Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 153

Tue, 17 Jul 2007

• 1. Re: Required beliefs (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: kesuvah (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 3. Re: kesuvah (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: kesuvah (Arie Folger)
• 5. Re: When was the last korban? (Arie Folger)
• 6. Re: kamztah and bar-kamztah (Arie Folger)
• 7. Re: kesuvah (Arie Folger)
• 8. Re: kamztah and bar-kamztah (SBA)
• 9. TY and TY: (SBA)
• 10. Re: Mourning for the Temple or repenting? (Mordechai Torczyner)
• 11. kesuvah (Ilana Sober)
• 12. Re: Parshas Masei - a few ha'oros (MPoppers@kayescholer.com)
• 13. Re: [Areivim] A Picture Perfect Friday Night (SBA)
• 14. Re: TY and TY: (Simon Montagu)
• 15. last korban (Eli Turkel)
• 16. Re: TY and TY: (Danny Schoemann)

On Thu, July 12, 2007 6:09 pm, Rich, Joel wrote:
:>From <http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/noach2.html>, footnote 53:
:> Rabbi Yosef Engel, Beit Otzar Marechet 1-1: '7, 9. "The seven
:> Noachide commandments are still obligatory to Jews, and their
:> authority derives from their pre-Sinai obligation. The Torah...
:> merely added to Noachide laws..."

: If this literally mean " merely added to  Noachide laws..." -  why
: would we need the concept of there is nothing forbidden to Non-jews is
: permitted to jews?

The concept wouldn't be redundant, it would be a consequence. Why is
it impossible for such issurim to exist, because the Beris Sinai is a
layer on top of Beris Noach.

On Fri, July 13, 2007 9:31 am, Rich, Joel wrote:
: 		Note also that in hilchot mlachim by milchema the Rambam
: says they must be given chance to make brit that they will accept the
: 7 mitzvot - I wonder if there too he means belief as well as action?

Must be, since in this case he isn't merely defining chasidei umos
ha'olam, but the subset of them who qualify as geirei toshav. If CUhA
must obey from belief, al achas kamah vekamah...

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

R"n Menucha wrote:
> Rav Mordechai Eliyahu SHLT"A, in a psak din (found in PDR 11)
> writes that today "haminhag pashut"  that before the giving of
> the get the woman is mochel her ketuba in front of witnesses.

Then why do they bother writing a ketuba to begin with?

Akiva Miller

On Mon, Jul 16, 2007 at 10:03:25PM +0000, kennethgmiller@juno.com wrote:
: Then why do they bother writing a ketuba to begin with?

... and why doesn't this reduce it to an aspachta?

-mi

RAM wrote:
> I'm not clear on what "negotiated settlement" you are talking about.
>
> If you are referring to some sort of payment which is paid when the
> get is given, why does it "silently" include the kesubah? Why isn't
> this made explicit?
>
> Alternatively, if you are referring to payments made in conjunction
> with the civil divorce, then I am VERY confused, because in many
> cases the civil divorce occurs long after the get is given. What
> happens to the kesuba in such cases?

Husband and wife have the right to wait with the get giving/accepting until 
financial issues have been resolved, the Beth Din of America's hope to the 
contrary notwithstanding. Hopefully this negotiating is done is Beit Din, 
though a negotiation between lawyers without litigation is just as fine. 
Litigation in court without hetter archa'ot is, of course, a violation of 
veeleh hamishpatim ahser tassim lifneihem - velo lifnei BD shel AKUM. (or 
whatever the exact wording is - I am quoting from memory.)

Either way, including when the get is given prior to any settlement, seder 
haget includes asking the parties whether they have settled all financial 
issues or, alternatively, are ready to do a get before settling the financial 
matters. Hence, either way, the ketubah is part of financial negotiations.
-- 
Arie Folger
http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com

RAM wrote:
> My knowledge in these areas is sorely lacking, but my impression is
> that the main obstacle to bringing the Korban Pesach, even nowadays,
> is not knowing the exact location of the mizbayach. And this is
> certainly something that was common knowledge for the first years
> after the churban.

This is discussed by the acharonim who dealt with the possibility of 
reestablishing korbanot nowadays. See the intro to Avodah Tamah, where he 
questions all assertions that sacrifices where brought even after 
the 'hurban.

-- 
Arie Folger
http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com

RJRich wrote:
> There's a similar issue where the Roman's sent 2 emissaries to determine
> whether the torah was biased against non-Jews. ?They were taught all of
> torah and found 2 examples but decided not to report. ?Why didn't chazal
> simply leave these out? IIRC R'Bleich explained that ziyuf hatora must
> override pikuach nefesh even on this scale (it was a tape shiur I heard
> years ago so....)

It is from the Maharshal. (B"K 32?)

-- 
Arie Folger
http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com

R'n menucha wrote:
> Rav Mordechai Eliyahu SHLT"A, in a psak din (found in PDR 11) writes
> that today "haminhag pashut" ?that before the giving of the get the
> woman is mochel her ketuba in front of witnesses.

May be in HIS beit din, I never saw it. I have organized several gitin and 
seen several dayonim run the show.

-- 
Arie Folger
http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com

From: "Rich, Joel" <>
..the Roman's sent 2 emissaries to determine
whether the torah was biased against non-Jews.  They were taught all of
torah and found 2 examples but decided not to report.  Why didn't chazal
simply leave these out? IIRC R'Bleich explained that ziyuf hatora must
override pikuach nefesh even on this scale 
>>

What about all the changes made by the chachomim involved with
translating the Septuagent

SBA

From: "Danny Schoemann" <>
>>I once did Marbe Sedra 

'Marbe'??

>>for an enitre year with TY and TY.

That's 'officially' acceptable? Or did u do that in addition to Unkelos?

>> (I've often thought of "publishing" the "vortelach" in Targun 
Onkelus, i.e. where it deviates from strict translation)

I always wondered if there is such a publication, and if not - why not?
The TY has a few VERY interesting pieces - on almost every parsha.

SBA

I wrote:
>>However, perhaps another root of the bein hametzarim practices is a
fulfillment of Zecher l'Mikdash, which the gemara (RH 30a) traces to "Tziyon
he, doreish ein lah" - we are obligated to be doreish (to seek out) Tziyon.
Of course, zecher l'mikdash could also be external and action-based, but the
concept of being "doreish" sounds stronger than that.<<

To which Akiva replied:
>>You're confusing zecher lemikdash with zecher lechurban. The former is
marking mitzvas that were done while the BhM stood and include things like
lulav kol shiva. It is with respect to this aspect that the gemora uses this
posuk. Furthermore, there is no element of aveilus involved; lulav is
performed publicly on YT, and many more proofs. The other zecher is an
aveilus type zecher and exists WRT the events of the destruction. It is not
here that that posuk is used.<<

It is certainly true that Zecher l'Mikdash and Zecher l'Churban lead to
different practices, and the gemara even assigns them different root
pesukim. It is further true that the Zecher l'Mikdash activities involve no
overt aveilus.

However, as I understand it, the two memorials are separate observances that
lead to the same goal: Remembering the Beis haMikdash. Much as Kavod/Yirah
lead to the same recognition of one's parents, and Zachor/Shamor lead to the
same recognition of Shabbos, so Zecher l'Churban and Zecher l'Mikdash lead
to a wrenching of the heart for the loss of the Beis haMikdash, just from
two opposite directions.

Be well,
Mordechai


-- 
Please note my new email address: torczyner@gmail.com

Congregation Sons of Israel, Allentown, PA  http://www.sonsofisrael.net
HaMakor! http://www.hamakor.org Mareh Mekomos Reference Library
Webshas! http://www.webshas.org Index to the Talmud
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When my husband died, no one brought up the question of the kesuvah.
Perhaps because all property issues were dealt with by the lawyer, and
to some extent the bank and investment people, definitely not by beis
din.

I suppose the kesuvah is the sort of question Moshe might have thought
of had he been around, but of course then it wouldn't have been
relevant.

How much money (in modern currency) is the kesuvah supposed to be, anyway?

- Ilana

-- 
Note that this is my NEW email address. The old one will be
deactivated in August. Please update your address book.

In Avodah Digest V23#152, RSBA noted:
> 1) The Baal Haturim on 'Vayachnu beMidbar Sin" (33:11) writes that
originally called Midbar Sin, a Yud was added to the name (Sinai)
after the Aseres Hadibros were given there. (Similar the Chizkuni)
The Tosefes Brocho is puzzled by this as 6 pesukim later we
find "Vayachnu beMidbar Sinai" - which lechoreh shows that
these are 2 distinct locations. <
Kan lifnei n'sinas hadibros, kan l'achar n'sinas hadibros.

> (He also refers to Beshalach 17:1
"Vayovo'u...el Midbar Sin asher bein Elim uvein Sinai".) <
He may be understanding "Midbar Sin" as being between "Eilim" and "Sinai,"
but another way of understanding that pasuq (as per a commentary on 4-33:11
quoted in the Artscroll Davis Edition of the BhT by R'AGold [fn 17]) is
that "Midbar Sin" was an area which stretched from "Eilim" on one end to
"Sinai" on the other end (with the places listed in 4-33:12-15 in between
those two endpoints).  BTW, although I can understand why RSBA wrote
"Beshalach 17:1," the pasuq is 2-_16_:1, and BhT on P'Mas'ei is repeating
what he wrote on P'B'shalach.

> 2) Talking of the TB, on (35:32) "Velo Sikchu Kofer lonus el ir
miklotoy", Rashi and others explain that this refers to a killer beshogeg
who may not ransom his way out of the Ir Miklot.
The TB suggests that it refers to a Meizid who may try to pay his
way out of being chayev meeseh by being allowed in to an Ir Miklot. <
But the rotzeiach b'meizid is the subject of the previous pasuq (and see
RaMBaN and Da'as Z'qeinim ad loc)!

> 3) Rashi (34:8) dh "Mehor Hahor" mentions Antochia, which Artscroll calls
Antioch. Presumably this refers to such a place in Eretz Yisroel.
(Wikipedia has a couple.) <
TY echoes RaShY; TYbU calls "Chamas" T'verya.  (This being Avodah, I won't
make any jokes re the current PA situation, but the meivin may fill in the
gap.)

All the best from
--Michael Poppers via RIM pager
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From: "Zev Sero" <zev@sero.name>
>>> SBA wrote:
>>>> The paintings displayed at art exhibitions usually have a price tag
>>>> attached. I presume that this would not be acceptable even according to
>>>> the most meikil of poskim.
SBA (2):
>> But I think even displaying price tags is problematic.
>> In fact all business advertising on Shabbos isn't 'kosher'


> On what grounds?
> I've seen many parsha sheets etc with ads on them from local businesses,
> which are circulated in shuls on Shabbos, and I've never heard anyone
> object to them.  I don't see the problem.

SA OC 307 discusses Shtaarei Hedyotos which are ossur on Shabbos.
It mentions a separate/additional issur for artwork.

See MB sk 21 and 29, SA Harav s.13 and 15 and AH s. 3 and 8.

Admittedly other matters are also mentioned there and I leave it to the
rabbanim and poskim here to explain it to us and why we seem to ignore
some of those mentioned. But seeing that art galleries are basically there
to sell their works, wouldn't it be more probalematic than say Igeres
Shalom.

SBA

On 7/17/07, SBA <sba@sba2.com> wrote:
> From: "Danny Schoemann" <>
> >> (I've often thought of "publishing" the "vortelach" in Targun
> Onkelus, i.e. where it deviates from strict translation)
>
> I always wondered if there is such a publication, and if not - why not?
> The TY has a few VERY interesting pieces - on almost every parsha.

There's the Yein Hatov by R' Tuvia Wein, which brings every place in
TO, TY and TY where the translation isn't 100% literal, with a
translation back into Hebrew plus marei mekomot and notes.

There's also the Netina Lager on TO by R' Natan Adler (the 19th
Century Chief Rabbi of Great Britain) which is printed in some
Chumashim. As well as places where the translation isn't literal, he
also comments on O's choice of words and points of Aramaic grammar.

<<My knowledge in these areas is sorely lacking, but my impression is
that the main obstacle to bringing the Korban Pesach, even nowadays,
is not knowing the exact location of the mizbayach. And this is
certainly something that was common knowledge for the first years
after the churban.>>

For a discussion of the importance of the place of the mizbeyach see
*http://www.vbm-torah.org/archive/halak57/04mizbea.doc

**Chatam Sofer (among others) discuss the issue - mainly for Pesach .
Among other issues are finding cohanim with geneological records
and the bigdei kehuna

In fact when the Gemara talks about R. Gamliel the assumption it that
it refers to R. Gamliel of Yavne and that korbanot were indeed brought
in the years immediate following the churban. There are even theories
that Bar Kochba rebuilt the bet hamikdash and korbanot were brought.
This is one of the answers to the contradictions between Mesechet Midot
and Joesphus that Middot was referring to Bar Kochba's time.
Of course all of this is very controversial

What seems clear is that after Bar Kochba's revolt Har HaBayit was razed
and Jews were not allowed in Jerusalem for many years (just read a theory
that they returned in the days of R. Yehudah HaNasi) and then korbanot
finally stopped.**
*
-- 
Eli Turkel
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>>for an entire year with TY and TY.
>
> That's 'officially' acceptable? Or did u do that in addition to Unkelos?

For as long as I can recall, I've been doing an Aliya/day with Unkelos
before I remove my Tefilin. A guaranteed way to ensure both timely
Marbe Sedra and daily learning. (This was actually my Dad's idea soon
after my Barmitzva.)

At night I try do it with "something else"; Ramban, TY, Rashi, etc.
This year I tried Ibn Ezra, but between preparing my son for his bar
mitzva and the unfamiliar style of the Ibn Ezra I quit before Chanuka.

- Danny, with 80 days to decide what to do for next years cycle


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