middos. However other
things do get skipped; for example, during Aseres Ymei Teshuva, we skip the
selicha which is between Chatanu Tzureinu and Zechor Lanu Bris Avos.

Also, I've long suspected that some of what comes after Vidui gets skipped.
I can never be sure, because (in my experience) no chazan ever says any of
it out loud. (If anyone can explain why Selichos is different than Psukei
Dzimra or Hallel, I'd appreciate it.) But I do see people putting their
heads down for Tachanun, and they finish so very fast that I'd really like
to believe that they're skipping *something*.

> other than some large MO shuls, is any other places doing
> slichos after maariv [ ie  pre-chatzot]?

When I was at YU in the 70's (which might count as MO, but is certainly
more of a yeshiva than a shul) there were big crowds for Selichos
immediately after the 10 pm Maariv.

Akiva Miller

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If the words of the piyyut "Berosh hashono yikoseivu, uveyom tzom kippur
yeichoseimu" are correct, (mirrored by the the way we greet people after
Rosh Hashono - Gemar Chasimo Tovoh) why do we wait until Neiloh to say
"Chosmeinu" in Ovinu Malkeinu? Should we not start saying it after Rosh
Hashono?
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Does anyone know a source saying that we should NOT test Hashem through giving maaser? 

I seem to remember there being a dissenting opinion to the one found in
Rama YD 247 besides the ones quoted in Pischei Teshuva, like a modern day
posek saying that bezeman hazaeh we should not test Hashem this way, anyone
know?

Thanks
Kol Tuv,
R' Tal Moshe Zwecker
Director Machon Be'er Mayim Chaim
Chassidic Classics in the English Language
www.chassidusonline.com
chassidusonl...@gmail.com
Phone: 972-2-992-1218 / Cell: 972-54-842-4725
VoIP: 516-320-6022 / eFax: 1-832-213-3135
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On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 02:59:14AM +0200, Tal Moshe Zwecker wrote:
: I seem to remember there being a dissenting opinion to the one found
: in Rama YD 247 besides the ones quoted in Pischei Teshuva, like a modern
: day posek saying that bezeman hazaeh we should not test Hashem this way,
: anyone know?

Maaser bizman hazeh is derabbanan. There is a question as to whether it
comes with the same berakhah. (Similar to the question of whether poultry
and milk, presuming it's also derabbanan, causes timtum haleiv.)
See <http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2007/07/safeiq-derabbanan.shtml>.

The shitos of the the Meshekh Chokhmah and the Me'iras Einayim would
imply the test wouldn't work. (The MC writes about owf bechalav, the
SMA about the berakhah of shemittah.) The idea is that a derabbanan is
a good idea as a practice, but doesn't reflect metaphysical "entities".

To show the other side, R' Elchanan Wasserman, the SA haRav, and the
CI all make comments that imply that they do believe that dinim
derabbanan have metaphysical effect.

AFAIK, though, no one dissents about the idea that maaser is the one area
in which we are called upon to test HQBH, the exception to the rule. (Why
isn't shemittah counted?) However, one could argue this is only maaser
deOraisa, as no such promise was given to derabbanan.

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When memories exceed dreams,
mi...@aishdas.org        The end is near.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - Rav Moshe Sherer
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Does anyone know a source saying that we should NOT test Hashem through giving maaser?

I seem to remember there being a dissenting opinion to the one found in
Rama YD 247 besides the ones quoted in Pischei Teshuva, like a modern day
posek saying that bezeman hazaeh we should not test Hashem this way, anyone
know?

Thanks
Kol Tuv,
R' Tal Moshe Zwecker
 -------------------------
See Aruch Hashulchan Y"D 147:6 for quote of dissent (test just by maaser, not tzedaka)
GCT
Joel Rich
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On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 09:22:35PM -0400, Rich, Joel wrote:
: See Aruch Hashulchan Y"D 147:6 for quote of dissent (test just by
: maaser, not tzedaka)

My AhS skips from YD 122 (nosein ta'am lifgam) to YD 183 (niddah).
Our friends at http://he.wikisource.org/wiki/????_??????_????_??? say the
manuscript was known to have existed and been passed down in the family,
but lost before publication.

GCT!
-Micha

On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 9:36 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 09:22:35PM -0400, Rich, Joel wrote:
>: See Aruch Hashulchan Y"D 147:6 for quote of dissent (test just by
>: maaser, not tzedaka)

> My AhS skips from YD 122 (nosein ta'am lifgam) to YD 183 (niddah).

Typo should be 247:6

GCT

-- 
Kol Tuv,
Yitzchok Zirkind

On 14/09/2010 11:36 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 09:22:35PM -0400, Rich, Joel wrote:
> : See Aruch Hashulchan Y"D 147:6 for quote of dissent (test just by
> : maaser, not tzedaka)
  
> My AhS skips from YD 122 (nosein ta'am lifgam) to YD 183 (niddah).
> Our friends at http://he.wikisource.org/wiki/????_??????_????_??? say the
> manuscript was known to have existed and been passed down in the family,
> but lost before publication.

I believe this is the manuscript discovered by R Simcha Fishbane about
25 years ago, and published in his edition of AhS.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

I wrote:

> I believe this is the manuscript discovered by R Simcha Fishbane about
> 25 years ago, and published in his edition of AhS.

Never mind.  That was hil' nedarim ush'vuot, not these halachot.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Allan Engel <allan.en...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If the words of the piyyut "Berosh hashono yikoseivu, uveyom tzom kippur
> yeichoseimu" are correct, (mirrored by the the way we greet people after
> Rosh Hashono - Gemar Chasimo Tovoh) why do we wait until Neiloh to say
> "Chosmeinu" in Ovinu Malkeinu? Should we not start saying it after Rosh
> Hashono?

There is a difference between what we pray for ourselves (considering
ourselves a Beinuni that is Tolui till Yom Kippur) and what we say to others
considering them Tzadikim (Lvush 596)

GCT
Yitzchok Zirkind

On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 3:38 PM, Allan Engel <allan.en...@gmail.com> wrote:

> If the words of the piyyut "Berosh hashono yikoseivu, uveyom tzom kippur
> yeichoseimu" are correct, (mirrored by the the way we greet people after
> Rosh Hashono - Gemar Chasimo Tovoh) why do we wait until Neiloh to say
> "Chosmeinu" in Ovinu Malkeinu? Should we not start saying it after Rosh
> Hashono?
>

My personal answer:
It terms of greeting other people, you assume they were all written for
chayim on RH and just need a gmar chatima tova to seal the deal.

In terms of our own requests, we allow that we may have had a bad gzar din,
and want hashem to tear it up and write a new one. Only at neilah is there
no more writing and only sealing.

Kol Tuv,
Liron
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On 13/09/2010 11:05 PM, David Riceman wrote:
> Me:
>>>
>>> When I was young I was told that we use the reverse of the
>>> course our ancestors took to get here, which is why we don't
>>> use the great circle route.
>>
>> RZS:
>> From which direction did Jews (let alone "our" ancestors -- whose?) arrive
>> in San Francisco? Did they come from the east or the south? Should shuls
>> in Texas and surrounding states point towards Galveston?

> I asked those same questions, and was told that the bulk of American Jewry
> arrived via the east coast, and the bulk of Jews in the west came via the
> east.

The first Jews came to New York as refugees from Recife. Subsequently
much of the early Jewish immigration to what is now the north-eastern
USA was from Jamaica.  Surely, according to this theory, they should
have davened to the south.  Then, as the source of the "bulk" changed,
at some point their qibla should have changed to the east?  When should
this change have happened?  And if in the next decade a whole lot of
Jews will move in from Canada, should it change to the north?

In addition, as a matter of metzius I believe that the bulk of Jews in
the south came through Galveston, not through New York.



> I don't know how this explanation would hold up in the era of
> migration via airplane, but it does explain, for example, why Bavel
> and EY are each north of the other.

I don't believe that was because of how they originally came to that
country, but because of how one would go to the other country.  To get
from EY to Bavel one would go north, and to get from Bavel to EY one
would also go north; to people who had never seen a map, that was how
they thought of it.  Nevertheless, the direction of tefillah in Bavel
was to the west, not to the north.  And they referred to EY as "maarava",
not as "tzipuna".

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

From an Areivim discussion:

>> R' Eli Turkel wrote:
>> As the rabbi later told the brother because he wouldn't come to a mixed seating
>> wedding a few hundred people ate treif food instead of kosher.

> R' Zev Sero replied
> "Ein omrim la'adam chatei bishvil sheyizkeh chavercha."

Not that simple; this "rule" has limited application.

It does apply if the sinner was negligent; the case mentioned is where
somebody put bread in the oven on Shabbat and having somebody else
remove it before it bakes is a minor compared to the Melacha of
baking.
Tos. in Shabbat 4a "Vechi Omrim" seems to define "negligent" as where
the sinner has already started doing the sin.

For some cases when this rule does not apply, see there and Tos.
"Kofin Es Rabbo" - Chagiga 2b

It does not apply if the sinner will do a "minor sin" to prevent
another from doing a "major sin". E.g.:
- Freeing a half-slave (minor) so that he doesn't transgress "not
getting married" (major)
- Bringing a sin offering after the afternoon Tamid (minor) to prevent
somebody from missing out on Korban Pessach (major)
- Separating"uM remotely (minor) so as to prevent Tevel being eaten (major)

An argument could be made for somebody to have to attend a mixed
wedding (Chumra) to prevent a few hundred people from eating treif
food (sin).

- Danny

On 8/09/2010 9:58 PM, Simon Montagu wrote:
> article here at aishdas: http://www.aishdas.org/articles/mizrach.htm
 >Apparently it's a mahloket aharonim whether we use rhumb lines or great
> circles.

I am confused by the entire discussion. It is clear that at least many of chazal
and rishonim did not even know the earth was a sphere (well almost) and I doubt
if any of them knew about great circles or rhumb lines.

The navi says that the evil come from the north even though Babylonia
was to the east
because armies would almost come through Syria and not through the
Jordanian desert.
Do we even know what direction they prayed in Bavel, ie   did they
realize that EY
was almost due east (again depending on where in Bavel)? since no one
traveled that way?

BTW as to being precise people davening at the kotel usually daven
straight ahead
even though the kodesh hakadsohim would have slightly to the left.


-- 
Eli Turkel

On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 2:33 AM, Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com> wrote:

> BTW as to being precise people davening at the kotel usually daven
> straight ahead
> even though the kodesh hakadsohim would have slightly to the left.
>
>
OT1H some people, like the late R Getz zt"l make a point of davening in the
kotel tunnels at a point opposite the KHK, but OTOH both they and you are
assuming that we know exactly where the KHK was, and I don't see that we do.
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<<Do we even know what direction they prayed in Bavel, ie   did they
realize that EY was almost due east (again depending on where in Bavel)? since no one
traveled that way?>>

Surely they knew that;  they called E"Y Maarava.

Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com

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On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 04:08:36AM -0700, Simon Montagu wrote:
: OT1H some people, like the late R Getz zt"l make a point of davening in the
: kotel tunnels at a point opposite the KHK, but OTOH both they and you are
: assuming that we know exactly where the KHK was, and I don't see that we do.

Since the point of where to turn one's face is to help turn one's heart,
and in cases where one can't physically turn (e.g. the gemara's case of
davening while riding in a caravan) that is actually invoked lehalakhah,
I don't see the problem here.

One can't face more specfically, due to ignorance. Therefore, face one's
best guess as to where the QhQ was, as that will help putting one's heart
in the right place.

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Between stimulus & response, there is a space.
mi...@aishdas.org        In that space is our power to choose our
http://www.aishdas.org   response. In our response lies our growth
Fax: (270) 514-1507      and our freedom. - Victor Frankl, (MSfM)


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