Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 227

Sun, 22 Jun 2008

• 1. Re: NishmaBlog : Evolutionary Patterns in Halachic Texts (Richard Wolpoe)
• 2. Re: An old Pshat and a Question About Milchig on Shavuos (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 3. Re: An old Pshat and a Question About Milchig on Shavuos (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 4. Re: Did Tziporah say Lashon Hara? (Richard Wolpoe)
• 5. Re: MR was king (Richard Wolpoe)
• 6. Re: Did Tziporah say Lashon Hara? (David Riceman)
• 7. Re: Your brother's a Mumar; here's the solution! (T613K@aol.com)
• 8. Halachic Texts: More Background (Richard Wolpoe)

On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 10:02 AM, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 21:17:12 -0700 (PDT), Richard Wolpoe
> <RabbiRichWolpoe@gmail.com> pointed us to his Nisha Blog entry at
> <
> http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/2008/06/evolutiona
> ry-patterns-in-halachic-texts.html
> >
> "Evolutionary Patterns in Halachic Texts":
> >    Below I have outlined a very simplistic model. The common theme is
> >    expansion and contraction or condensation - much like a Chiastic
> >    structure.
>
> I think your suggestion as you then spell it out is more straightforward
> than this introductory summary:
>
> What defines an era is a sudden reduction ("mishnaic form") followed by a
> slow expansion first through noting significant excluded options, then
> through more gemera-like development.
>
> Is R' Yosef Caro unique in being both Maran Bet Yosef of the "gemara"
> ending the rishonim and the Mechaber of the "mishnah" beginning the
> acharonim?
>

In effect he is, but he is really mirroring the Rambam.
Remember Rambam, SA and Kitzur SA all cite no sources.
Tur does at times.




>
>
>
>
> I think the Tur's organization scheme is derived from the Bavli's.
>
> Rebbe had 6 sedarim. But the Bavli only has 4 plus to mesechtos.
> OCh = Mes. Berakhos + Mo'eid
> EhE = Nashim + Mes. Niddah
> CM = Nezikim
> YD = Qodshim
>
> :-)BBii!
> -Micha
>

True. But the Tur's simanim aee NOW ubiquitous. Vritually no one emulates
Rambam's divinsions nor Chayei Adma's etc

And the S'eifim of the SA have NOW been retrofitted to:

   1. Tur
   2. BY
   3. AhSh
   4. MB

I think the MB migh have wanted to accomplish a Talmud of Acahronim but I
am  not convinced he succeeded. As you know I thin the AhSh did better, but
I also concede it is not a complete work either.

The Badei Hashulchan is a fine Body of work but he does not quote all major
sources either.


-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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1. The malach has no bechirah on the essential part of his shelichus. He 
is sent for this purpose (that has to do with the correlation of the 
word melech and the word malach).

2. So long as one can identify the malach as such, he need not test him 
(the Manoach and the Malach incident is instructive).

3. Most of the communication that is received by Nevi'im is via 
Malachim. Only a Navi on a very high level communicates directly with 
Hashem, and even he not on everything (as we see with Avrohom both at 
the beginning and the end of Parashas Vayeira).

KT,
YGB

Rich, Joel wrote:
> A short recap.
> R' Joel Rich asked, "Do malachim have free will to protest hkb"h's
> actions?"
> to which I replied, "Why would you think otherwise?... AFAIK, only that
> the malachs knowledge is on a much clearer level, but this doesn't
> preclude them from choosing to disobey." 
> ===========================================
>
> So lshitatcha (or OS) when a malach comes down , the recipient of
> whatever message was received has to consider the possibility that it
> was not what HKB"H wanted?  By navi we seem to have had a test, was
> there one for malachim as well?
>
> Separate issue-why did HKB"H (to either shita) create 2 pathways for
> communicating with us (malachim and neviim)?
>
> KT
> Joel Rich
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>   

Reb Tzadok:

Sichas Malachei HaShareis Perek 2:

??????? ??"? (?? ????) ?? ?????? ???? ??????? ??. ?????? ????? ????? ??? 
???? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? 
??? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ?? 
???? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? 
???? ???. ??? ?? ????? ??? ?? ?? ?? ???? ????? ???? ????:

Dover Tzedek Acharei Mos 4:

???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?"? (??? ???? ?"?.) ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? 
???', ????? ?????? ????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? 
???? ?' ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?"? 
(??? ?????? ??? ?', ?"?), ?? ??? ???? ??? ?' ????? ????? ?? ?? ????? ?? 
?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? 
???? ???? ???? ???. ?????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? 
??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ?????? 
???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?? ?? ???? ?' ????? ?? ?? ??? ?????? ???? 
?????? ???? ?? ???? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ????. ????? ???? ?? ???? (??? 
??"? ?"?) ???? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ??' ????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ????? 
?????? ??? ???? ?????? ??????? ??? ??????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? 
????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ????. ???? ????? ????? ??????:

The Bechirah that a Malach can have is only in that which is not nogei'a 
to his core mission. For purposes of his core mission he is, so to 
speak, constantly in Shomayim. Only a permanent Malach (for most of them 
are transient) who is, /kiyachol/, out of Shomayim experiences Bechirah.

KT,
YGB
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On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 11:33 AM, Zev Sero <zev@sero.name> wrote:

>
> Did the 72 candidates Moshe chose all do a lengthy course of prep for
> nevu'ah, between being chosen and going out?  The Rambam seems to say
> that this is what every person needs to do to complete himself, and
> one who has done so may or may not experience nevu'ah.  A person could
> deliberately not do the prep work, but I can't imagine that his/her
> spouse could order him/her not to.  And once the person is a suitable
> keli for nevu'ah, it doesn't seem to be up to him whether Hashem will
> choose to speak to him.  Are we to believe that when Hashem wants to
> speak to someone they can just not take the call?  Have their secretary
> tell Him that they're out?  Yonah tried to run away from nevu'ah; it
> didn't work.
>
>
>
> --
> Zev Sero
>


I have zero evidence that Hshem does not speak to  anyone or everyone.
nevuah that is special  is limited to  nevu'ah that relates to society as a
whole

We were told this in Ner Israel. The 4 wives of Ya'aqov knew there would be
12 sons but NONE were includied in the list of "nei'im" or nevi'os" the
Asnwer given by my rebb: {quoting someone - Ramban perhaps} is that PIRVATE
nevuah was available to "non-Nevi'im" too. Public ne'uah isdifferent.

A Xtian theolgoian and I had a conversation:  I asked him

> Q: When does G-d talk via Prophets and when via angels?

His answer:

> A: privately via angels, publicly via  prophets.


I'm sure this theologian never read the Rambam. although he had a general
knowledge of Judaism.

Think of  Eishes Manoa'achm, Hagar etc.

I do not know the parameters of the Rambam. Clearly there WERE b'nei nevi'im
doing prep work. The Rambam did not invent the concept of  being on a
madreiga to get  nevi'us.

But Hashem STILL is not bound by any such rules.[Even though people like to
play those games] I know numerous people in my life who  have claimed Divine
commands to do things.  One told me he moved and took his current job on 2
separate Divinie "commands" and that he was assured of a third.

I personally know of Xtians who accepted Mal'achi's heed to give ma'aser and
then almost immediately prospered.

Point? Hashem can bypass the Rambam's requirements, but that is no excuse
for a "ben Navi" not to do his homework.

-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 4:57 PM, Zev Sero <zev@sero.name> wrote:

>
>
>  Did he keep a sefer Torah with him all the time?
>> (Since the sefer Torah wasnt finished till he died obviously not)
>>
>
> OTOH once it was finished...
>
> --
> Zev Sero


So how did the Avos keep the last mitzvah, i.e. of writing a Sefer Torah?
-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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Zev Sero wrote:
> Did the 72 candidates Moshe chose all do a lengthy course of prep for
> nevu'ah, between being chosen and going out?  The Rambam seems to say
> that this is what every person needs to do to complete himself, and
> one who has done so may or may not experience nevu'ah.  A person could
> deliberately not do the prep work, but I can't imagine that his/her
> spouse could order him/her not to.
That's the clear din in EH.  He's made a prior commitment to his wife.
> <snip>
> As for the Rashi, it's not even talking about nevu'ah.  By this time
> it was too late for Moshe - he was already deep in conversation with
> Hashem, whether he wanted to be a navi or not.  The job he was trying
> (unsuccessfully) to decline had nothing to do with nevu'ah; Moshiach
> doesn't have to be a navi at all!
We're talking about being a navi 24/7, not being an ordinary navi.  
Moshe tried to decline the additional responsibility, and, rather than 
ordering him to do it, God spent a week trying to persuade him.

David Riceman

 
 
From: "Moshe Y. Gluck" _mgluck@gmail.com_ (mailto:mgluck@gmail.com) 

(It doesn't say that Avrohom loved Sorah at
all, but that's  a different story.)




>>>>>>
She is the only one of the Imahos about whom it specifically says that  her 
husband wept when she died.



--Toby Katz
=============

President  Reagan talked with the Soviets while pushing ahead with the 
deployment of Cruise  and Pershing missiles in Europe. He spoke softly ? after 
getting himself a  bigger stick.  --Mark Steyn




**************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for 
fuel-efficient used cars.      (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)
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Earlier I posted:


Just as the Talmud has been elucidated and somewhat modified by various
commentators same for Shnulchan Aruch. Generally the Halachic world has
accepted the Shulchan Aruch [with Rema] as a Hatima in the same way as
Hatiimat Hatalmud. This is "Hatimat haRishonim:. E.G.; . in biographies of
Rav J. Breuer he constantly refers to Talmud-Shulchan Aruch as being
companion volumes of authoritative Halachah. This is a widely held model.

Since the Advent of the Shulchan Aruch, the VAST majority of Halachic works
are indexed by ITS indexing as opposed to the Talmud or Rambam. Even
Teshuvot are usually divided and indexed by the 4 Turim . There are an
estimated 350 published commentaries written on the Shulchan Aruch. Plus at
least a dozen review books on issur v'heter follow this model se'if by
se'if.


Note: Hermann Strack in his work on Talmud and Midrash specifically states
[19th century]
Now the taks of the poseiq is to consult the codes and to work BACK to the
Talmud.

IOW Halchically methodology has evolved since the 12th Century [Though I am
acquainted with severl rabbis who like "Chone hame'agel were probably born
just before 1204 and just woke up!] Maybe the Rif and Rambam did not have
enough Codes to consult so they still went to the Talmud. Neverthless, it is
evident in MANY cases that Rambam went back to the Rif and NOT to the Talmud
itself. [see Kessef Mishna in Rambam's intro]. It is absolutely true that
both Rosh and Mordechai used the Rif as their basic text and the Bet yosef
used the Tur as HIS basic text

Now the Shulchan Aruch has been cannonized as THE TEXT. That does not mean
we always FOLLOW it, We don't always follow the Mishna either even though it
is the cornerstone of BOTH Talmuddim

A story I have mentioned before...
I was learning Kitzur Shulchan Aruch [KSA] one day before mincha and I had a
conversation with a fellow:

He: Hassidim learn Kitzur!
I: Do you mean they pasken like the Kitzur?
He: No they just learn it.


IOW this is the text book of Halachah for many Hassidim - and for yeshiva
Boys THE textbook is Mishna Brura. But MOST intelligent Yeshiva students do
nto follow EVERY Mishna Brurah lehalachah. [one Yeshiva bopy at Breuer's
couldn' believe that the Hazzan says BAtzitzis [hataf] instead of B'tzitzis
[sheva] because thsi is against the Mishna Brura. Apparently he did
understand that the Minhag of KAJ/Breuer goes back to the ear of
PRE-Shulchan Aruch!]

So WHY learn Talmud NOW?
Good Question! Ther are many answers. I would say that in order to
understand Tosafos! --smile-- All kidding aside, after say the 1500's the
MAIN reason is to read the commentaries ON The Gmara. The Halachic action is
there, between Rif/Rosh/Ran etc.

Artscroll has done a msterful job in BOTH its Mishna and Talmud to connect
the texts with the CODES such as Rambam/Tur and especially Shulchan Aruch .
One of the earlier works to do this was the Tiferes Yisrael on the Mishnah.
A VERY new book called "Hazarat haShas" [pun intended] by the Sephardic
Hacham Rabbi Avrahm Portal collects references from Ein Mishpat and puts
them in book form - plus some key Me'eerees. I call this a modern day Rif.
NB: Steinsaltz actually paraphrases Rambam and SA in his Halachic commentary
- but this sefer QUOTES them.

Rav Kook began a project of showing Halachah from the Talmud. Actually I
agree with the Rambam on this. Halachah is to far removed from Talmud
nowadays, Talmud is more for THEORY and CODES more for practice. At times,
you need both of course. But Bet Yosef changed everything imho by giving the
sources you need. If you add Darchei Moshe et. al. you have 98% of all bases
covered.

More on this series about the future, etc.



Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com

--
Posted By Rabbi Richard Wolpoe to
NishmaBlog<http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/2008/06/halachic-texts-more-backgroun
d.html>at
6/21/2008 11:35:00 PM



-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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