Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 359

Sun, 12 Oct 2008

• 1. Re: Free Will vs. Physics (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 2. Re: davening to melachim (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 3. Re: davening to melachim (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 4. Re: Is the term "He died before his time" correct? (T6...@aol.com)
• 5. Re: davening to melachim (T6...@aol.com)
• 6. Re: rain on succot (T6...@aol.com)
• 7. Re Free will vs. Physics (david guttmann)
• 8. Re: Re Free will vs. Physics (Micha Berger)
• 9. Free will vs. Physics (david guttmann)
• 10. Re: Free will vs. Physics (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: davening to melachim/toby (herb basser)
• 12. Re: rain on succot (kennethgmil...@juno.com)

On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 13:59:54 -0400
Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

...

> Random activity on a quantum level DOES go against a deterministic
> physics. Maybe one can say that it's statistically deterministic -- the
> odds have to be met, but no one outcomes does.

IIUC, although physicists have found convincing evidence that Bell's
inequality doesn't hold, that only rules out *local* hidden variable
theories; there is no proof that a non-local hidden variable
interpretation of quantum theory is impossible, and if such an
interpretation would be correct, then the universe could indeed be
deterministic.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_variables_theory

...

> On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 05:57:07PM -0400, Yitzhak Grossman wrote:

...

> : I think that you are conflating the concepts of 'algorithmic' and
> : 'deterministic'.  Something can be noncomputable but perfectly
> : deterministic, as Turing showed...
> 
> (Actually Turing didn't. What he showed was that there are problems that
> aren't computable. He didn't prove there was a machine that could solve
> them. Such a machine would be beyond algorithmic, but still deterministic
> -- once we say it exists. But my problem is with determinism and
> randomness, not really algorithm.)

I don't understand your point here; what did I say that Turing showed
that you deny that he did?

...


> Here's the basic dilemma, in hopefully clearer language.
> 
> Say a person is now deciding whether or not to steal a diamond.
> 
> If the person's decision is based entirely on a sum of the history of
> things he experienced and the nature of his personality (both static and
> in its propensities to evolve in various ways), then the soul is
> deterministic. If so, his decision is entirely a product of things
> beyond the person's control, and why should he be blamable for anything?
> 
> If the other element is that it's not fully caused by the outside, then
> is free will simply randmoness? That still means a person can't be the
> subject of blame or guilt.

I agree that there is a profoundly important question here.

...

> Micha Berger             When memories exceed dreams,

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - bdl.freehostia.com
An advanced discussion of Hoshen Mishpat

On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 15:05:56 -0400
"herb basser" <bass...@queensu.ca> wrote:

>	 I took special note in Neila that we beseech midas harachamim--
>	 and decided from its wording that here midas harachamim was a
>	 seperate being from HKBH-- so I skipped that particular part of
>	 the piyyut-- anyone else bothered by it? made me wonder if the
>	 whole piyyut of 13 midos also construed them as separate from
>	 HKBH. it occurred to me that the midrashim and targumim that
>	 translate what happened in the cleft of the rock was that hashem's
>	 angels came to moshe-- maybe kol tuvi=the midos as melachim.  

We discussed this recently; see:

http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/2008q3/009265.html
http://lists.aishdas.org/htdig.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org/2008q4/009366.html
http://lists.aishdas.org/htdig.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org/2008q4/009375.html

>     Zvi basser

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - bdl.freehostia.com
An advanced discussion of Hoshen Mishpat

On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 15:05:56 -0400
"herb basser" <bass...@queensu.ca> wrote:

>	 I took special note in Neila that we beseech midas harachamim--
>	 and decided from its wording that here midas harachamim was a
>	 seperate being from HKBH-- so I skipped that particular part of
>	 the piyyut-- anyone else bothered by it? made me wonder if the
>	 whole piyyut of 13 midos also construed them as separate from
>	 HKBH. it occurred to me that the midrashim and targumim that
>	 translate what happened in the cleft of the rock was that hashem's
>	 angels came to moshe-- maybe kol tuvi=the midos as melachim.  

We discussed this recently; see:

http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/2008q3/009265.html
http://lists.aishdas.org/htdig.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org/2008q4/009366.html
http://lists.aishdas.org/htdig.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org/2008q4/009375.html

>     Zvi basser

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - bdl.freehostia.com
An advanced discussion of Hoshen Mishpat

 
 
From: Micha Berger _micha@aishdas.org_ (mailto:mi...@aishdas.org) 
: >>An eis is a  time that comes according to a prescheduled appointment,
: >>ready or  not. It is a point in a shanah, in cyclic time that runs its
:  >>celestial heartbeat regardless of human action. A zeman is a landmark  in
: >>the course of progression.





>>>>>
I believe that "zman" is a date or a season and  "eis" is the time of day.  
You have "eis" as a point in the shana but I  think that "zman" is the word for 
a point in the calendar.  Cf. on Chanuka  when we say "bayamim hahem bizman 
hazeh" -- zman hazeh meaning this time of  year.  
 
Also cf. Rashi on P' Mishpatim, 21:21 on the words "Ach im yom oh yomayim  
ya'amod" -- if somebody strikes his slave and his slave survives "one day or two 
 days" before dying.  Rashi says that means he survives 24 hours, living  
part of one day and part of the next day -- "ze me'eis la'eis" -- he survives  
from this time one day to the same time the next day.




--Toby  Katz
GCT
=============



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From: "herb basser" _basserh@queensu.ca_ (mailto:bass...@queensu.ca) 

>>  I took special note in Neila that we beseech midas harachamim-- and 
decided from  its wording that here midas harachamim was a seperate being from  
HKBH<<
 
    Zvi basser
bass...@queensu.ca




>>>>>
That's like saying your sense of humor is a separate being from you.   If I 
appeal to your mercy, to your compassion, to your sense of justice, to your  
integrity -- have I just proclaimed you a victim of multiple personality  
disorder, with four or five separate selves??
 
Interestingly Christianity actually does this -- by calling Ruach Hakodesh  
("the Holy Ghost") a separate and distinct being in the trinity.    They got 
there by being excessively literal, which is what it seems to me you  are doing.


--Toby  Katz
GCT
=============



**************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination.  
Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out 
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From: "Eli Turkel" _eliturkel@gmail.com_ (mailto:elitur...@gmail.com) 

>>The  weather forecast in Israel for the next several days is rain
in various parts  of the country. According to the gemara this is a
sign of a  curse<<


 


>>>>>
It is only a curse if it rains on the first night  of Sukkos at the time of 
the seudah and rains hard enough to prevent you  from eating in the sukka that 
night.   After midnight or any other  time during the chag rain is a bracha.  
Rashi says the best time for  rain is leilei Shabasos after midnight, when 
everybody is snug at home.  At  almost any other time, rain is definitely 
inconvenient but still a  bracha.




--Toby  Katz
GCT
=============



**************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination.  
Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out 
(http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002)
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RMB wrote

 >My approach to this problem is to consider the metaphysical world -- in
which the Neshamah resides -- as part of this equation. The Neshamah makes
 a decision, and interfaces with the physical world via the brain

Where is Bechira if the metaphysical Neshamah over which I have no control
determines what I do? I understood that the metaphysical Sechel Hapoel is
just out there and my brain taps into that information which is constantly
available (shefa) if one seeks it out. 

David Guttmann
 
If you agree that Believing is Knowing, join me in the search for Knowledge
at http://yediah.blogspot.com/ 
 
Ve'izen vechiker (Kohelet 12:9) subscribe to Hakirah at www.hakirah.org 

On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 01:32:12PM -0400, david guttmann wrote:
: Where is Bechira if the metaphysical Neshamah over which I have no control
: determines what I do? ...

The metaphysical soul /is/ me.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

RMB writes:

>If the person's decision is based entirely on a sum of the history of
things he experienced and the nature of his personality (both static and in
its propensities to evolve in various ways), then the soul is deterministic.
If so, his decision is entirely a product of things beyond the person's
control, and why should he be blamable for anything?

But are not his past experiences a consequences of earlier bechirot he did
and the same goes for his personality? Why limit Bechirah to this particular
act without taking into the sum total of all past decisions and actions?

>Let's posit some internal cause as a third possibility. The person can be
blamed for stealing the diamond because his decision was caused by some
factor, a taavah for wealth (or women, or...) not just external, or initial
causes, nor random causelessness. But then we must ask where that taavah
comes from. Wouldn't its origins be subject to the very same question as the
decision itself?

I think what I wrote above solves this. The ta'ava is not a momentary reflex
and urge but is the result of the whole person and his past history. That is
one more reason why Teshuvah is such a chidush and it fits with the leshonot
Harambam in Hil Teshuvah chapter 7 at the end of a discussion about Bechirah
the gist of it is that a ba'al teshuvah is a new person having reworked and
rearranged all his past experiences. 

David Guttmann
 
If you agree that Believing is Knowing, join me in the search for Knowledge
at http://yediah.blogspot.com/ 
 
Ve'izen vechiker (Kohelet 12:9) subscribe to Hakirah at www.hakirah.org 

On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 01:45:59PM -0400, david guttmann wrote:
:>If the person's decision is based entirely on a sum of the history of
:> things he experienced and the nature of his personality (both static and in
:> its propensities to evolve in various ways), then the soul is deterministic.
:> If so, his decision is entirely a product of things beyond the person's
:> control, and why should he be blamable for anything?

: But are not his past experiences a consequences of earlier bechirot he did
: and the same goes for his personality? Why limit Bechirah to this particular
: act without taking into the sum total of all past decisions and actions?

You're begging the question. How did that previous decision become his?
At some point, there is a first decision that was somehow neither random
nor determined by how he was made and what he experienced.

You can't explain decision number i based on decision nnumber i-1, as
i-1 woulld then have to be explained in terms of i-2, which in turn
gets you back to i-3, etc...

As I tried to summarize, the problem is
> Not a question about the decision itself, but about where the shift
> occurs
> from: a conflict of desires/goals the baby was either
>     (1) wired for, or
>     (2) forced into by experience plus wiring
> to: a conflict including a desire the person can be held accountable
> for having?

On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 12:07:10AM -0400, Yitzhak Grossman wrote:
:>: I think that you are conflating the concepts of 'algorithmic' and
:>: 'deterministic'.  Something can be noncomputable but perfectly
:>: deterministic, as Turing showed...

:> (Actually Turing didn't. What he showed was that there are problems that
:> aren't computable. He didn't prove there was a machine that could solve
:> them. Such a machine would be beyond algorithmic, but still deterministic
:> -- once we say it exists. But my problem is with determinism and
:> randomness, not really algorithm.)

: I don't understand your point here; what did I say that Turing showed
: that you deny that he did?

Turing proved that there are questions that can't be anwered by any
algorithm. He didn't show that there exists another mechnism that /can/
answer them. In order to show there are deterministic systems that
aren't algorithmic, you have to prove that there are systems that can
produce these predictable answers.

The human mind can't answer every question. How can we assume we could
leap over the Halting Problem to determine the solution to the version
written for our minds?

But in any case, we don't /want/ to prove that the mind is
deterministic.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is harder to eat the day before Yom Kippur
mi...@aishdas.org        with the proper intent than to fast on Yom
http://www.aishdas.org   Kippur with that intent.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rabbi Israel Salanter

Toby:
"That's like saying your sense of humor is a separate being from you. "

Yeah-- sometimes I just say these things also, because thats the minhag and
think like that. I know from reliable eidus rav yaakov weinberg interupted
slichos once and silenced the shaliach tsibur. anyways--what makes you
think I have as sence of humor? anyways-- either you are misaken or for
hazal hashem is schitzoid, which I refuse to accept.

-- do you doven to your sense of humor or talk to it? there is a very
ancient strand that divides the midos-- especially din and rachamim as
agents of overseeing the world. it surfaces in Philo (life of moses 2:99)
and kabbalah many sources in zohar, ramban's rosh hashannah derashot,  
Also in midrashim where they talk to hashem--b shabbat 55 a-- midas hadin
asks hashem--what is the difference between bnei yisrael and idol
worshippers.(megilla 15b) see sanhedrin 94a,  and see sefer haminhagim rosh
hashannah 109 (hagahaot),  -- which quotes the aggada (midrash) telling us
that midas harachamim was created and immediatley complained to hashem that
he should use midas hadin to judge the world.-- in zohar "midas harachim"
is "hesed" and "tifferes". and in the piyyut midas harachamim is directly
spoken to by the paytan- which is my point-- and sefer yeraim siman 223
likewise and and shaarei teshuva shaar gimel (196)  has a whole discussion
between the midos and hashem where hashem
  reprimands them. but your sense of humor may be a biria bifnei atzma-- a special creation too. 

btw-- why should we call it "neila"-- we asked for "psicha"-- pesach lanu shaar.

Zvi
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R' Eli Turkel wrote:
> The weather forecast in Israel for the next several days
> is rain in various parts of the country. According to the
> gemara this is a sign of a curse

and then he asked:
> The Kinneret is at it lowest level in recorded history. Any
> rains are welcome to fill the water reservoirs. Many people
> are thrilled at an early start of the rain season. How can
> it be a curse?

It seems to me that you've found another example of Chazal making a comment
which people *mistakenly* take to be always true. In actuality, they're
just making a *general* comment which is *usually* true, but allows for
exceptions.

(My favorite proof to this idea: How can "Everyone who does A is guaranteed
Olam Haba" and "No one who does B will get Olam Haba" both be true? What of
the person who does both A and B? It must be that statements are
exaggerations, or metaphors, or something. In any case *not* to be taken at
face value all the time.)

Akive Miller

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