Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 12

Tue, 08 Jan 2008

• 1. Re: 15 different fruits on Tu B'shvat (Michael Makovi)
• 2. Re: Chiyuv l'kabel gerim (Michael Makovi)
• 3. Re: nectarines (was: 15 different fruits on Tu B'shvat) (Elazar M. Teitz)
• 4. Re: 15 different fruits on Tu B'shvat (Liron Kopinsky)
• 5. Re: 15 different fruits on Tu B'shvat (Saul Guberman)
• 6. Rabbi Henkin (Michael Makovi)
• 7. Re: Chiyuv l'kabel gerim (Daniel Eidensohn)
• 8. Re: Parashas Hamelech (Doron Beckerman)
• 9. Re: Rabbi Henkin (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: 15 different fruits on Tu B'shvat (Michael Makovi)
• 11. Re: Parshat hamelech (Michael Makovi)
• 12. Re: 15 different fruits on Tu B'shvat (Dov Bloom)

>It's a relatively interesting challenge to try and find 15 different
fruits with a haEtz beracha >since obviously pineapple, banana,
strawberry etc. don't count. Additionally, one cannot eat all >of the
7 minim since wheat/barley are not haEtz either. In fact, at this time
of year it might not >even be possible unless you either go for very
exotic expensive fruits, or treat different kinds of >oranges as the
different types or to go with fruits like nectarines which a Jew
shouldn't be >making (although eating is fine).
>
> ~Liron

I suggest the exotic fruit route. Go to a large health food type
supermarket, and you'll see rows and rows of basket after basket of
vast amounts of fruits you never even knew existed. My mother has
lamented that Hashem created so many wonderful fruits, of which the
vast majority, the average person, even an affluent Westerner, never
tries. She's commented that of the strange foods she's tried, there
are many she hasn't liked, but she'll be able to tell Hashem she at
least tried it. It reminds me of Rav Hirsch's visiting the Alps so
that he'd be able to answer Hashem in the affirmative when asked about
seeing His wonders.

Mikha'el Makovi

> >R' Mikha'el Makovi:
> > Everyone agrees that we try to dissuade would-be gerim. No question.
>
> Not anymore. There are those who hold that today one should encourage
> spouses of Jews to be M'gayeir, even when they have not expressed interest
> themselves.

Oy vey, of course there are always exotic cases! Rabbi Henkin in
Equality Lost, in his chapter "Converting Children", in which he
concludes it is not adviseable to convert the child of a nonobservant
Jewish father and a gentile mother (despite the halachic permission to
do so), says in footnote 17, "[I]t may be to the benefit of the
Israeli community to convert children adopted in non-oberservant
families." I am not sure, but I suspect that Rabbi Henkin would
approve of Rabbi Berkovits's proposal to accept non-Orthodox
conversions (or conversion candidates) in Israel.

> > Everyone agrees that once a would-be ger is accepted by the beit din,
> > there IS a chiyuv to be m'kabel. No question.

> > See my earlier post regarding Rabbi Henkin, where he is ambiguous
> > whether the chiyuv is only to receive them once they are accepted by
> > the beit din, or whether also there is a chiyuv for the beit din to
> > accept them when they show themselves to be sincere but haven't yet
> > been accepted.

> I don't know what this means - what Halachic status does "acceptance by BD"
> have? He is still a non-Jew, and we have not yet seen any clear sources that
> there is a Chiyuv to be Mekabel him. If you mean that he was already
> Megayeir, that's a different story, although I refer you to the Rambam that
> when Hedyotos were M'gayeir people in Dovid's and Shlomo's time, BD waited
> to see if their further actions proved them sincere.

(I will repeat my quotations of Rabbi Henkin, as no one has responded
to this, and I wonder if somehow it passed through the cracks.)

Neither do I know what this means, or what halachic status acceptance
has - Rabbi Henkin himself is ambiguous. He says (in Equality Lost,
page 89), "Except for the case of a Gentile who repeatedly
demonstrates his sincere desire to convert...beit din is under no
obligation to convert anyone." So it seems there is a chiyuv to accept
any gentile who has shown himself to be sincere in his desire.

But then footnote 12 says, "Beit din's obligation to convert commences
only after a decision is reached to accept the candidate". According
to this, the chiyuv only begins when the beit din decides to accept
him, NOT when he shows himself to be sincere but hasn't yet been
accepted by the beit din.

A possible reconciliation of this contradiction would be if there is a
chiyuv to accept a sincere (but not yet formally accepted) candidate.
Then, this would link with the chiyuv to convert an accepted
candidate, to produce a chiyuv to accept and convert a sincere
candidate.

What we need is more detail from Rabbi Henkin himself, or another
source. Indeed, the footnote continues, "see Bnei Banim [of Rabbi
Henkin's], ibid. [vol 2], p. 141". Anyone have this sefer?

> Is a scan available of this Teshuvah?

Not from me. Sorry. It's on my list of books to buy.

Mikha'el Makovi

 
<fruits like nectarines which a Jew shouldn't be making (although eating is fine).>

     What's wrong with "making" nectarines? They're not the result of grafting.  To quote Wikipedia, "Though fuzzy peaches and nectarines are commercially regarded as different fruits, with nectarines often erroneously believed to be a crossbreed between peaches and plums, or a 'peach with a plum skin', they belong to the same species as peaches. Several genetic studies have concluded in fact that nectarines are created due to a recessive gene, whereas a fuzzy peach skin is dominant. Nectarines have arisen many times from peach trees, often as bud sports."

EMT

 
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>  It reminds me of Rav Hirsch's visiting the Alps so
> that he'd be able to answer Hashem in the affirmative when asked about
> seeing His wonders.
>
> Mikha'el Makovi


This touches on an idea I've been having some trouble with.
Mesillat Yesharim, Chapter on Perishut
Even though it says
' (Yerushalmi Kiddushin 4:12) a man will have to give an accounting to the
Presence for everything that his eyes beheld and he did not wish to eat,
though permitted and able to do so. They adduced Scripture in their
support (Ecclesiastes
2:10), `Anything my eyes asked, I did not keep from them.' " '

the Ramchal still says that it is proper to abstain as much as possible from
all worldly pleasures:
' The undesirable type of separation is that of the foolish gentiles who
abstain not only from that which is not essential to them, but also from
that which is, punishing their bodies with strange forms of affliction that
God has no desire for. What is more, our Sages have said (Ta'anith 226), "A
person is forbidden to torture himself." '


This seems to suggest that the level of Perushut we should be striving for
is basically abstain from anything not absolutely necessary.

Does someone have a good explanation for how we understand this to fit in
with the quote above?

On a separate note, the quote about being asked about "everything that his
eyes beheld and he did not wish to eat" still doesn't seem to require
someone to go to the Alps. Since the Alps are not in front of me now and I
can't see them, I should not be required to use them. However, if someone
were to place a juicy steak in front of me, even if my general practice
might be to abstain from meat during the week, it would seem that I should
eat the steak as it is something I am currently beholding and would
otherwise be refusing to partake in Hashem's good.
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>   From: "Liron Kopinsky" liron.kopinsky@gmail.com
> "...you will need to purchase both red and white wine and 15 different
> types
> of fruits and nuts; five from each of the following three categories:
>
> Does anyone know a source for needing 15 fruits specifically?
>


>
> On Jan 7, 2008 2:59 PM, <T613K@aol.com> wrote:
> The URL you gave was to Hillel, which is a non-Orthodox organization,
> officially non-sectarian but defacto Conservative.  The post sounds like
> made-up Conservative minhag to me.  Tu B'Shvat is the new year for /trees/
> so any fruit whose bracha is "ha'adamah" seems to me to be irrelevant.  Out
> go the pineapples, bananas, and berries.
>

A little research found that this is actually based on a kabalistic work
"Pri Etz Hadar"

Eating 15 different fruits is also significant, since this is the numerical
value of *Yud-Heh*, the Name of God which connects the physical to the
spiritual, between this world and the next world. In the Holy Temple, the
Levites would sing each of the 15 "Shir HaMa'alot" Psalms as they ascended
each of the 15 steps.
From aish.com

*http://tinyurl.com/2mew3q*
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Was [Avodah] Chiyuv l'kabel gerim

>Rabbi Henkin...

I'm not sure how well Rabbi (Yehuda) Henkin is known. He received his
semicha from his grandfather, Rabbi Yosef Eliyahu Henkin, who in turn
was a famed posek and received semicha from the Ridbaz, Rabbi Baruch
Ber Leibovitz, and the Aruch haShulchan, and was called by his teacher
Rabbi I. Z. Meltzer, "my dear and beloved,...your admirer and
friend,...my friend and cherished haGrai'h". Rabbi Meltzer exclaimed
that at 16 years old, during his examination to be admitted at Rabbi
Meltzer's yeshiva, Rabbi Henkin the elder knew Eruvin better than did
Rabbi Meltzer. Equality Lost has the first serious English biography
of Rabbi Henkin the elder.

Mikha'el Makovi

R' Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer wrote:
> I am not looking for sources. This is deliberate on my part. This is 
> so much /seichel ha'yashar/ that I don't want to demean it by an 
> appeal to sources. That being said, and in that vein:
I don't know what you are talking about at this point. 1) I don't know 
what you are actually asserting 2) Are there is fact sources that 
support your position but you don't want to cite them or 3) are you 
saying it doesn't matter whether anyone has ever agreed with your view 
because they are so obviously  correct? It would help to clarify what 
exactly we are dealing with. Having done some research on the topic - it 
is important to clarify the various views of the dynamics of the 
conversion process.

Here are some of the obvious issues:

What does it mean chiyuv?
1) There is a chiyuv for a non-Jew to convert and thus we are just 
facilitating his chiyuv
2) There is a general chiyuv for Jews to accept any sincerely convert
3) there is a specific chiyuv on the beis din which a non-Jew approaches 
to convert him once they are convinced he is sincere
4) There is a chiyuv to accept a non-Jew only when he has started the 
process e.g., mila or tevila

Can the chiyuv be counterbalanced by other factors or is an absolute 
obligation?
1) Since Beis din typically does a poor job of determining his 
commitment to convert perhaps they don't have to convert him
2) If Jews are usually unable or unwilling to fulfill there obligations 
to a ger - can beis din refuse to convert him to save Jews from sin?
3) If the quality of the community deteriorates can the beis din refuse.
4) If intermarriage increases because of converstion can beis din refuse

As a starting point here is the Aruch HaShulchan

*Aruch HaShulchan[1] <#_ftn1>(Yoreh Deah 268:6): *One should not try to 
actively encourage any non-Jew to convert. In fact we should discourage 
conversion as we see in Yevamos (47a): When a non-Jew comes to us and 
requests that he be converted we say to him, ?What is the reason that 
you want to convert? Don?t you know that the Jews in our times are 
persecuted and oppressed, despised, harassed and overcome by 
afflictions?? If he is dissuaded by this then we don?t stop him from 
going away. However if he says, ?I know this and nevertheless I am not 
worthy to join the Jewish people,? he is to be accepted immediately. He 
is to be instructed in some of the minor and some of the major mitzvos. 
If he changes his mind and decides not to convert then let him change 
his mind because converts are as problematic for the Jewish people as a 
skin disease. If he persists than he is to be taught the sin of 
neglecting Gleanings, the Forgotten Sheaf, the Corner and the Poor Man's 
Tithe. (This was done in Israel at the time when these mitzvos were 
practiced so that he should know about them and not say that the poor 
people who come to take the grain are thieves. However in modern times 
these are not relevant. That is why they are not mentioned in the Tur or 
the Shulchan Aruch.) He is also to be instructed concerning some of the 
punishments for transgressing mitzvos. He is told, ?That before becoming 
a Jew if you eat forbidden fats you will not be punished by kares. If 
you profane Shabbos you will not be punished by stoning. However now if 
you eat forbidden fat you will be punished by kares. If you profane 
Shabbos you will be stoned.? At this point, however, this should not be 
done a lot or in great detail. In other words he should not be 
frightened a lot with the negative consequences of becoming a Jew 
because that will of necessity cause him not to become Jewish. He is not 
deliberately frightened away at this point because he has come to seek 
refuge under the wings of the Shechina.


------------------------------------------------------------------------


?? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ??"? ?????? [??.] ???? ???"? ??? ????? ????????? 
?????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ??????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ????"? ????? ?????? 
????????? ??????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? 
???? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? 
?????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ????? [??] ???????? ???? 
??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??"? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? 
??? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ?????"? ?? ???? ?? ???? ?? 
?????? ?? ???? ??"? ???????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ??????? ?? ???? 
???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?????? 
?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? 
??????? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??"? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?? ?? 
????? ??? ???? ??????:

The answer may be that Shmuel was warning them that the checks and
balances which would prevent the king from *abusing* his power  (in all the
ways he mentions) were not really there. That would make the nation
terrified of him due to the immense unchecked power he had.
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On Tue, Jan 08, 2008 at 05:21:27AM +0200, Michael Makovi wrote:
: Was [Avodah] Chiyuv l'kabel gerim
: >Rabbi Henkin...

: I'm not sure how well Rabbi (Yehuda) Henkin is known...

Around the listy's long-timers, quite well. Her is subscribed to Avodah
under <henkin@012.net.il>. The list is available to members (off the
lists.aishdas.org web site) and therefore that's nothing you couldn't 
have gotten yourself. Googling "henkin avodah" would work too.

Why not invite him to reply?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The trick is learning to be passionate in one's
micha@aishdas.org        ideals, but compassionate to one's peers.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

> >  It reminds me of Rav Hirsch's visiting the Alps so
> > that he'd be able to answer Hashem in the affirmative when asked about
> > seeing His wonders.
> > Mikha'el Makovi

> This touches on an idea I've been having some trouble with.
> Mesillat Yesharim, Chapter on Perishut
> Even though it says
> ' (Yerushalmi Kiddushin 4:12) a man will have to give an accounting to the
> Presence for everything that his eyes beheld and he did not wish to eat,
> though permitted and able to do so. They adduced Scripture in their support
> (Ecclesiastes 2:10), `Anything my eyes asked, I did not keep from them.' " '
>
> the Ramchal still says that it is proper to abstain as much as possible from
> all worldly pleasures:
> ' The undesirable type of separation is that of the foolish gentiles who
> abstain not only from that which is not essential to them, but also from
> that which is, punishing their bodies with strange forms of affliction that
> God has no desire for. What is more, our Sages have said (Ta'anith 226), "A
> person is forbidden to torture himself." '
>
>
> This seems to suggest that the level of Perushut we should be striving for
> is basically abstain from anything not absolutely necessary.
>
> Does someone have a good explanation for how we understand this to fit in
> with the quote above?

I'd view it as a machloket. For example, Rabbi when he died said,
"Hashem, it is known before you that I didn't derive a little-finger's
worth of pleasure from the world", or something like that.

There seems to be a machloket between:
(1) Only derive pleasure from what is absolutely necessary. But to
abstain more than this, such as with self-mortification, is a sin. But
also to indulge more than this, is a sin too.
(2) Use the entire world with all its pleasures, but use them in the
proper way. Eat anything, etc., but do so in a proper controlled way,
make a bracha first, etc. Everything in the world, Hashem gave to be
used by us, albeit in a certain way.

Ramchal clearly follows the former. I believe Hovot haLevavot does too.

Whereas I haven't found a modern-type Orthodox rabbi who doesn't
follow the second one.

It is interesting that in Encyclopedia Judaica, under fasting I think,
Ramchal is given as a paradigm for the Jewish view on fasting. But in
the article on Judaism b'klal I think, the author says it is
questionable whether there is a normative Judaism as many have wanted
to write out those whom they see as disagreeing; the author's case in
point is that many want to write out Ramchal from normative Judaism
because of his views on abstention. Obviously, at least the second
isn't an Orthodox author. But it's interesting nonetheless.

In other words, that there is a machloket is unavoidable I think.

> On a separate note, the quote about being asked about "everything that his
> eyes beheld and he did not wish to eat" still doesn't seem to require
> someone to go to the Alps. Since the Alps are not in front of me now and I
> can't see them, I should not be required to use them. However, if someone
> were to place a juicy steak in front of me, even if my general practice
> might be to abstain from meat during the week, it would seem that I should
> eat the steak as it is something I am currently beholding and would
> otherwise be refusing to partake in Hashem's good.

True. But we must put this in terms of Rav Hirsch himself: Rav Hirsch,
throughout his writings, is absolutely enthralled with the ideas of
learning Hashem from nature, and learning about our duties from the
same. In Artscroll's biography of him, it says that when he was about
20, he had a dream where he saw all of nature obeying His laws, and
Rav Hirsch asked, why isn't mankind obeying His laws as dutifully as
the flowers and trees and grass? On Mishlei perek 3 and 8 (From the
Wisdom of Mishlei, perush by Rav Hirsch, page 44), the one used by
Chazal to say that the Torah is the blueprint of the world, Rav Hirsch
waxes about how Hashem created laws for nature and man alike, the only
difference being that the former is obeyed unwittingly and the latter
via free will.

So for Rav Hirsch to seek out nature is peshita.

Also, I would say that even if the pleasure is not in front of you,
maybe you have to indulge in it. I cannot think of a Talmudic maxim,
but I am reminded of my mother, who has said that every exotic weird
fruit she tries, she's glad she'll be able to tell Hashem she did in
fact try it, even if she didn't like it.

Mikha'el Makovi

> I was struck by (Rashi's explanation of) Rav's statement (Sanhedrin 20b)
> that parshat hamelech was to scare the people but that the king did not
> really have the power to do these things.  It's hard to understand how
> Shmuel Hanavi could have said these things to the people if they weren't in
> the king's power. Has anyone heard anything on this (e.g. why this qualifies
> for mshaneh mpnei hashalom)
>
> KT
> Joel Rich

These things aren't in the kings power? I was under the impression
that they most definitely were. After all, our kings did have royal
staffs and the like, no?

But if this isn't the case, then it would seem to me that Shmuel was
telling the people what the king would do - regardless of permission
to do so. I.e., this is what will happen, stam. And we see that our
kings did far worse than what Shmuel said (but not as bad as other
kings of their time - Ahab for example refused to take the plot of
land illegally - a very un-despotic thing to do - until his wife
convinced him). Prohibitions didn't seem to stop them.

Mikha'el Makovi

The Seder Tu BiShvat is not a Conservative/Hillel or a modern non-acceptable minhag " The post sounds like  made-up Conservative minhag to me". It is just Kabbalistic, like saying Brich Shmei, Kabbalat Shabbat, Lesheim Yichud Kudsha Brich Hu U'Shchintei when doing mitzvot and many other minhagim which trace to the circle of the Ariz"l in Tzfat. 

Litvaks, Oberlanders and Yekkim and most Americans may not do it or hold by it, but it is ubiquitous in EY especially among Sephardim. 

The Seder is described  in Pri Etz Hadar which is part of Hemdat HaYamim, a book which help introduce many Kabbalistic minhagim to mainstream Jewish practice. It is especially common among Sephardim and later - Chassidim .  There is a story that the Hiddushei HaRim asked RMM of Kotzk to give a DT at a seder TuBiShvat. Chabad also does it, as do many other Chassidim and many Sephardim from Morocco to Iraq. 

The Seder is first mentioned by a talmid of the ARI"zl who went from EY to Morocco, the Tikun Yissachar. The Hemdat HaYamim is later by nearly a hundred years but is more detailed and popular and well known than the Tikkun Y.

See Magan Avraham OH 131 seif katan 16 - on Tu Bishvat the Ashkenazim customarily eat a lot of fruit of the trees ...  The MA refers to the Tikun Yissachar but not the HHY because the MA was niftar in heh-ta-mag 5443 - (you can remember the MG-A died in heh-taf-MemGimel) which was before the HHY was published in Europe).

The Seder includes 
4 cups of wine - changing in shade from white to white with a little red, half white and half red and finally  red; 
lots of psukim be'shvach Eretz Yisrael;
3 sets of 5 fruits (or 3 sets of 10 fruits) with different categories of KLIPOT  (1 - fruits with klipot like almonds), 2 - fruits where the outside is eaten and the inside is a seed like dates, and 3 - fruits with no shell and no inedible part and no klipot (referred to in the previous posts)   . 
The different categories of fruit have Kabbalistic symbolism ( see http://www.geocities.com/ariebenahum/parasha/tubishvat.html  but the article has numerous inaccuracies )



[re: HHY
There is a whole extensive "pulmus" about the Hemdat HaYamim, written by Natan of Azza - is it Shabtai Zvi oriented of not. The Sheelat Yaavetz questions its reliability, but he looked for Sabateans everywhere. ROY quotes HHY but doesn't always pasken like it.  I read an internal pulmus in Chabad - did the Rebbe rely on the HHY or not? Someone had asked the Rebbe if the HHY should be burned, but apparently the Tzemach Tzedek quoted it.... A scholar whose name escapes me wrote a whole book a recently in Israel rediscussing the questions about HHY and SZ. He claimed that the Yaavetz was wrong. 
Anyway, the HHY is another issue and may have been discussed here on Avodah before.] 





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