Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 153

Tue, 29 Apr 2008

• 1. Re: HQBH speaks through History [was R' Angel & GeirusRedux] (Harry Maryles)
• 2. Re: Eating Two Kezeisim of Matza for Motzi-Matza (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: Eating Two Kezeisim of Matza for Motzi-Matza (Eli Turkel)
• 4. Re: Eating Two Kezeisim of Matza for Motzi-Matza (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: When does mixed swimming mean? (Gershon Dubin)
• 6. Re: When does mixed swimming mean? (Harry Maryles)
• 7. Re: When does mixed swimming mean? (Rich, Joel)
• 8. Re: When does mixed swimming mean? (Minden)
• 9. General: The Three Zechusim (Prof. Levine)
• 10. interruptions to prayer (Eli Turkel)
• 11. Re: Shabur Malka v Caesar (Yisrael Dubitsky)
• 12. Re: [Areivim] airline prayer (kennethgmiller@juno.com)

 
       
  Please do not conflate TIDE with TuM.  They are two very different
  philosophies, often at odds with each other.	This has been extensively
  discussed on A/A before you came aboard.
  
  
--Toby Katz
=============
  ----------------
   
  Very different?
   
  How do you define each and why are you so opposed to TuM and supportive
  of TIDE?  I don't see that much of a difference between them. I know
  you've addressed this issue in the past in the course of disscussions on
  this issue. But can you be a bit more specific and do so in a single
  post? What is it about TuM that is not a part of TIDE that makes it so
  very different - that bothers you? ...that makes you believe that it is a
  wrong Hashkafa?
   
  HM


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Eli Turkel wrote:
> How can each person at the table eat a kezayit from each of the top two
> matzos, when we use such tiny matzos? >>
> 
> RMF suggests using other matzot besides the 3 on the seder plate.
> Others distribute a set of 3 to each person (or couple)

That's where we came from.  That is indeed what we do now that we've
started using tiny matzot; and since we do so, there's no point in
those who take from the box to eat two kezeitim.  But the original
minhag was for everybody to get their kezeitim from the seder plate,
in which case everybody should get and eat a kezayit from each of
the top and middle matzah.  The middle matzah was specifically to
be made extra large so that everyone could get a kezayit from the
smaller "half".


> I have been confused by the whole discussion. I thought the whole idea
> of 2 kezaisim of matza was a daas yachid of the Rosh which is basically
> not accepted for halacha but is done as chumra. If so why the fuss?
> The idea presented that only the head of the table eats 2 kezaisim
> sounds reasonable.

It makes no more sense for him than for anyone else.  Since everyone
is eating from the same matzot, everyone has the same safek which
matzah the "al achilat matzah" was made over, so everyone needs a
kezayit from both.  The distinction between the leader of the seder
and everyone else only makes sense for us with our tiny matzot.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

.<<Since everyone is eating from the same matzot, everyone has the same
safek which matzah the "al achilat matzah" was made over, so everyone
needs a kezayit from both.  The distinction between the leader of the seder
and everyone else only makes sense for us with our tiny matzot.>>

Depends on who makes the beracha.  On the wine there are different minhagim
if everyone makes kiddush or else the leader is motzi everyone. Samething for
homitzi/al achilat matzah each person could have their own set but be
yotzeh with
the beracha of the leader.

BTW why does Zev call this tiny matzot. Were the old matzot bigger than our
round hand shmura?

-- 
Eli Turkel

Eli Turkel wrote:
> .<<Since everyone is eating from the same matzot, everyone has the same
> safek which matzah the "al achilat matzah" was made over, so everyone
> needs a kezayit from both.  The distinction between the leader of the seder
> and everyone else only makes sense for us with our tiny matzot.>>
> 
> Depends on who makes the beracha.  On the wine there are different
> minhagim if everyone makes kiddush or else the leader is motzi everyone.
> Samething for homitzi/al achilat matzah each person could have their
> own set but be yotzeh with the beracha of the leader.

That shouldn't make a difference.  Whether they say their own bracha or
are yotzei with the leader's, the question still remains which matzah
the bracha's supposed to be on: the top or the middle.  So they need
a kezayit from each.  But with our matzot, since they're not getting
from either one anyway, the question becomes moot.


> BTW why does Zev call this tiny matzot. Were the old matzot bigger than our
> round hand shmura?

Definitely.  The three matzot were made from an issaron of flour
(a shiur chalah), and the middle one was made bigger than the other two
specifically so that each person at the seder could get a kezayit from
the smaller "half".  That makes them enormously bigger than our matzot.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

-- Zev Sero <zev@sero.name> wrote:

<<2. If a communal pool, was it mixed?  Surely not!>>

I don't recall that the beaches were frequented by the gedolim when the Agudah convention was held in Atlantic City, either.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Actually the addition of water seems to add quite a bit to it all.

See the last page of Gittin [90b]: 
"Middas adam ra sheroeh es ishto...verochetzes im bnei adam."

"Im bnei adam salka daatach!?"

[Peirush Rashi: "Im kein raglayim ledavar shezonah hi, ve'asurah lo".

Tosfos: "Afilu adam ra eino sovel zeh me'ishto...afilu kala shebekalos
eino oseh ken.."]

"Ela bemakom shebnei adam rochtzin - zu mitzva min haTorah legarsho"

No issur of mixed swimming!? My foot!!

- How can you call persons who engage in mixed swimming "bnei adam" ??

SBA<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
   
  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   
   
  The Gemarah is not talking about going mixed swimming in a social
  context. It is clearly talking about a woman who acts in a promiscuous
  way so as to attract the attention of other men for purposes of
  committing adultry.The 'swimming  in the case of the Gemarah is  talking
  about a woman who goes to bathe in a men's bath house while they are
  there.
   
  HM




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It seems to me that swimming pools bring out a person's inner child to
some degree (perhaps due to the relative weightlessness?) thereby
leading to Kalus Rosh more so than, say, a formal dinner (even where
alcohol is served). IOW, even if the visual aspects of Tzenius were
totally absent there still might be an issue.

KT,
MYG 

========================================


Assumedly amusement parks do the same thing.

KT
Joel Rich
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Thank you.

1. We don't pasken straight from a gemore.

2. Even if a certain type of behaviour is typical of a z?ne, one would have
to kler whether it is inherent or if it was their habit in a given place
and historical period.

3. Taking a bath, for practical reasons of enhanced cleansing probably naked, isn't going for a swim in a swimsuit.

4. I'm afraid I don't understand the "al aches kame vekame". (Apart from
that, after a week of living in the Ancient Near East, a bath is at least
as relaxing as a swim, I take it.) So, scrubbing yourself in public while
naked isn't good, aakv"k swimming. Alright, I see your swim and raise you
aakv"k a Shabbes chat in the shul court. Even more leisure and relaxing
than swimming. (It's not of import here that it's also forbidden in some
circles.)

5. Calling a ben odem not a ben odem isn't worthy of a ben odem, IMHO. I
don't know if the SR zetza"l actually said what you quote or if this was
only (dis)credited to him, but I used to think that this "typical chareidi"
hateful haughtiness was actually just a matter of some marginal
representatives. Also, technically, this utterance presumes that mixed
swimming is universally a natural no-no for humans, not a societal custom
or a matter of human refinement through God's laws.

ELPhM

-- 
http://lipmans.blogspot.com

Another myth bites the dust

Torn asunder?

Unmasked?

Unclothed?

Laid bare?

Exposed?

-----Original Message-----
From: daf-discuss-bounces@shemayisrael.co.il
[ mailto:daf-discuss-bounces@shemayisrael.co.il] On Behalf Of Kollel Iyun
Hadaf
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 2:28 AM
To: Discuss list
Subject: General: The Three Zechusim

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_________________________________________________________________

               THE DAF YOMI DISCUSSION LIST

   brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim
  Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld daf@dafyomi.co.il

[REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE TO DISCUSS THE DAF WITH THE KOLLEL]
________________________________________________________________

General: The Three Zechusim

Barry Robinson asked:

Dear Kollel,

I have been asked to find the mekor for the well-known statement that Klal
Yisroel were saved from Mitzrayim B'Zechus of the three things they kept -
they did not change their names, their language and their clothing.

I have found several variants on this maamar in various  Midrashic sources.
Almost all of the variants list four Zechusim - for example, many of the
variant versions remove mention of clothing and add that Klal Yisroel did
not speak Lashon Hara and were careful about Arayos.

But everyone I talk to seems to remember learning the first version in
school.  Were we misled by our teachers or does this form of the Midrash
really exist?

Thank You.
Barry Robinson
Cong. Or Torah, Skokie, Illinois, USA

-----------------------------
The Kollel replies:

The earliest source seems to be Eliyahu Bachur (c. 1500), who quotes it the
way we often hear it in the introduction to his Sefer Meturgeman. Shlomo
Buber, in his notes to Pesikta d'Rav Kahana (Parshas Vayehi Beshalch fn.
#66) makes your point and says Eliyahu Bachur has absolutely no source in
Midrash. (It is not clear to me how the quote became so popular, perhaps it
was used to defend Chasidic garb.)

There is one Midrash (Lekach Tov to Shmos 6:6) which counts among the four
Zechusim that they didn't change their names or their "Salmos" (clothes).
However, almost certainly the Lamed is a scribe's mistake. In either case it
doesn't use the word "Levushan."

To me it would seem that the truth is Eliyahu Bachur's source is Bamidbar
Rabah 13:20 where 3 (not 4) Zechuyos are counted and the third is that they
were Gedurim Min ha'Ervah (and not that they were not Parutz b'Arayos - as
it appears in every other Midrash). Gedurim means they took measures to
prevent Arayos and it might refer to adopting the immodest Egyptian mode of
dress. We find such Gedurim m'Ervah in practice in Chazal, such as in Rashi,
Sanhedrin top of 74b.

May we be Zocheh to fulfill all these Midrashim ourselves!

Best wishes for a Chag Kasher v'Same'ach!

Mordecai Kornfeld
Kollel Iyun Hadaf

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There has been a discussion on areivim about a passenger on a plane
who was davening during boarding and refused to stop when asked by the
stewardess
and was evicted. In a very short summary most of the responders felt
the passenger should
have moved or sat down and continued the amidah based on either
chillul hashem or
else "management wins" arguments. Zev Sero disagreed on the grounds that the
stewardess's request was not legitimate.

On Avodah I would like to turn this into a more general halachic question.
Many people on the go end up davening in many public places. The
general question
is what to do when in the middle of amidah this becomes a problem. It contrast
to the airplane question in most cases the question is more of chillul
hashem rather
than management rights.
Some examples:
1. One is davening minchah at the proverbial telephone booth (do they
still exist?)
In the middle someone starts complaing loudly that you are hogging the
phone and he needs the
phone shortly for an important call.
2. One goes to a secluded spot and in the middle of shemonei esrei
people come over and
say they need the spot for either work or recreation. Remember that
stopping to explain to them
that it is only a few minutes and important is a bigger problem then
simply moving to a new
location.

The gemara discusses the case of a tanna who when into a churva to
daven and disgusses the
propiety of entering a churba. Ignoring the gemara's difficulties what
happens if the middle
workers show up to fix part of the churva that is beginning to fall

In all these cases I assume the outsiders are either nonJews or else
Jews who have no
clue as to what is happening. In an orthodox setting what could just
hint at the situation.
However RYBS felt that any gestures in the middle of shemonei esrei
are forbidden even
without talking. Hence, on yomim norain he would not allow the chazzan
to jump with
his legs together for kneeling or to make any hand gestures.

kol tuv


-- 
Eli Turkel

The following response I am forwarding with the permission of its
author, Prof Yaakov Elman, the world's authority on the interplay of
Talmudic law within its Persian context:


Who says that Rava quoted the pasuk and R. Yohanan's peshat?  The
conversation probably took place in the 340's, when Shapur II and the
Romans battled in Armenia and Northern Mesopotamia.  Please note: who
was fighting closer to home?  Did the Persians get to invade far into
the Roman Empire?  Note also that when Julian was killed he had  been
at the gates of Ctesiphon, the Persian winter capital, though that was
a decade after Rava's death, though R. Papa was still alive.
Kol tuv

R Dov Weinstock wrote to Areivim:
> Re: the kaddish issue - despite the importance which kaddish
> has taken on in modern times, my understanding is that it
> has little true halachic significance. While I don't want to
> dissuade any avel from being conscientious about davening
> with a minyan, isn't this is a personal stringency which
> would have little weight vis-a-vis the other issues being
> discussed?

I had felt similarly for a long while. Then I realized that although the
obligation of Kaddish is only minhag in origin, once one actually says it,
it seems (to me) to be a kiyum of Kibud Av V'Em (which I do realize is of
less significance once the parent has passed on, but is still not trivial).

Akiva Miller
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