Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 161

• 1. Kaddish Yasom (Cantor Wolberg)
• 2. Yichus and IVF (Cantor Wolberg)
• 3. Hilchos Sefirah (Cantor Wolberg)
• 4. Re: mixed swimming, and allowing walking on the boardwalk (Meir Shinnar)
• 5. kaddish (SBA)
• 6. Re: Chametz Gamur (Shoshana L. Boublil)
• 7. Re: Yichus and IVF (Rich, Joel)
• 8. Re: kaddish (Eli Turkel)
• 9. Re: Chametz Gamur (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Yichus and IVF (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Hilchos Sefirah (Michael Makovi)
• 12. Bitul Chometz (Rall...@aol.com)

"2. at a recent levaya, the chabad  rabbis didnt allow any  children or
children in law to shovel the dirt...."

This is the very first time I've ever heard children-IN-LAW who were
not allowed to shovel earth. With whatever reasoning that was used,
the same reasoning might also be used to say that children-in-Law should
tear keriah. (By the way, just as a side, I think it's much more
sensitive
to use the word "earth" rather than "dirt". You shovel "dirt" on a work
detail, but you utilize a blanket of "earth" for your loved ones).

Kol tuv.
ri
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"If a Jewish woman donates an egg for IVF to a non-Jewish couple, what
is the
status of the child?"

I'm certainly no expert on this, but I think some poskim would rule



          that the egg alone does not a Jewish child
make. Perhaps a physician


                           could shed light
on whether this would fall under consanguine issues



          and personal status, etc. It also could be
argued that 2 halachically


                   acceptable
witnesses are needed at every stage even if there were



  poskim who ruled the child is Jewish.

K.T.

ri




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388. One may count the Omer in any language, however one must
understand what he is saying.
Shulchan Aruch w/Mishnah Brurah 489:1
(Would this mean that if someone didn't understand Hebrew, he should
do it in his mama lashon)?

389. One should L'chatchila count while standing. However, b'dieved,
if one counted while sitting he is Yoitze.
Shulchan Aruch w/Mishnah Brurah 489:1
(Why, then, would someone be sitting, b'dieved, if he knew he should
have been standing l'chatchila)?
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me
>  > but there is little basis for forbidding, for example, mixed swimming, and
>  > allowing walking on the boardwalk next to the beach....
RSB
>
>  > Which poskim are mattir walking on the boardwalk next to the beach?
>  >
>  > AISI it is clearly Assur. See Aruch Hashulchan EH 21: 1, 2 & 3.
>  >
>  > SBA
RMM
>  I think R' Shinar was being rhetorical. To prove the point that it
>  isn't swimming per se, but rather the un-tziut-ness (for which mixed
>  swimming is paradigmnatic but lav davka), he pointed out that walking
>  on the boardwalk is as prohibited as the actual swimming.
I wasn't being rhetorical.  The question is, what is halacha lema'ase
psak of most poskim about tzniut and the need to be mafrish.
One could be machmir, as RSBA would want.
On the other hand, at least until quite recently, it was quite the
norm for people - including prominent rashe yeshiva - to walk on the
boardwalk, either in Long Island or in Miami Beach.  This is the nth
iteration (with large n) of this topic - and on one of the earlier
iterations, one of our former chaverim confessed that he knew the
rashe yeshiva who walked on the boardwalk, and never understood it.
This position was given to my father by a prominent (MO) rav, as they
were together in the swimming pool in a hotel at Miami Beach - the rav
would understand the basis for being machmir, but not the basis of
those who walked the boardwalk, where the level of zniut was far worse
than in a hotel swimming pool of elderly Jews...

WRT to RMB's point about changes in swimming attire, while this may be
true of the garb of the 1890s, it was not true of the swimming attire
of the 1920 and for sure 1930s - and people kept coming both to
marienbad, as well as the beaches at Trieste - the swimming attire of
the 1930s was not very different than that at a family friendly pool
or beach today.  (Again, on a previous iteration, someone challenged,
then went to reference books on attire, and confessed that that was so
- and remained that he just couldn't udnerstand how those rabbanim
would do it...)
Meir Shinnar

From: "Eli Turkel" < >
There is a famous story (I believe the chatam Sofer) of several people
who were fighting to be shatz on the same time. CS voluntarily gave it
up saying the zechus of avoiding a fight was greater then saying a
kaddish or being shatz through a fight.
>>

I can't recall where I saw that if someone grabs the amud away from the
person really should have had it (maybe it was also re Kaddish), the benefit
of the tefila still goes to the (other) rightful neshama.

>>I have also seen poskim that object to the minhag of splitting a
minyan so that 2 people can be shliach tzibbur at the same time<<

KSA 26:15 says to split the Amud, with the 2nd person taking over at ashrei
Uvo LeZion.

SBA

 From: "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org>
> Subject: Re: [Avodah] Chametz Gamur

> So, they wanted peanut butter for Pesach. I pointed out that you can't
> find KLP peanut butter in the states. (And in EY, can you be sure it
> doesn't contain "real" qitniyos?) They asked me if they could find raw
> peanuts in shells, would I let them make their own peanut butter?
> Theoretically, it sounds fine, but yet somehow I can't bring myself to
> let them do it.

This year, my sons-in-law did some research of their own, and discovered
that some of the labels "for kitniyot only" on packaged  food stuffs in
Israel, were there b/c the pans were brushed with oil before baking.  The
items themselves contained no kitniyot at all.
So anyone who does use Mei Kitniyot could have actually eaten these items.

Another issue that came to mind was the restaurants - most of them were
"kosher for Ochlei Kitniyot".  But the fact of the matter is that items like
salads (in dairy restaurants) could be completely kitniyot-free, as long as
you asked them to serve the dressing on the side, and you used olive oil
instead of whatever vinaigrette they were offering.

BTW, this year Rav Ya'akov Ariel made it clear that he doesn't consider
Canola oil to be kitniyot, especially for any who have the minhag to use
Liftit on Pesach.

Shoshana L. Boublil

"If a Jewish woman donates an egg for IVF to a non-Jewish couple, what
is the
status of the child?"

= ========================================

In general these issues seem to be  still in flux, especially when you
think about surrogate mothers and cloning and realize we're also asking
who (if there is one) is the halachik father, mother, first born.....
The early halachik sources are very sparse.


BTW is it well known that R'SZA and R'HS apparently hold that we are not
doche shabbat for a brit of an IVF (or artificial insemination  iiuc)
baby (and I would guess pidyon would be without a brachia - all based on
a comment by rabbeinu channanel (iirc) on the ambatya pregnancy case)?

KT
Joel Rich







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>
>>>I have also seen poskim that object to the minhag of splitting a
> minyan so that 2 people can be shliach tzibbur at the same time<<
>
> KSA 26:15 says to split the Amud, with the 2nd person taking over at ashrei
> Uvo LeZion.
>
> SBA
>
that is the common minhag for schachris. I meant more micha and maariv which
can't be split.
I know of one person who ran from minyan to minyan trying to find a
place he could
be shatz during the 12 month avelut



--
Eli Turkel

On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 11:59:21 -0400 Michael Makovi" <mikewindd...@gmail.com>
quoted RZSero and invited discussion:
>> I'd think looking at the ingredients would be enough for this purpose.
>> Since kitniyot are batel berov anyway, surely one needn't worry about
>> ingredients they didn't feel important enough to list.

> I would be interested in a further discussion on this.

On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 07:22:08PM +0300, Shoshana L. Boublil wrote:
: This year, my sons-in-law did some research of their own, and discovered
: that some of the labels "for kitniyot only" on packaged  food stuffs in
: Israel, were there b/c the pans were brushed with oil before baking.  The
: items themselves contained no kitniyot at all.
: So anyone who does use Mei Kitniyot could have actually eaten these items.

I think this was the kind of situation RZS was envisioning, and why he
mentioned bitul.

I was raising a different problem. Here in the US, there is no KLP for
okhelei qitniyos. So, if the item contains peanuts or mei qitniyos, I have
no hechsher telling me whether or not it also contains an issur deOraisa.

: BTW, this year Rav Ya'akov Ariel made it clear that he doesn't consider
: Canola oil to be kitniyot, especially for any who have the minhag to use
: Liftit on Pesach.

Well, the "especially" is no chiddush. Canola is liftit, no?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

--
Micha Berger             Today is the 11th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 4 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Netzach sheb'Gevurah: What is imposing about
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            strict justice?

On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 09:45:44PM -0600, Daniel Israel wrote:
: An interesting question came up at our Shabbos table recently.  If a
: Jewish woman donates an egg for IVF to a non-Jewish couple, what is the
: status of the child?  Is there consensus among the poskim on this?  Can
: anyone point me to some good references?  Thanks.

RJR is correct - depends on the poseiq. AFAIK, though, the trend is
to ignore

In previous iterations of the topic (here? mail-jewish? scj(m)?) I
extrapolated from R' Dovid Lifshitz's shitah on maggots. The invisibly
small simply has no ability to cause a chalos.

Since then, I saw that the permissability of small bugs is associated
with the idiom "lo nitenah Torah lemal'akhei hashareis". I couldn't
decide if this was literal, or a quote lifted out of context to become an
idiom. But in any case, it wouldn't be RDL's chidush, then, to generalize
the kashrus of microscopic bugs to negate the significance of anything
a normal human being can't see.

One citation that was easy to find again was AhS YD 84:36. And he
explicates the deduction -- if the ayin einah sholetes bahem, they have
no mamashus.

The Chokhmas Adam (Bamidbar 6:3; found when looking for MMs for the above)
explicitly says that the Torah doesn't discuss things you can only see
with a magnifying lens. As a general rule.

R' Shelmo Kluger, shu"t Tuv Ta'am vaDa'as Tenina (Qunterus Aharon #53)
as well.


According to all of these, a human egg should be ignored by halakhah.

Unless one would argue that the pe'ulah causes the chalos, even if
the cheftzah is ignored. IN which case, who defined parentage in terms
of weilding syringes and implantation?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

--
Micha Berger             Today is the 11th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 4 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Netzach sheb'Gevurah: What is imposing about
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            strict justice?

> > 389. One should L'chatchila count while standing. However, b'dieved, if one
> > counted while sitting he is Yoitze.
> > Shulchan Aruch w/Mishnah Brurah 489:1

> (Why, then, would someone be sitting, b'dieved, if he knew he should have
> been standing l'chatchila)?
> R' Wolberg

You are really asking "Why does anyone do anything b'dieved?"

Perhaps he was sitting and counted the omer, and only during counting
realized. (I've done this with Aleinu; I was already sitting for, say,
tachanun, and I went straight into Aleinu. It can happen if you aren't
with a minyan.) Or perhaps he realized during the day (say, while
reading the newspaper) that he didn't count the previous night, and he
immediately and spontaneously counted, without standing up first.

Mikha'el Makovi

If chometz is botel b'shishim before Pesach. If an item is already botel and
purchased before Pesach may it be consumed on Yom Tov? IOW once something is
botel does it stay botel?


My basic question is if you have a product which has less than shishim of
chometz contained in it, which is botel before Yom Tov. What happens if you buy
that product on Chol HaMoed? When does botel b'shishim occur when it's made or
when you purchase it?


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