Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 32

Mon, 01 Feb 2010

• 1. re ingredients (martin brody)
• 2. Re: re ingredients (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 3. Re: saying kaddish together (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: How much is an Omer? (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 5. Re: How much is an Omer? (Danny Schoemann)
• 6. Re: saying kaddish together (Harry Weiss)
• 7. Re: saying kaddish together (Chanoch (Ken) Bloom)
• 8. Women and kaddish (Ben Waxman)
• 9. G"d will take from among the gentiles Kohanim (Arie Folger)
• 10. Re: How much is an Omer? (Ben Waxman)
• 11. Re: How much is an Omer? (Arie Folger)
• 12. Re: How much is an Omer? (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 13. Re: saying kaddish together (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 14. Re: How much is an Omer? (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: saying kaddish together (Micha Berger)
• 16. Re: Women and kaddish (Micha Berger)
• 17. Dishwashers (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)

MB said" Very few tastes can be identified below that level"

RRP, responded "All kinds of tastes and textures can be detected below that
level. What
may be true is that unintentional additions rarely do harm. I would bet
that intentional ones aderabba often would/could be detected!"

MB asks politely, Really? Can you name a non kosher ingredient that can be
POSITIVELY IDENTIFIED when less than 1/60th of a mixture? I've never tried
it, but I'm guessing even bacon juice in a glass of milk is nulified. In
fact that does seem to be the position of the Nodeh B'Yehudah.

RRW said
"This 1/60 ratio as posted earlier has been used as a mindless slogan
by those who aren't posqim."

MB responded, politely,
" Mindless? Well, at least I'm in some good company."

And RRW, replying to this question
"> The ingredient was added deliberately, but by a non-Jew, so does it
> count as L'chatchila or B'diavad?"

RRW, said

  "If added FOR A JEW it is not bateil ever.
See
   SA YD 99:5-6
   Esp. Shach 11
   GRA 9
   Taz 10
   Hidushei R Aqiva Eiger"

MB, politely, says," Well the goal posts suddenly got moved.
We were discussing, I thought, already manufactured products that contained
intentional bittul. As these were made by gentiles for gentile markets, then
this question shouldn't arise.
But if such a mixture was made by a Jew for a Jew, I agree it's not
permitted, for the Jew it was intended, but it can be consumed by or even
sold to another Jew.
The example that I use for demonstration purposes only, is salmon paste.
Ingredients salmon, vegetable oil, salt and pepper. I decide, for fun , to
add 1% shrimp to the mixture.
The shrimp is battel both in taste( and for those that insist, in texture
and colour). I now cannot eat that myself, nor the guests that it was
intended for .
However, I can give it to my favourite Rabbi, or sell it (at the non-kosher
price) to my oh so frum next door neighbour.
See Shach 99:12 and YD:99:5, and I think Taz 99:10 permits my guests to eat
it, if they don't know I deliberately treifed it up.

Bon appetit.

-- 
Martin Brody
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Martin Brody
> Can you name a non kosher ingredient that can be POSITIVELY IDENTIFIED
> when less than 1/60th of a mixture?

I don't know off hand.
I DO know I can taste one drop of oil of oregano in 2 liters or water

Also certain ingredients add texture. Try adding a tsp of butter to
2 liters of boiling water - say for pasta. Now imagine it was lard.

If a company adds it purposefully I would assume it serves a purpose.

AFAIK YD discusses accidentals and incidentals not intentionals.

I guess there can be ways to be "naval birshus hattorah" and beat the
system somehow. Atu birshi'i askinan?

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Micha Berger wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 05:08:37PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
> : Since when are 9 listeners, or any listeners at all, required for kaddish?
> : AFAIK they are only required for chazarat hashatz.
> 
> ... and for a davar shebiqdushah -- including Qaddish, Barekhu,
> Qedushah, Barukh Sheim recited out loud YK night, etc...

Where is this found?

> I don't think
> you would need 9 *listeners* if the people saying Qaddish were doing
> it togather. But if each person saying Qaddish is going his own pace,
> getting his own answerers, wouldn't each need 9 others?

Why?  Why would he need any answerers at all?

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

I asked:
> Why was this information included in Torah Sheb'ksav? Isn't
> this exactly the sort of thing which is usually relegated to
> Torah Sheb'al Peh?

R' Micha Berger answered:
> I think the point is to allow derashos between the mahn and
> challah and/or qorban minchah, for which the shiur is an eiphah.

Are you saying that if the definition of an omer appeared only in Torah
Sheb'al Peh (and not in Torah Sheb'ksav) then those drashos could not have
been made? That if the connection between omer and eiphah was merely common
knowledge (rather than explicit in the Torah) we would be unable to make
any inferences between mahn and challah?

I know that there are rules for when we can and cannot make drashos, but I
didn't think that they would go this far. If I'm wrong, I can accept that,
but it would still be very surprising to me.

Akiva Miller

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R' Akiva Miller asked:

> b) Are there any other examples of where the Torah goes out of its way to define a word?

In Shmos 30:13 we have "a half-Shekel-Kodesh which is 20 Geiro":

??? ????????, ????-??????? ???-???????????--???????? ?????????,
????????? ?????????:  ????????? ??????, ?????????--???????? ?????????,
????????? ???????.

- Danny

> From: rabbirichwol...@gmail.com
>
> R Eli Turkel:
>> I know of many poskim including RMF that insist that everyone should
>> say the kaddish in unison and the same nusach. Does anyone know of
>> any teshuvot that lechatchila allow a variety of nuschahim to be said
>> for kaddish?
>
> Here would be my order of preference
>
> 1 Only 1 individual saya kaddish at a time in the shul nusach only -
> acting as sh'liach tzibbur original format.
>
> Note: if necessary, say an extra mizmor to give each individual at least
> ONE kaddish per hiyyuv. [Shelo k'da'as haGRA]
That could be time consuming and problematic in our mobile society.  I am
in eveilus and travel a considerable amount.  I have  been to numerous
shuls.    I make sure to avoid Yekke shuls, where visitor frequently can
not say a Kaddish.

>
> 2A Unison in shul nusach as per the current minhag - a compromise to
> make shalom

One shul in Dallas had everyone (except for the Shaliach Tzibur) stand at
the shulchan used for Krias Hatorah, to say Kaddish.    Things were very
orderly.

>
> 2B Only 1 individual say kaddish at a time but in his own nusach only
> acting as sh'liach tzibbur - in a tzibbur that tolerates different
> nusachos
>
> ...
>
> 99
> Allow everyone to say kaddish in their own nusach [I would also demand
> 9 listeners per reciter] "...and to wait for the longest version."
> If 9 listeners per, I could dispense with this last clause completely.
>

Our shul allows people to use their own Nussach.  We are a Nussach Askenaz
shul but have many Iranians who are Particular about using their own
nussach.   (When serving as shalicah Tzibur, except for Kaddish Yasom,
they must use their own Nussach.


One other questions about nusach.   I always though when davening in any
shul one should say Kedushah with the Nusach of the shul.  I notice that
Lubavitcher will uniformly say Nakdishach.... very loud rather than
Nekadesh in an Nusach Askenaz shul.  Does any one know the basis for that.

On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 12:38:21PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
> Several people in my shul (including myself) are having an argument
> with our rabbi.  Our rabbi is pushing allowing everyone to say
> kaddish in their own nusach and to wait for the longest version. The
> rest of us insist that everyone should at least be encouraged to use
> the nusach of the shul (sefard-chassidic) though it should not lead
> to fights.
> 
> I know of many poskim including RMF that insist that everyone should
> say the kaddish in unison and the same nusach. Does anyone know of
> any teshuvot that lechatchila allow a variety of nuschahim to be
> said for kaddish?

I think you might start from Yalkut Yosef Siman 55, Halacha 20 who
says that Sepharadim should say nusach edot hamizrach, even in an
Ashkenazi shul, even along with others who may be saying nusach
Ashkenaz. (They may shorten Yehe Shlama Raba to stay synchronized, but
may not omit v'yatzmach purkahne v'kareiv mishechei. Presumably such
an arrangement would allow them to stay perfectly synchronized with a
Nusach Sephard minyan.) The footnotes there (which I don't have access
to right now) should provide support for this position, and suggest
other sources of interest on this question.

--Ken

-- 
Chanoch (Ken) Bloom. PhD candidate. Linguistic Cognition Laboratory.
Department of Computer Science. Illinois Institute of Technology.
http://www.iit.edu/~kbloom1/

Rav Ovadia has paskened that women can say kaddish for their parents if there are no sons to say it, however they shouldn't say it in a beit knesset.

http://halachayomit.co.il/Default.asp?HalachaID=1302

Ben
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Hi,

I just stumbled across a video report suggesting that Mu'ammar
Al-Qadhafi may be Jewish. This reminds me of a prohpecy we should all
be familiar with, but which we probably never have the time to read
calmly, as it is part of a haftarah (Hashamayim Kis'i, of Shabbat Rosh
'Hodesh), and we all know we may that when the stomach grumbles,
having had to invest extra time singing Hallel and hopefully
remembering to also sing the beautiful Ofan Lekha Eilim Alfei Alafim
..., and after maftir, there is hardly any time left to think about
the haftarah.

But, Yesha'yahu prophecies there about something remarkable there,
that le'atid lavo, G"d will take Kohanim and Leviim from among the
nations. How could that be? After all, one cannot convert into a
Kohen. (echoes of the joke about someone pestering the rabbi and
trying to bribe him, to become a Kohen, eventually admitting his
motive: because my father, grandfather and great-grandfather were all
Kohanim, so I want to be one, too.)

I blogged about this, providing two solutions and illustrating the
more fantastic solution with a ma'aseh shehayah (and included the
above mentioned video report) here:

http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/

Your comments are welcome, either here or there.
-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Videovortrag: Tehillim als Gebet
* CNN: Only Israel Has A Fully Functioning Field Hospital In Haiti
* Das innige Gebet einer Frau
* Internet Halakha: Should we Expect Privacy?
* Newsflash: King David had Literate Servants

There are many examples. Just last week I went to a shiyur which dealt with
this subject. To sum up: We normally think of parshanut as something done
outside of the Tanach. We read the Chumash, Neviim, etc and learn the
Midrash, Rashi, other commentators. However the Tanach has internal
parshanut as well. The clearest example is Divrei Hayamim, which expands,
explains stories given in other books. This type of parshanut is "long
distance" parshanut. There is another type of parshanut called "parshanut
panim" where the Torah or Nach gives an immediate explanation of a word.

I have a sheet here with 18 examples. I will give a couple.

Breishit 14: 2: waged war against Bera king of Sodom, Birsha king of
Gomorrah, Shinav king of Admah, Shemever king of Tzevoyim, and the king of
Bela (now Tzoar). The Torah explains that the word Bela is Tzoar.
Presumeably that when the Torah was written, no one would know where or what
was Bela and it gave the contemporary name.

Shoftim 15:8 And he smote them hip and thigh with a great slaughter; and he
went down and dwelt in the cleft of the rock of Etam. The phrase hip and
thigh is explained to mean - great slaughter.

Ben
----- Original Message ----- 

> R' Akiva Miller asked:
>
> > b) Are there any other examples of where the Torah goes out of its way
to define a word?

RAM asked:
> b) Are there any other examples of where the Torah
> goes out of its way to define a word? We have lots
> of places where the Torah explains why a person
> was given a certain name, but that's not quite the
> same thing.

Yes, there are, but we tend to miss those instances. A small example,
courtesy of R'Dr. Sol Cohen, of Philadelphia:
Bereishit 26:12: "And Isaac sowed in that land, and found in the same
year a hundredfold; and the LORD blessed him (vayevorakheihu)."

Vos heisst vayevorakheihu? See the next verse: "And the man waxed
great, and grew more and more until he became very great."

To truly appreciate this, you should see how mefarshim deal with the
difficulty of defining the verb barekh. Our esteemed list owner has
written on this, and many others have. There is a fundamental problem:
we use the verb to bless another human being, which means, we express
the wish that G"d, in the conversation as third party, will do
something good unto our fellow we are blessing. However, we apply to
verb to bless G"d. The Kad haKemakh and many others grapple with this,
and suggest that to bless G"d means to recognize that G"d is the
source of blessing, while to bless a fellow human is to pray that he
be the beneficiary of this abundant blessing.

All fine and dandy, but how do you connect the two concepts "to
recognize that [G"d] is the source of blessing" and "to bestow the
blessing unto another" in one word, levarekh? To which R' Sol Cohen,
basing himself partly on his phenomenal knowledge of ancient Near
Eastern languages, says that the Torah provides us the solution, by
defining berekh, in the verses above. To bless means to increase, to
make swell up. As applied to man, it means "And the man waxed great,
and grew more and more until he became very great." As applied to G"d
it means exactly what R' Chayim Volozhiner says (which RMB loves to
quote in this regard), namely, that we bring down Divine shefa' to the
world. That is the consequence of aromimmekha, rommemu E-l, etc.,
which is, through enhancing G"d's reputation among mankind, by
bringing about that more humans recognize G"d's greatness, He will
bring His blessing on us.

Both of them connote increasing, and so, in the above scriptural
quote, the Torah repeated itself, and thus defined a term.

There are many more examples, but since every one takes a few
paragraphs to explain, I shall rest my case now.

This, by the way, is a phenomenon closely related to the occurrence of
doublets in the poetic passages, such as haazinu hashamayim vaadabera
- vetishma' haaretz imrei fi. Or HaShem shimkha le'olam - HaShem
zikhrekha ledor vador. (which is really also a case of *defining*
zekher, but I won't develop that here, leaving the TC who explained
this to me the chance to publish this).

Oh, knowledge of Ancient Near Eastern languages (which I generally
lack, except for Aramaic) greatly increases the likelihood we will see
this phenomenon. Rashi referred to Arabic (hanoten lasekhvi vina) and
Aramaic (all over the place) to understand Hebrew, R'Akiva used
comparative linguistics, as did many other before and after them, so
this is a solid Jewish way of doing things.
-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Videovortrag: Tehillim als Gebet
* CNN: Only Israel Has A Fully Functioning Field Hospital In Haiti
* Das innige Gebet einer Frau
* Internet Halakha: Should we Expect Privacy?
* Newsflash: King David had Literate Servants

ben1...@zahav.net.il
> We read the Chumash, Neviim, etc and learn the
> Midrash, Rashi, other commentators. However the Tanach has internal
> parshanut as well.

And internal harchakos as well

EG Giulei Akum were unkosher -even those that were a safeiq eino ben
yomo! [This Supports Rashba that s'feiq d'oraisso l'humra mid'oraisso]

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Harry Weiss:
> I make sure to avoid Yekke shuls, where visitor frequently can not
> say a Kaddish.

My shul generally had one at a time but we went back and forth

Here are "Taqqanos" I made over the years to accomodate aveilim:

1 although the minhag was not to aleinu between minchah erev shabbos
and qabbalos shabbos, when a Friday Jahrzeit came, I added aleinu

2 when we said one @ a time and we had many aveilim EG @ shacharis,
we kept adding a mizmor to make sure everyone got a qaddish

3 later - when confronted with a large group of aveilim - I allowed
group Qaddish and I appointed a "gabbai" to lead the group. All went
up to either side of the Shatz as is the German minhag and said qaddish
in unison.

4 once a real latecomer came in and we added a mizmor for him

---------------------


about 200 years ago] shomeia k'oneh works and probably best for the
hiyyuv who is not saying to listen with kavvanah to be yotzei

And even Yekke shuls that had only 1 zugger allowed other aveilim to
recite along quietly - although as I have already pointed out [perhaps
offline] this presents other problems of saying w/o responders.

I am preparing a post with mareh m'qomos BEH

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Mon, Feb 01, 2010 at 04:28:08AM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
: > I think the point is to allow derashos between the mahn and
: > challah and/or qorban minchah, for which the shiur is an eiphah.

: Are you saying that if the definition of an omer appeared only in
: Torah Sheb'al Peh (and not in Torah Sheb'ksav) then those drashos could
: not have been made? ...

Not me, the Gur Aryeih. Otherwise, I would have bowed to those who note
that such term + definition is normal lashon miqra.

I meant derashah in the technical sense. As in darshening dinim from
extra words, and making a gezeirah shavah on the use of a common term.
The 7, 13, 19, or 32 middos shehatorah nidreshes bahem. (The last number
is R' Eliezer ben R' Yosi haGelili's.)

Gezeiros shavos are sometimes made because the meaning is identical --
eg vayeitzei hashemesh : uba hashemesh. But they are much weaker than
if the same word is found in both.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When a king dies, his power ends,
mi...@aishdas.org        but when a prophet dies, his influence is just
http://www.aishdas.org   beginning.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                    - Soren Kierkegaard

On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 07:34:29PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
: Micha Berger wrote:
: >On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 05:08:37PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
: >: Since when are 9 listeners, or any listeners at all, required for 
: >kaddish?
: >: AFAIK they are only required for chazarat hashatz.

: >... and for a davar shebiqdushah -- including Qaddish, Barekhu,
: >Qedushah, Barukh Sheim recited out loud YK night, etc...

: Where is this found?

Megillah 23b

Tur, OCh 55 lists devarim shebiqdushah. I added Shema on YK night because
it too is an out lout "barukh sheim kevod malkhuso..."

Berakhos 47b-48a lists who can be counted

My thesis, that women aren't counted because they lack the same chiyuv,
is in
    Mei'ri Megillah 51
R' Yaaqov Emdan (Migdal Oz (even bochein 1:69) uses this to distinguish
dying al qiddush H', for which women are counted.
The sources are pretty numerous... RAFrimmer does a better job
doscumenting this opinion in
http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/english/tfila/frimer2-1.htm
sec: "B. The First School."
The second and third schools are FAR smaller.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is our choices...that show what we truly are,
mi...@aishdas.org        far more than our abilities.
http://www.aishdas.org                           - J. K. Rowling
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Mon, Feb 01, 2010 at 02:03:42PM +0200, Ben Waxman wrote:
: Rav Ovadia has paskened that women can say kaddish for their parents if there are no sons to say it, however they shouldn't say it in a beit knesset.
: http://halachayomit.co.il/Default.asp?HalachaID=1302

The question I would have in light of the current thread is whether he
would require 10 men listening. Or, since she isn't a mechuyeves, she
could count women. Is he considering this qaddish a davar shebiqdushah?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

[Redux]

See SA YD 93:1
95:3,4

R Martin L. Brody:
> I'm sorry, but as long as there is soap it seems to be ok L'chatchilla
> according to the SA. R.OY in Yabia Omer 1:10

1 L'chatchila?
2 Simulataneously or zeh achar zeh?

> SA YD 95:3-4
> Discusses simultaneously [except as Rema suggests that zeh achar zeh
> is OK ONLY b'diavad.

SA in 95:4 allows eifer [soaped up] dishes ONLY b'diaavad when done
simulataneously. IOW
Water with already added eiferand then both dairy and meat dishes added
together the dishes are muttar post facto. The SA does NOT pasqen that
one may set this up l'chathcilah!

Note:
SA YD 93:1 prohhibits using a keili for both dairy and meat [even zeh
achar zeh]

----------------------


OK for s'phardim ben yomo
and as per Rema l'chathcila when eino ben yomo.

I see no l'chatchilah heter at all from M'chabeir or Rema for using a
single Yorah for both Dairy and Meat.

AFAIK IIRC RMF requires

1 Separate racks and
2 an empty run in between
in order to use a dishwasher l'chathcila for both dairy and meat.

[Email #2. -micha]

Some questions to ponder:
1 When water shoots out of the sprayer, does the soap mix in before it
hits the dishes or after?
Note: different dishwashers might behave differently

2 Does anyone l'chatchila allow cooking of meat and milk in a kli sheini,
even if we accept that b'di'avad no damage was done?

3 Can anyone cite a modern poseiq that permits lechat'chila to mix ta'am
pagum such as pagum meat with pagum dairy?

4 Is there any major source after SA that constures eino ben yomo as a
heter on mamashus - as opposed to on b'lia?

5. What are the restrictions re: hag'ala when koshering dairy and
meat dishes?
[Hint SA 452:2] 

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile


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