Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 9

Wed, 06 Jan 2010

• 1. Re: electricity on shabbat (Ben Waxman)
• 2. Re: electricity on shabbat (Micha Berger)
• 3. electricity on shabbat (Eli Turkel)
• 4. sparks on shabbat (Eli Turkel)
• 5. Re: The Scope of the "7 Mitzvos d'Rabbanan" (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)
• 6. Qaddish: Tying it all Together (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 7. Re: Why are beards considers so choshuv? (Micha Berger)
• 8. Fw: electricity on shabbat (Ben Waxman)
• 9. Re: Fw: electricity on shabbat (Micha Berger)
• 10. Two idle questions (David Riceman)
• 11. Re: Why are beards considers so choshuv? (Zev Sero)
• 12. Re: Two idle questions (Rich, Joel)
• 13. Re: Two idle questions (Zev Sero)
• 14. Re: Why are beards considers so choshuv? (Harry Maryles)
• 15. Re: Two idle questions (David Riceman)
• 16. Tzedaqah Before T'filah (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 17. Seeing Policies Everywhere (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)

I thought that to be a psik reisha, first of all it has to be 100% (100% of 
all chickens who have their head cut off will die) and the melacha performed 
has to be a direct result of the action.

Ben
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org>
>
> I suggest takig the casing off a light switch and seeing ho often there
> is a spark right before it closes. I would guess it's above 90%.
\ 

On Wed, Jan 06, 2010 at 03:09:52PM +0200, Ben Waxman wrote:
: I thought that to be a psik reisha, first of all it has to be 100% (100% of 
: all chickens who have their head cut off will die) and the melacha 
: performed has to be a direct result of the action.

I doubt it has to be exactly 100%. E.g. I don't think Mike the Headless
Chicken (who lived for four years in the 1940s on the reflexes provided
by his spinal chord) disproves the textbook case of pesiq reishei.

Nearly always is close enough. And I believe that a 110v wall switch
sparks in that range. If the switch is overloaded, they'll get away from
the small area designed for them, and you might see the spark through the
crack around the plastic you just flipped, or you might smell ozone. In
which case, the switch needs replacing or plug in that high wattage
device elsewhere -- venishmartem me'od lenfashoseikhem.

But the speaking on the small but still visible scale is normal. Only
poses a threat if ch"v there is a gas leak.

RNSlifkin invokes poor Mike to explain about the Stincus marinus, which
had scales but no fins, despite the gemara saying that every fish with
scales had fins, and you didn't really need to check both simanim:
    Rabbi Yonasan Eybeschitz and Rabbi Yaakov Tzvi Mecklenburg (in HaKesav
    VeHaKabbalah), however, proposed a simple explanation. ... This is
    the explanation that Rabbi Eybeschutz gives...: "It seems that this
    is with the majority of fish. For with everything -- and especially
    with the nature of creatures -- it always follows the majority. With
    all creatures there are many things that are exceptions from the
    usual nature, as the naturalists have attested regarding the nature
    of animals. But the Torah and mitzvos all implement the principle
    of following the majority, and the majority of those that possess
    a scale, have a fin."

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The fittingness of your matzos [for the seder]
mi...@aishdas.org        isn't complete with being careful in the laws
http://www.aishdas.org   of Passover. One must also be very careful in
Fax: (270) 514-1507      the laws of business.    - Rav Yisrael Salanter

For more detailed piskei halacha concerning using electrical
appliances on shabbat see
http://www.megavolt.co.il/halacha.html

-- 
Eli Turkel

from
http://koltorah.org/halachah/prohibition-turnin
g-incandescent-bulb-shabbat-and-yom-tov-part-2-2

Approach #4 ? Sparks
Both Rav David Zvi Hoffman and the Chazon Ish note that it is
prohibited to complete circuits due to the sparks that are created
when one completes a circuit. They argue that the sparks generated
when completing an electric circuit fall into the rabbinic prohibition
to create sparks from wood or stones (Mishnah Beitzah 4:7).
Rav Shlomo Zalman (Teshuvot Minchat Shlomo 1: pp. 86-87) strongly
questions this assumption. He notes that not only does one not intend
to create these sparks, but also one does not want them at all since
they wear out the points of contact in a circuit. He also argues that
this is considered an unusual manner (KeLeAchar Yad) to create sparks
since one never completes a circuit with the intention of creating
sparks. Accordingly, Rav Auerbach argues that there should be no
Halachic problem associated with the creation of such sparks.
He draws an analogy to a ruling of the Dagul MeiRevavah (O.C. 340:3)
where he permits cutting a cake with letters written on it. This
permission is based on the combination of the fact that erasing when
not done for the purpose of writing is only a rabbinic prohibition, he
has no intention of erasing the letters, it is a destructive act
(Mekalkeil), and this is a KeLeAchar Yad manner of erasing.
Accordingly, since the creation of sparks in general is only a
rabbinic prohibition, and one does not intend to create sparks when
completing an electric circuit, it is an unusual manner to create
sparks, and it damages the circuit, the creation of sparks when
completing an electric circuit does not constitute a prohibited act on
Shabbat.
We should note, however, that Rama (ad. loc.) does prohibit breaking a
cake with letters on it. Although the Shaarei Teshuvah (340:1) fully
accepts the ruling of the Dagul MeiRevavah and the Aruch HaShulchan
(O.C. 340:23) essentially supports it, the Mishnah Berurah (340:16)
does not fully accept this lenient ruling. Indeed, common practice is
to avoid cutting the letters on a cake on Shabbat in harmony with the
ruling of Rama.
On the other hand, the fact that Halachah attaches no significance to
something that is not visible to the "naked eye" (see Aruch HaShulchan
Yoreh Deah 84:36 and Teshuvot Igrot Moshe Y.D. 3:120:5) is another
consideration to discount these sparks. The Encyclopedia Talmudit
(18:734) states that turning on appliances that operate on a
relatively low voltage does not make visible sparks. Moreover, the
production of sparks depends to a great extent on humidity. Thus,
since it is not inevitable (Pesik Reisha) that these sparks will be
produced, it remains an unintended action (Davar ShEino Mitkavein),
which is permitted on Shabbat.

-- 
Eli Turkel

RDE: 
> The Ramban has similar concerns about the significance of saying there
> are 613 mitzvos. He discusses it a length in his comments to Shoresh I
> of the Rambam's Sefer HaMitzvos

FWIW the Sefer "Yad Halevi" by a Rav who was in Hartford -- has a short
essay on shoresh aleph along these lines, too

[Quick personal story 
Tuviah in Monsey republished this -- and when he found out I was from
Hartford he gifted me a copy]

Quick Rant: 
    I think we should all learn these s'farim b'iyyun rav 

    BUT when it comes to aplying them to Halachah -- or even Hashqafa --
    take them with a grain of salt, and apply them with the 5th Heleq
    of SA viz. Seichel. Or consult your LOR to see whether we need to
    apply a given passage strictly or liberally.
End of rant 

KT 
RRW 
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

This post evolved derived from material discussed on Avodah

Please note: The premise here is that some drashos deviate from the
strict literal text [in this case "ShMeh"] due to Oral Taditions that
suggest just such an emendation.


NishmaBlog: Qaddish: Tying it all Together
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/2009/12/qaddish-tying-it-all-together.
html

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Wed, Jan 06, 2010 at 01:44:06AM -0500, T6...@aol.com wrote:
: 4.  Why  do men care if their beard grows in spotty, fuzzy or  sparse? -- 
: that is because, as members of the human race, they are subject to  the trait 
: of vanity.  Men want to be handsome! ...

Perhaps not from vanity, but because they want to look "put together"
at the workplace. Or even for talmidim.

In Litta, a beard on a talmid would have been yuhara. For that matter,
in many yeshivos today as well. (Although wearing black and white was
also part of that yuhara concept -- only the RY did that -- and yet
today it's commonplace in most of those self-same yeshivos.)

Which would appear to show that there is value assigned to having a
beard, not that there is a negative value assigned to wanting to shave.

BTW, I thought the whole thing was meramez in "vehadarta penei zaqein",
that there is a conceptual link between the zaqein (beard) and zaqein
(older man; not to be confused with someone who merely aged, "yashein").

And then there's significance to "zeqan Aharon" (Tehillim 133:2).

Certanly by the time Hineni he'ani mima'as was written, having a beard
was a significant sign.

That said, HQBH decided not to allow me to have much of one. (Not that
it would have been all that full before the radiation...) To both look
older than my sons and yet not messy, I have a van dyke. (As did RAEK
and many other western rabbis from the era when they were in style.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "The worst thing that can happen to a
mi...@aishdas.org        person is to remain asleep and untamed."
http://www.aishdas.org          - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm
Fax: (270) 514-1507

The quibble I have on your quibble is that you are talking about a situation 
where the object doesn't work. I am talking about a situation where it does 
and yet it still fails to spark, because that is the nature of the 
instrument. Sometimes, most times, the vast majority of the time, it sparks. 
But is that sparking an intrinsic part of the process?

Ben
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <rabbirichwol...@gmail.com>


>
> Post if u wish
> Ben:
> ?I thought that to be a psik reisha, first of all it has to be 100% (100% 
> of
> all chickens who have their head cut off will die) and the melacha 
> performed
> has to be a direct result of the action.
>
> Ben?
>
> Quibble
> Given that 1/1000 times a light bulb is burned out - so
> Is turning on a light bulb via a switch still a P"siq reisheh?
>
> Same for car battery. It MIGHT be dead once every 5 years.
>
> To me the word "inevitable" is better than "100%".  Because halachah would 
> [almost always] treat the virtually inevitable as absolutely inevitable.
>
> KT
> RRW
> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile 

On Wed, Jan 06, 2010 at 08:33:15PM +0200, Ben Waxman wrote:
: The quibble I have on your quibble is that you are talking about a 
: situation where the object doesn't work. I am talking about a situation 
: where it does and yet it still fails to spark, because that is the nature 
: of the instrument. Sometimes, most times, the vast majority of the time, it 
: sparks. But is that sparking an intrinsic part of the process?

Nu, pesiq reishei delo nicha lei. Doesn't help much.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

1.  A friend asked me if there's a Biblical source for "anus rahmana 
patrei".  I mentioned the Rambam's explanation (in H. Tshuva 5:4), but 
he would prefer a deduction from a pasuk.

2.  What happens when "hefker beis din hefker" contradicts "dina 
d'malchusa dina" (see the comments about property in the Fifth amendment 
to the constitution)?

David Riceman

T6...@aol.com wrote:
  
> 3.  Shaving off the beard is considered a denial and denigration of 
> one's masculinity -- it is a sort of "feminizing" thing to do, making 
> one's face look more womanly and less manly, so that's one reason it's 
> frowned upon in certain frum circles.

And in fact the Tzemach Tzedek holds that this is an actual issur, in
*addition* to the issur of shaving with a razor.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

2.  What happens when "hefker beis din hefker" contradicts "dina d'malchusa dina" (see the comments about property in the Fifth amendment to the constitution)?

David Riceman
_______________________________________________
Depends on how you understand the power of hefker beit din hefker. According to some it flows from the melech in the same way dina dmalchuta does.
KT
Joel Rich

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David Riceman wrote:
> 1.  A friend asked me if there's a Biblical source for "anus rahmana 
> patrei".  I mentioned the Rambam's explanation (in H. Tshuva 5:4), but 
> he would prefer a deduction from a pasuk.

Devarim 22:26-27


> 2.  What happens when "hefker beis din hefker" contradicts "dina 
> d'malchusa dina" (see the comments about property in the Fifth amendment 
> to the constitution)?

If you're talking about the malchusa itself acting as a "beis din", then
obviously it can't act against its own constitution; any such purported
action is void, and legally never happened.  Remember, it's "dina
demalchusa", not "dina demalka"; the king can't just make up his own laws.

If you're talking about a law that constrains a beis din, I'm not sure
that the Torah recognises any such power on the part of the malchus.
It would seem that any interference on the part of the law in the normal
functioning of a beis din must be resisted because of "lo soguru".


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

--- On Wed, 1/6/10, T6...@aol.com <T6...@aol.com> wrote:




>>>>>
?
1.??? ...The white beard is a sign of age and in general, in the Torah
world the elderly are given more respect than the young, because they are
presumed to be more knowledgeable and wiser.? "Zekenim" is virtually a
synonym for "the wise and learned."? "Zaken = zeh shekanah chachma."
?
2.? Since there is an issur of shaving with a razor, not shaving at all is
a sort of hiddur mitzva.? There is also an issur of not cutting off the
corners of your beard, i.e., the payos, and once again, leaving the whole
face unshaved is?a sort of hiddur mitzva.
?
3.? Shaving off the beard is considered a denial and denigration of one's
masculinity -- it is a sort of "feminizing" thing to do, making one's face
look more womanly and less manly, so that's one reason?it's frowned upon in
certain frum?circles.? The beard is /both/ a sign that one is adult and no
longer a child, and /also/ that one is male and not female.? Obviously in
Litvishe circles where all the bachurim go beardless, they are not
concerned that being beardless is "effeminate."? But even in those circles,
men are strongly encouraged to grow their beards after marriage, when they
need to appear more adult and less juvenile.? (And maybe they also need to
be more masculine in their role as husband and father?? Just speculating.)
?
4.? Why? do men care if their beard grows in spotty, fuzzy or sparse? --
that is because, as members of the human race, they are subject to the
trait of vanity.? Men want to be handsome!? For a similar reason -- because
they care how they look, even at age 80 ...This now brings us back to the
"effeminate" side of eliminating one's beard, showing that the removal of
facial hair is a feminine thing to do.
------------------------------------
?
These are some of my thoughts.
?
I don't think it has anything to do with vanity, masculinity, or
feminization. Shaving is not vanity.? For me it is merely one form of good
grooming - kind of like brushing one's teeth.
?
As you point out Shaving is not Assur. Razors are Assur. If course Chsadim
will give you an argument about that and say thaat shaving is Assur. But
clearly the Yeshiva world does not agree since many if not most Yeshiva
Bachurim shave. 
?
I don't have a beard because I simply cannot stand not being able to touch
my face. The two times that I had to grow a Shloshim beard, I hated it. I
shave during Sefira and the 3 weeks based on a Heter from my Rebbe.
?
As you said, beards are considered a sign of wisdom and maturity. This is
not only true in our culture. It is true in many other cultures, not the
least of which is academia. Trim beards are almost de rigueur for the more
wise and professorial look these days. These cultures too feel beards imply
age which brings wisdom. Often perception trumps reality. If one has a
beard he will be deemed wiser than?someone who doesn't - all else being
equal.
?
The word Zaken can be used to mean beard or elder. An elder is one who has
gained wisdom via his many years of life experience ?A clean shaven face
implies youth and thereby immaturity. Youth does not have a high value in
Judaism. There is even a Gemarah which tells us that it is Torah is much
better understood when learned at an older age. I can certainly understand
that. the older one is the more information he brings to bear on any
subject learned and that interacts with the new information learned to give
one a better understanding of the material.
?HM

Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 

Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/



?


      
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Me:
> 2.  What happens when "hefker beis din hefker" contradicts "dina
> d'malchusa dina" (see the comments about property in the Fifth
> amendment to the constitution)?
RJR:
> Depends on how you understand the power of hefker beit din hefker. According to some it flows from the melech in the same way dina dmalchuta does
Does that imply that those halachos which depend on HBDH don't apply in 
the US?

David Riceman

See: 
    SA Orach Hayyim 92:10
    MB SQ 36
    SHhTZ 31

Question: how come most qehilos routinely collect tzedaqah during
hazaras hasha"tz?

Several Issues
    1 it's after Tefilas 18
    2 It potentially is m'vateil hearing hazaras hasha"tz
    3 Al pi qabbalah it should be given at "v'ho'osher" ...

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Concerning what appears to be a "policy" issur re: a halaf on YT and
concenrs over sharpening it.

See SA Orach Hayyim 498:1

Mechabeir is pasqening according to Beitzah 28
[Be'er Hagolah, 1,2]

And Rema adds or extends: V'achshav bizman hazeh - must be bodeq his
own Sakkin on Erev Y"T

The case of Talmud-Sa is framed as a g'zeira shema tihyeh P'guma -
ultimately leading to a ch'shash of sharpening..

The Rema's cheshash is similar-identical shema yashchizena

And the m'tzi'us of the circumstances has morphed
FROM: showing a sakkin to a chacham on Y"T
TO: inspecting one's own sakkin - which afaik is not encompassed by the
Talmud's g'zeira.

Analysis:
Is this an extension or making up a new g'zeira?

Svaros:
Extension - because the ch'shash is virtually identical
New - because the heicha timtza is different?

-----------------------


as a musical instrument on Shabbos [and YT]

BUT im timtzei lomar that a mike is merely a heicha timtza of a musical
instrument [which as been suggested offline]
Then what-about bicycles?

Is this new because obviously a bike is not a mike nor a musical
instrument?
OR
Because after all the ch'shash is shema yetaqein maneh - which is the
very same ch'shash - therefore it would parallel this Rema!?

Either way we have some sharp questions! ;-)

[Also see MB 7,8 and Beiur Halachah D"H v'achshav]

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile


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