Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 56

Tue, 05 Feb 2008

• 1. Responsibilities to our host country - maharatz chiyut (Rich, Joel)
• 2. atzei shittim (Saul.Z.Newman@kp.org)
• 3. Re: [Areivim] Polygamy (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Sending Unsolicited Bulk Emails (Micha Berger)
• 5. Mussar (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 6. Re: [Areivim] Polygamy (Rich, Joel)
• 7. Re: [Areivim] Polygamy (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 8. Re: Ramp On! (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 9. Re: Ramp On! (T613K@aol.com)

I had originally posted the following:

> From darkei horaah -chapter 7
> 
> "vhinei bgaluteinu, anu machzikim btorah umitzvot, mitzad ki anacnu
> baalei daat myuchad, ochzim bemunat avoteinu, vchen mtzad hasheini af
> ki anachnu hayom bagolah, vtamnu lhiyot am myuchad, vnitztaveenu mpi
> chazal shebod  sheanu nichnaim tachat eizeh umah shetihiyeh, anu
> muchrachim laamos hasevel al shichmeinu, laset bol hamutal aleinu
> ulhaazin ulhakshiv bchol eit el hamoshel bchol asher yitzaveh, vgoral
> hauma vhamamlachah asher anu garim shamah, tzarich shetihiyeh minat
> chevleinu gam kein, im ltovah im lraah, lsmach bsimchatam, vlakachat
> chevel bygonam.....
> 
> 
I noticed the following:
**Kol Koreh Text**
A Public Alert to Our Fellow Jews in Our Country,
The United States of America
Gedolei Torah of previous generations have already proclaimed that every
Jewish person should participate and vote in elections held in our
benevolent country, the United States of America. This is for several
reasons.
First, it is incumbent on us to be concerned about the interests of our
fellow Jews, and we have indeed merited to see great accomplishments
that American Jewry has attained with the help of Heaven through
participation in the electoral process. Second, Divine providence has
placed the United States today in the position of being the single
greatest ally of the Jewish nation that lives in the Holy Land,
concerned with protecting it from the "70 wolves" that surround it to
destroy it, G-d forbid.
There is also the mandate of hakoras hatov (recognition of goodness),
one of the bases of our belief, which makes it incumbent on us to
express our gratitude to the benevolent country in which we dwell by
participating in its elections.


	===================================

	I wonder where within the definition of hakarat hatov is the
chiyuv to vote (which is a voluntary act) found?  There does not seem to
be in this list  any chiyuv to participate in the public welfare.
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20080205/e24ea782/attachment-0001.html 

is there any makor talking about when the atzei shittim for the mishkan 
were cut down?  were the trees chopped down the night of yetziah, or some 
years before?
it  would seem a big job to do  in one night, and i don't know how long 
all these trees  were, though http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acacia_tortilis 
 up to 20 meters seems common....

NOTICE TO RECIPIENT:  If you are not the intended recipient of this 
e-mail, you are prohibited from sharing, copying, or otherwise using or 
disclosing its contents.  If you have received this e-mail in error, 
please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and permanently 
delete this e-mail and any attachments without reading, forwarding or 
saving them.  Thank you.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20080205/cff5c16f/attachment-0001.htm 

On Thu, January 31, 2008 11:57 pm, Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
: It seems to me that Chazal generalized when it came to human nature
: intersecting with Halachah. For example, IIRC, it's a Mishnah/Gemara
: in Eiruvin that says that if a man is in his daughter-in-law's house
: for Shabbos (and he is also in the Techum of his own house) that he
: isn't Koneh Shevisah by his DIL's house because DIL's and FIL's don't
: get along...
: How do we interpret this? Are Chazal saying that the underlying human
: nature is absolute? It might appear that the FIL and DIL get along,
: but there is some predisposition to argument that will always remain?

On Fri, February 1, 2008 9:27 am, Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
: R' Joel Rich:
:> yes and  the interesting question ( a la R'YBS) is when were they
:> making sociological observations subject to change and when were
:> they stating ontological truths?

: That discussion was regarding Tav L'Meisiv Tan Du, right?

I just heard RARakeffet discuss that talk by RYBS. He found a maqor
from the Dor Revii (R' Moshe Shmuel Glasner, the Klausenburger Rav,
greatgrandfather of our chaver, R' David Glasner) that explicitly said
that chazaqos need to be reexamined as the realia change.

We mentioned this teshuvah from Tel Talpiotin the thread at
<http://tinyurl.com/2qognu?section=R#RYBS%20AND%20CHAZAKAH%20TAV%20LMEITAV>

RAR sent a copy of the article to RERackman, who in turn eventually
published it in a Bar Ilan journal. (Complete with RAR's handwritten
words in the margin.)

So, RAR had trouble understanding RYBS's, his rebbe's, shitah. As both
he and RALichtenstein give shiur in Gruss Kollel, RAR asked RAL for
his take. Here's the understanding they reached:

RYBS's big objection was not to "tav lemeisiv". It was to hafka'as
qidushin. If it were valid, RYBS said, we could throw out much of
Yevamos, Gittin, Even haEzer, etc... The Chasam Sofer and CI didn't
simply resolve problems through hafka'as qidushin. Are we wiser than
them? RYBS described it as cutting off the branches of the very tree
one is sitting in. IOW, there is a basic problem of precedent and
halachic process here.

RYBS's objections to tav lemeisav were incidental, and specific to tav
lemeisiv. Not that all chazaqos are permanent existential truths, but
only that this particular chazaqah is part of the story of the eitz
hada'as and happens to be an unchanging truth. But more than the
validity of this consideration, RYBS was raising it as a possibility,
as a reason why it's non-trivial to introduce a mechanism that was
available and apparently rejected for millennia. One needn't agree
with his assumption to agree with RYBS's larger point.

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
micha@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org     - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Sun, January 27, 2008 2:11 pm, Richard Wolberg wrote:
: The question was asked:
:> Have any poskim addressed the question of whether sending unsolicited
:> bulk emails is assur?

: There are poskim who say that having a television is assur. I think
: that question is just as absurd.  However, sending them on Shabbos is
: assur; however, I've heard respected O. rabbonim who say that watching
: television on Shabbos is technically not being m'chalel Shabbos
: although it is certainly against the spirit of Shabbos.

Then there's the case (BM 83a) where Raba's barrels were broken by his
workmen and he went to Rav for adjudication. Rav required he return
the mashkon and in the end pay the workers (who were poor) to boot!
Each time "is this din?" and Rav first answered "lema'an teileikh
bederekh tzadiqim" and thus he had to return their clothers and the
second time "uve'orkhos tzadiqim tishmor" (Mishlei 2:20) and they must
be paid.

According to Rav, the ikar hadin goes beyond the ikar hadin. Rabba may
have agreed, or may have only followed Rav because he chose Rav to
adjudicate.

Along these lines... There is no question to my mind that by Rav's
definition of halakhah, spamming would be assur.

But the question of the line between mechlachkeit and din is still
unclear to me.

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
micha@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org     - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Weighing in somewhat late here in the conversation...


What is lacking in Reb Micha's otherwise masterly presentation of the 
Mussar Derech, is the emphasis that it places on /yirah:/ Both /yiras 
ha'romemus/ and /yiras ha'onesh/, but generally under the umbrella of 
/yiras shomayim/.


The one time I spoke at one of Alan Morinis' confabs, I stressed the 
integral and essential nature of the component of /yiras shomayim/ in 
the Mussar /mahalach/. (I suspect that this emphasis is one of the 
reasons I was not asked to ever speak for them again...)


As I wrote many years ago on Avodah, it is /yirah/ that is most closely 
associated with /simchah/. Mussar without the true /yiras shomayim/ of 
R' Avrohom Elya Kaplan is indeed a morose business. But the flip side is 
that true /simchah/ is only achievable if one is working on Mussar - any 
other /simchah/ is fleeting and temporary. Indeed, even the /simchah 
/of  /Talmud Torah /is to a large extent contingent on being actually 
involved in learning, in real time. Mussar gives one the satisfaction of 
being a /Mevakesh Hashem/ at all times.


KT,

YGB

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20080205/338365d8/attachment.html 

I just heard RARakeffet discuss that talk by RYBS. He found a maqor from
the Dor Revii (R' Moshe Shmuel Glasner, the Klausenburger Rav,
greatgrandfather of our chaver, R' David Glasner) that explicitly said
that chazaqos need to be reexamined as the realia change.



SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Seems logical but is there any discussion of how and who to make such a
determination - especially since it seems assumedly chazal made these
based on their corner of the world and on anecdotal evidence  (e.g. how
did Sanhedrin determine whether rov hatzibbur would accept a gzeirah?)

KT
Joel Rich
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.

R' Joel Rich wrote:
> the interesting question ( a la R'YBS) is when were they
> making sociological observations subject to change and
> when were they stating ontological truths

A third category is when they were making scientific declarations. Besides the oft-mentioned point about killing lice on Shabbos, I am bothered by how many people butter made of non-supervised milk, even though they are otherwise makpid on Cholov Yisroel.

(Even though it is difficult, "Nevertheless, butter can be made from camel milk." -- http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/003/X6528E/X6528E04.htm on the website of the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations.)

Akiva Miller
_____________________________________________________________
Click here to find the low cost way to send and receive faxes by email!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/Ioyw6i3mm5V1bEAL6xcKuc6bQ5JCjWECG4yrrF2uLHR6gNRjtqbDhY/

R' Micha Berger asked:

> Why not allow the handicapped kohein serve, and use it as
> an opportunity to teach the idea that ...
> The fact is that HQBH didn't choose to symbolize this
> message, but rather bowed to the least common denominator
> of people's perceptions of the handicapped. And so, I
> repeat, that it is not obvious why.

Here is a partial guess, which I hope other might build upon:

Not every event is intended as an educational experience. IIRC, the requirement for a lack of mumim is often explained in terms of how distracting they are to the onlookers. Sometimes the experience should just be a simple emotional high, such as when everything runs smoothly and beautifully, without the distractions of something which is unattractive to the eye.

Yes, Torah could have allowed the baal mum to participate, to teach us NOT to consider him unattractive, but if every ritual in Judaism was designed to teach us some sort of lesson, (i dunno, someone else finish the sentence).

Akiva Miller
_____________________________________________________________
Bolster your sales numbers with professional sales training. Click here!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/Ioyw6i3m6SEXuGRFSTLF7Fnr8RH0IJrWowT7KYBhgnDtbTNr9ggRn0/

 
 
RMB wrote:

>>All human beings are finite. Some may be  limited in more obvious ways,
or even more limited than others, but that's a  matter of degree not
kind.

RSRH is saying, kedarko beqodesh, that  someone who is blatantly
handicapped, or perhaps only someone who is  distractingly handicapped,
is a symbol of inferior avodah. Kayin's qorban of  reject vegetables
rather than Hevel's offering of his finest.

HOWEVER,  this just begs the question.

Why not allow the handicapped kohein serve,  and use it as an
opportunity to teach the idea that we are all limited,  finite, and
thus puny in comparison to the task of avodas Hashem. That we all  have
a role to play WRT that which we do bring to the table.

The fact  is that HQBH didn't choose to symbolize this message, but
rather bowed to the  least common denominator of people's perceptions
of the handicapped. And so,  I repeat, that it is not obvious why.<<

Micha  Berger             
 
>>>>>
It is strange that you say HKBH "bowed to people's perceptions" -- as if He  
was forced, like a modern-day politician, to go along with the prejudices of 
the  people.  Did He also "bow" to unenlightened public opinion when He 
excluded  women and people over the age of fifty from the Avodah? (Not to mention  
eleven tribes and gerim, too.)
 
Was He sexist, age-ist and racist as well as handicap-ist?
 
You want to know "Why not allow the handicapped kohein serve, and use it as  
an opportunity to teach the idea that we are all limited, finite, and thus 
puny  in comparison to the task of avodas Hashem."
 
Yup, HKBH missed an opportunity all right.  Just think what He could  have 
accomplished if He had just allowed handicapped kohenim to serve (and women  and 
old folks).  
 
Or maybe there is a different message there, that you are  missing?   
 
And that is, every one of us has a mission to perform on this earth -- but  
we don't all have the SAME mission.  Maybe a woman, an elder -- and yes, a  
handicapped person -- was put on earth to fulfill some OTHER mission that Hashem  
had in mind, besides the Avodah.  
 
Why assume that everyone is fit to do every job?  That is a modern-day  PC 
prejudice of its own -- the assumption that everyone can do anything.   Would 
you want to see handicapped people in the army?  Blind men leading  troops into 
battle, with seeing-eye dogs?  Women in the NBA ?   Elderly quarterbacks 
playing in the Super Bowl?  Old ladies as  cheerleaders?  Rockettes at Radio City 
doing their kicks in  wheelchairs?
 
The Torah is full of exhortations to protect the rights and  the feelings of 
the weak and the vulnerable -- the poor, widows, orphans,  converts.  The 
Torah does provide for handicapped kohanim (not to mention  kohanim who have "aged 
out" of service -- over age 50).  And the wives and  daughters of kohanim.  
All of the above share in the matnos kehunah and eat  the same food as the 
kohanim who are in full service.
 
So what is the purpose of a handicapped kohen, if he can't run up the ramp  
and can't bring korbanos?  Well, he could be a talmid chacham and teach  
others.  He could be a teacher, a guide, a wise counselor.  Or he  could do some 
other job -- he could tend the private vegetable gardens in the  cities of the 
Levi'im. He could be a wonderful father to some young newborn  kohanim!  There 
are lots of things he could do.
 
I once wrote before that the major ideas of both major factions in  America 
--  the liberals and the conservatives -- derive from the  Torah.  The idea of 
hierarchy derives from Torah -- some can serve in the  BHM'K while others 
cannot, the melech can do things that commoners cannot, and  so on.  But the idea 
of equality also derives from the Torah -- not to  favor the wealthy in a 
court case, not to oppress the poor and the widow, etc  etc.  (BTW I can't find 
this post of mine in the archives, if  anyone can remember what the thread was 
and help me find it, I would be very  grateful.)
 
A ba'al mum can't do the Avodah but if he is a talmid chacham, he must be  
treated with the greatest respect and honor.  I am not absolutely certain  what 
the Torah's message is, but it seems to me that at least one message is  -- 
for a handicapped person (or another disqualified person, such as a  Yisrael, 
old man, ger or woman) -- that one should not pine for the other guy's  tafkid 
but should strive to fulfill his own tafkid in this world,  to the best of his 
ability.


--Toby Katz
=============
Romney -- good  values, good family, good hair
Best hope against  Hillary





**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.     
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025
48)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20080205/6c0835be/attachment.htm 

------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avodah@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 25, Issue 56
**************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."