Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 233

Wed, 18 Nov 2009

• 1. Re: halachic attitude to the convicted (Daniel Israel)
• 2. Lessons From Jacob and Esau (Yitzchok Levine)
• 3. Chesed V'Emes (Yitzchok Levine)
• 4. Re: yishmael v. the mitzri??? (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: halachic attitude to the convicted (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: halachic attitude to the convicted (Ben Waxman)
• 7. halachic attitude to the convicted (Eli Turkel)
• 8. Re: Bereshit 23: 6-16 (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 9. Re: yishmael v. the mitzri??? (David Riceman)
• 10. Re: Was Esav a Rasha in the womb? (David Riceman)
• 11. halachic attitude to the convicted (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 12. Re: Bereshit 23: 6-16 (Simon Montagu)
• 13. Admin: Hebrew on Avodah (Arie Folger)
• 14. Re: halachic attitude to the convicted (Saul Guberman)
• 15. Re: Was Esav a Rasha in the womb? (Simon Montagu)
• 16. Re: Was Esav a Rasha in the womb? (Micha Berger)
• 17. Re: Was Esav a Rasha in the womb? (Micha Berger)
• 18. Re: Bereshit 23: 6-16 (Micha Berger)
• 19. Re: yishmael v. the mitzri??? (Micha Berger)
• 20. Re: halachic attitude to the convicted (Daniel Eidensohn)

Quoting Samuel Svarc <ssv...@gmail.com>:
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 11:35 AM,  <Saul.Z.New...@kp.org> wrote:
>> should the general rule be that if someone , is jailed , for whatever
>> reason,  we should  be praying  for  his release?
>> is there any crime where that is NOT  true?
>
> Sure. Any person that halacha feels should be imprisoned.

Do you mean where he is actually sentenced k'halacha (i.e., by beit  
din), or where the facts, were they to be heard by a beit din would  
warrant his imprisonment?

If the former, given that there is no such beit din that is authorized  
to sentence people today, then this will never occur.

If the latter, so who gets to decide that the court's sentence was  
okay k'halacha?

And are you allowing for the possibility that a particular crime might  
not be subject to imprisonment by beit din (after all, imprisonment is  
not a penalty in the Torah), but the halacha would be maskim to the  
malchus imprisoning the person?

I tried to raise this issue several month ago, and IMO no one really  
was willing to speak to the ikar issue.

-- 
Daniel M. Israel
d...@cornell.edu

Toldos deals in part, of course, with the birth 
and upbringing of Yaakov and Eisav.  RSRH in his 
commentary on this parsha details errors that 
Yitzchok and Rivka made when they tried to 
educate Esav and Yaakov in the same manner, 
despite the fact that their natures. He writes 
about this at greater length in his essay 
"Lessons From Jacob and Esau" that appears on 
pages 319 - 331 of his Collected Writing VII. 
This volume deals with his thoughts on Jewish 
Education.  In part in this essay he writes

Down to our present day we have been able to 
observe the disastrous consequences of a 
one-sided approach to the unique task of being a 
Jew. Many a son of a pious talmid chacham has 
been totally lost to Judaism because his father 
insisted on training him to become a talmid 
chacham without considering whether his 
personality and inclinations truly lay in that 
direction. Thus he is exposed to Jewish life in 
only one context: that of a quiet existence of 
study and meditation for which he has neither 
talent nor desire. What attracts him instead is 
the busy, colorful life of the world outside. But 
as a result of the narrow view of life in which 
he has been trained he gets the impression that 
in order to participate in the active, variegated 
life for which he yearns, he must give up his 
mission as a Jew. He consequently abandons his 
Judaism in order to fling himself into the 
maelstrom of excitement and temptations offered by the world outside.

The story of such an individual might end quite 
differently if only, instead of forcing him into 
the mold of a talmid chacham, his father would 
raise him from the very beginning to become a man 
of the world who, at the same time, is faithful 
to his duties as a Jew; if only that father would 
teach this son that the activities of the world 
outside, too, have their place in God's plan, 
that it is possible to preserve and to 
demonstrate one's complete loyalty to Judaism 
even as a sophisticated man of the world. He 
should make his son understand that, as a matter 
of fact, many, if not perhaps the most important, 
aspects of Jewish living are intended primarily 
to be practiced amidst the conditions and 
aspirations of everyday life, in the midst of the 
world and not in isolation from it. He should 
make his son understand that the Taryag 
Mitzvos  are not meant to be observed in the 
klaus [Judeo-German equivalent for a small 
synagogue. (Ed.)] or in the beth hamidrash but 
precisely in the practical life of the farmer or 
the public-spirited citizen. If only that father 
would make it clear to his son that the spirit 
and the happiness of Judaism are just as 
accessible to a Zevulun "in the world outside" as 
they are to an Issachar "in the tents,"?who knows 
whether that son might not stand by his father's 
deathbed and gently close his father's eyes as a loyal, pious Jew?


For the rest of this most insightful essay on 
Chinuch, see 
http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/lessons_jacob_esau_col_vii.pdf


Yitzchok Levine 
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The following is from RSRH's commentary on Bereishis 24

27 And he said: Blessed be God, the God of my master Avraham, Who has 
not forsaken His lovingkindness and his truth [Chasdo v'ameto] from 
my master! I am still on the way, but God has already led me to the 
house of my master's brothers.

Chasdo v'ameto Ahava (love) is an emotion, whereas Chesed is love translated
into action. When Emes is added to Chesed, the Emes is limiting, restricting.
Chesed v'emes is an act of lovingkindness that does not impinge upon the
truth.

Human love is blind. It tends to accede to the wishes of the
beloved, without regard to the true worth of these wishes. God's love,
however, is Chesed v'emes; it grants only those wishes whose fulfillment will
be truly for the good. In the case of God's love, truth is never absent.
Ya'akov, too, asks Yosef to act toward him with Chesed v'emes: "Please
do not bury me in Mitzrayim!" (below, 47:29). Seeing to Ya'akov's
burial is an act of Chesed; complying with his specification "but do not
bury me in Egypt" is the Emes. Thus, too, Rachav asks of the spies to
show her Chesed v'emes, kindness modified by a specification (see Yehoshua
2:14). Emes is the safeguard that ensures that, when an act of
lovingkindness is performed, truth, which is the essential thing, is not
lost. 
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On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 05:42:50PM -0500, David Riceman wrote:
: >2- A child already born isn't motivation to save someone to allow his
: >birth.

: Where does "to allow his birth" come in?  The argument would be that he 
: can't deserve to die if one of his future descendants would be 
: remarkably good; some of that goodness must be due to his influence.

But that's not a merit issue?

This explanation would still be baasher hu sham.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 01:10:24AM +0200, Daniel Eidensohn wrote:
: *Steipler Rav (Within the Domain of Gedolei Torah Vol 2 page 557-560): 
: *The rav of Komemiyus, Rav Binyamin Mendelson approached Rav Shlomo 
: Lorenz concerning someone who had committed a crime in the past. Then he 

There is also a famous story about R' Chaim Brisker raising money on
Yom Kippur for the release of a Bundist from the Czar's prison. The
prisoner was caught with handouts or maybe not-yet-hung posters on his
person. R Chaim delayed Kol Nidre until the 10,000 rubles needed to get
him released was raised. The guy actually was guilty the charge, he was
a Communist. And he was an apiqoreis, halachically guilty. And yet R'
Chaim invoked pidyon shevuyim to get the entire city of Brisk "violating"
(in quotes in case it's hutrah) Yom Kippur.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The mind is a wonderful organ
mi...@aishdas.org        for justifying decisions
http://www.aishdas.org   the heart already reached.
Fax: (270) 514-1507

The people below could still pray for the guy's release, but they can't take an active role in getting him released.

Ben
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Daniel Eidensohn 

  Steipler Rav (Within the Domain of Gedolei Torah Vol 2 page 557-560): The
  rav of Komemiyus, Rav Binyamin Mendelson approached Rav Shlomo Lorenz
  concerning someone who had committed a crime in the past. 
  When Rav Lorenz told the story to the Steipler Rav, the Steipler screamed, " . . . . 
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<<When Rav Lorenz told the story to the Steipler Rav, the Steipler
screamed, "A Jew who sins and repeats that sin, it is better that he be
punished in this world and not -- G-d forbid -- in the World to Come."
He explained, "The punishment in this world is minor compared to what
happens in the World to Come. Furthermore if you succeed in stopping the
jail sentence he will continue to repeatedly commit this crime. It is
better that he receive his punishment and perhaps learn
self-restraint...In addition if I give you permission and you testify
for his benefit it is obvious that every newspaper and all the public
media will publicize the matter and it will also be a chilul HaShem when
he sins again...">>

There is a similar story with RSZA with someone accused of smuggling diamonds
in teffilin. RSZA was asked about trying to help the man stay out of jail.
He said it was the greatest chillul hashem and that the man deserved
jail and should learn not to repeat such crimes


-- 
Eli Turkel

R' Zev Sero wrote:

> Actually Chazal tell us there are three locations to which
> the nations of the world can't possibly contest our title,
> because we paid cash for them: Me'aras Hamachpela, Kever
> Yosef, and Har Habayis.  About the rest of EY the nations
> can say "listim atem", but not about these three sites.
> It's ironic, therefore, that today those are the three
> most contentious sites, that the nations most strenuously
> insist are not ours.

Not ironic at all, as I see it.

Paying cash doesn't help, if one doesn't get a receipt.

Even having a receipt doesn't help, if one fails to show that receipt to the merchant.

These sites will continue to be contentious until and unless we show them
our receipt. Specifically, we need to cite *these* *psukim* in relevant
sutations, and not make vague references to our historical connection, and
such.

Akiva Miller

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Micha Berger wrote:
> But that's not a merit issue?
>
> This explanation would still be baasher hu sham.
>   
No.  Now he's hayyav misah.  That would be an extenuating circumstance 
which would allow lenience in sentencing.  I think you need to define 
with more precision what you mean by BHS (which I will now elevate to an 
acronym).

David Riceman

Marty Bluke wrote:
> This Maharal seems to contradict a fundamental principle of Judaism
> that every person has free will and can choose to be a Tzadik or a
> Rasha. If Esav's innate nature in the womb was to worship Avoda Zara
> how can he blamed for his actions, likewise if Yaakov's innate nature
> was for kedusha why should he be rewarded for that? See the Rambam in
> Hilchos Teshuva the beginning of Perek 5 where the Rambam states
> clearly and unequivocally that there is no predisposition,  every
> person has choice what to be.
He can be blamed for not overcoming his predisposition.  See H. Deoth 
1:1 and 1:5, where the Rambam says unequivocally that everyone has 
predispositions.  In H. Tshuva 5:1 he says that those predispositions 
can be overcome.

David Riceman

WADR, the steipler's opinion  must be an extreme daas yachid,  because we 
see  the worldwide protest for  many tried or convicted  for crimes 
ranging  from  child abuse to larceny to smuggling etc . and it  seems 
that the only difference between whether it's secular states or israel is 
whether  the protestation is respectful or derisive.....


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On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 10:45 AM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
> Actually Chazal tell us there are three locations to which the nations
> of the world can't possibly contest our title, because we paid cash for
> them: Me'aras Hamachpela, Kever Yosef, and Har Habayis. ?About the rest
> of EY the nations can say "listim atem", but not about these three sites.
> It's ironic, therefore, that today those are the three most contentious
> sites, that the nations most strenuously insist are not ours.

Apparently Chazal underestimated the ingenuity of the nations: rather
than contesting our title, they contest the identification of the
sites.

RAM wrote:
> Plus, given that I don't have easy access to a Psikta deRav Kehane,
> I thank you for both translating and transliterating that quote. (The
> Hebrew was included too, but it shows up as question marks in my
> browser. If anyone knows of a browser where it shows as Hebrew, I'd
> like to know, because many posters seem to have no problem with
> Hebrew posting.)

It likely isn't your browser that turns Hebrew into question marks,
but the software that collects the individual posts into a digest.
AFAIU, those who are on burst mode do see the Hebrew.

RMB?

[That is correct. There is also a digest mode where you can get each
email as an attachment to the digest, and those emails would also be able
to handle multiple different character encodings in one digest --
solving our Hebrew problem. But if too much of a post is Hebrew,
I reject the post rather than spam the majority of readers.

[There is a version of mailman with internationalization
support that supports right-to-left languages including Hebrew in
particular. But DreamHost won't install it. We once got badly burnt on
my attempt to run my own email server, so I'm not trying again.    -micha]

-- 
Arie Folger,
Latest blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* UK Commander Challenges Goldstone Report
* On the Stereotypical Jew
* Wieso "ruhte" G"tt?
* Wir sind fr die Evolution!

RET just posted that RSZA said the same opinion as the Steipler.  There are
halachos that allow people to be turned over to/tried by the secular court
system.  Maybe there is a disconnect between the theoretical & the applied.

 I think the general reaction of protest has 2 main factors
1) Historical persecution of Jews and that mindset
2) Governments were most of the times individuals (mostly corrupt).  The
idea of government by the people is relatively new.

Saul

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 11:23, <Saul.Z.New...@kp.org> wrote:

>
> WADR, the steipler's opinion  must be an extreme daas yachid,  because we
> see  the worldwide protest for  many tried or convicted  for crimes  ranging
>  from  child abuse to larceny to smuggling etc . and it  seems that the only
> difference between whether it's secular states or israel is whether  the
> protestation is respectful or derisive.....
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing list
> Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
>
>
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On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 12:24 AM, Marty Bluke <marty.bl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Rashi comments that when Rivka passed a Beis Medrash Yaakov tried to
> get out and when she passed a house of Avoda Zara Esav tried to get
> out.
>
> That obvious question is was Esav a Rasha already in the womb? What
> choice did he have there? Did he even have a Yetzer Hara before he was
> born? How could he become a Rasha in the womb? The same goes for
> Yaakov. Chazal state that a person's yetzer tov doesn't enter them
> until the age of 13, if so, what drove Yaakov to the Beis Medrash?
>
> The Maharal gives a very perplexing and difficult answer. He says that
> Esav was not propelled by the Yetzer Hara to go to the house of Avoda
> Zara rather that was simply his nature. The same with Yaakov and the
> Beis Medrash. Esav's innate nature was drawn to tumah and Yaakov's was
> drawn to kedusha.

"Torat HaRav Aviner" today at
http://www.ravaviner.com/2009/11/parashat-toldot-sanctifying-hashems.
html
says "There is a Chasidic interpretation of the midrash describing
Esav's kicking to leave his mother's womb as he passed by sites idol
worship which explains as Esav's attempt to sanctify Hashem's Name in
the midst of idolatry".

Does anyone know the source? I'd like to see this inside.

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 09:20:20AM -0500, David Riceman wrote:
: Marty Bluke wrote:
:>This Maharal seems to contradict a fundamental principle of Judaism
:>that every person has free will and can choose to be a Tzadik or a
:>Rasha. If Esav's innate nature in the womb was to worship Avoda Zara
:>how can he blamed for his actions, likewise if Yaakov's innate nature
:>was for kedusha why should he be rewarded for that? See the Rambam in
:>Hilchos Teshuva the beginning of Perek 5 where the Rambam states
:>clearly and unequivocally that there is no predisposition,  every
:>person has choice what to be.

: He can be blamed for not overcoming his predisposition...

Just like someone born with a bad temper. Also touches on the West's MZ
debate -- it makes no difference if the taavah is innate.

Besides, if bechirah is only at the nequdas habechirah, and a person
isn't judged by where he is in an absolute sense, but rather how he
has moved that nequdah has moved during the course of his life, then it
really makes no difference. It's like coming from an abusive home or
any other challenge HQBH throws one person and not most. Just another
thing taken into account.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
mi...@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org         - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 10:24:47AM +0200, R Marty Bluke wrote:
: The Maharal gives a very perplexing and difficult answer. He says that
: Esav was not propelled by the Yetzer Hara to go to the house of Avoda
: Zara rather that was simply his nature...

My own dilemma is understanding the difference between yh"r and "his
nature".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 09:13:33AM -0800, Simon Montagu wrote:
: On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 10:45 AM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
:> Actually Chazal tell us there are three locations to which the nations
:> of the world can't possibly contest our title, because we paid cash for
:> them: Me'aras Hamachpela, Kever Yosef, and Har Habayis. ?About the rest
:> of EY the nations can say "listim atem", but not about these three sites.
:> It's ironic, therefore, that today those are the three most contentious
:> sites, that the nations most strenuously insist are not ours.

: Apparently Chazal underestimated the ingenuity of the nations: rather
: than contesting our title, they contest the identification of the
: sites.

I once saw the first Rashi explained in similar terms. Why did R' Yichaq
assume the nations that challenge our claim to EY would care what *our*
scriptures say about Who owned the land and had a right to distribute
it?

Ela, the point is that some of *us* might weaken and be swayed by their
arguments.

I think something similar could be said here. We need the rebuttal for
our own chizuq.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A person must be very patient
mi...@aishdas.org        even with himself.
http://www.aishdas.org         - attributed to R' Nachman of Breslov
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 09:06:26AM -0500, David Riceman wrote:
:> But that's not a merit issue?

:> This explanation would still be baasher hu sham.

: No.  Now he's hayyav misah.  That would be an extenuating circumstance 
: which would allow lenience in sentencing...

Or an extentuating neti'ah.

Had the Mitzri been worth saving, even bemiddas harachamim, it would
mean that there was some spark of some kind of good that could in the
future become something of value.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Time flies...
mi...@aishdas.org                    ... but you're the pilot.
http://www.aishdas.org                       - R' Zelig Pliskin
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Rav Sternbuch told me a story about the Chazon Ish. There was a secular 
Israeli who was thrown in jail on some questionable charge. People came 
to the Chazon Ish and asked him whether there was a mitzva of pidyon 
shevuim. The Chazon Ishe asked whether the man kept taharas mishpacha? 
When he heard the answer was negative he told them that it was for his 
own good that he stay in jail


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